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Author Topic: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet  (Read 4186 times)

Senn Typhos

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Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« on: 15 May 2010, 21:32 »

A thought occurs to me, as I scan through multiple profiles foreign and domestic, of people who RP characters who are currently enlisted with, or at some point served, a military unit or grand-scale military force. This might be a trivial matter, but I feel that immersion stems from full engagement with your character.

So, to that end, assuming military structure hasn't changed much over the millennia... what phonetic alphabet would soldiers use in the EVE universe?

Soldiers on the ground would probably still rely on some communication system that wouldn't be easily misunderstood or garbled by static. But what's the probability that words in the current NATO version we're familiar with, such as India, Quebec, Golf, Yankee, etc. would still be used? Considering the countries used for some of the letters don't exist anymore, and others are terms no longer in use, would the military have formulated a new one? If so, should it just be acceptable to substitute reasonable replacements?

Thoughts, comments, feedback approved, move it if its misplaced, delete it if its unimportant. <3
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Casiella

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #1 on: 15 May 2010, 21:48 »

Already, the terms we see are just "translations". That is, the Caldari don't actually have "ravens", but they do have flying creatures with characteristics similar to our ravens. So I assume that using a common RL phonetic alphabet would serve as a decent approximation.

The primary purpose, at least in pilot comms, is clarity, so as long as you achieve that objective, everything else is extra.
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #2 on: 15 May 2010, 22:45 »

Already, the terms we see are just "translations". That is, the Caldari don't actually have "ravens", but they do have flying creatures with characteristics similar to our ravens. So I assume that using a common RL phonetic alphabet would serve as a decent approximation.

The primary purpose, at least in pilot comms, is clarity, so as long as you achieve that objective, everything else is extra.

Good point. I hadn't thought about the existence of modern world ravens. >>

The Titan names also gave me pause, I came to the conclusion that names like "Leviathan" and "Ragnarok" would just pass down through the ages, with or without their meanings.
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Stitcher

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #3 on: 16 May 2010, 02:57 »

not to mention that different languages will have different alphabets anyway.
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #4 on: 16 May 2010, 03:04 »

not to mention that different languages will have different alphabets anyway.

I guess that makes this even more difficult to figure out. Caldari language might lend itself pretty well, but I don't know about other languages. Then again, if there's a "basic" language, it might be more reasonable that the current NATO version would still suffice.
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Ken

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #5 on: 16 May 2010, 07:30 »

What you're seeing in-game when another character speaks is supposed to be a highly-efficient machine translation from their language to yours.  It's a perk of being a pod pilot that such instantaneous, accurate translation is possible.  There is no common language across the cluster, but for the purposes of RP and writing fiction, using the NATO phonetic alphabet shouldn't offend.  If you found some good EVE universe/neutral alternatives for very Earth-specific entries like "Quebec" and "Zulu" that would add something nice to it, I think.  Say, "Quantum" and "Zed"?

Edit: Another thought would simply be to use the names of the letters in the Greek alphabet all the way through and throw in something unique to distinguish the similar sounds like "mu" and "nu".
« Last Edit: 16 May 2010, 11:04 by Ken »
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Casiella

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #6 on: 16 May 2010, 10:19 »

I wish TonyG had done that instead of leaving "November" as-is in Theodicy.
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #7 on: 16 May 2010, 13:45 »

What you're seeing in-game when another character speaks is supposed to be a highly-efficient machine translation from their language to yours.  It's a perk of being a pod pilot that such instantaneous, accurate translation is possible.  There is no common language across the cluster, but for the purposes of RP and writing fiction, using the NATO phonetic alphabet shouldn't offend.  If you found some good EVE universe/neutral alternatives for very Earth-specific entries like "Quebec" and "Zulu" that would add something nice to it, I think.  Say, "Quantum" and "Zed"?

Edit: Another thought would simply be to use the names of the letters in the Greek alphabet all the way through and throw in something unique to distinguish the similar sounds like "mu" and "nu".

I suppose this is one of those instances in which just choosing something inoffensive would be the best choice. For the purposes of my own fiction, I suppose it wouldn't be insane to just make up an EVE-y alternative for some of the NATO letters.

The Greek wouldn't be half bad either. Thanks again, people. :3
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Ashar Kor-Azor

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #8 on: 08 Jun 2010, 02:05 »

People would still keep phonetic alphabets around, for the sake of evading points of failure and having low-tech solutions to fall back on.

I would suggest that since capsuleers, along with certain persons throughout society, can upload data to their minds, they'll likely construct their own for their social segment, corporation, or even crew - if your crew's the high-tech sort with lots of implants in.

They might use common stuff, mind.

A is for antimatter, B is for blaster, Amarrian vowel sound one is for [appropriate word].

If all else fails, you build it around symbols derived from the shape of the fleshy bits of a person used to make speech-noise :P It was good enough for the Royal Society's attempt at perfecting language, it's probably good enough for your 'I can send picture-mail with my brain to every one of my coworkers, subordinates, or peers' capsuleer.
« Last Edit: 17 Jun 2010, 14:53 by Ashar Kor-Azor »
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Mithfindel

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #9 on: 08 Jun 2010, 02:53 »

As for phonetic alphabet, assuming you don't use older stuff (Greek letter names etc.) you might want to check agent and system names. Though system names don't really work if you need to spell out where to jump. ("Plot route for AC-, repeat Amarr Chaven.")
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Kazzzi

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #10 on: 22 Jun 2010, 02:57 »

In modern RL times, much of the knowledge and events of the past 20000 years has been lost and forgotten. This is because of the limited abilities of our ancestors to keep records. Ancient languages may not have had alphabets, writing material was rare and can burn or dry up or rot, folktales change every time they are passed on.

The future from now is a totally different paradigm as far as records of knowledge are concerned. With today's widespread advanced methods of electronic recording and transmitting, there is no reason why a good bit of 21st century data, like phonetic alphabets, wouldn't survive indefinitely, even after a zombie apocalypse.
« Last Edit: 22 Jun 2010, 03:23 by Kazzzi »
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Kimochi Rendar

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #11 on: 22 Jun 2010, 03:53 »

The future from now is a totally different paradigm as far as records of knowledge are concerned. With today's widespread advanced methods of electronic recording and transmitting, there is no reason why a good bit of 21st century data wouldn't survive indefinitely, even after a zombie apocalypse.

... So long as there is a PC or playback device around to actually read it. :P

In actual fact it could be argued that our ancient ancestors had a much more permanent way of keeping records in that they used to carve things into stone all the time - something we rarely do anymore. In the event of a total collapse of civilization, the vast majority of the records of our society would be lost forever simply because it's stored on magnetic or solid-state hard drives or written on paper. Paper is obviously perishable and even ignoring the fact that a magnetic hard drive will lose it's stored data given enough time, it's completely useless to you unless you have the correct equipment to access it anyway.

/thread derailment.

Back on track, what Casiella said is basically accurate - All the ship names are supposed to be 'translated' as in the Raven example.

To tackle the issue of the titan names or indeed other ships which take their names from 'earth' deities etc such as the Eos or Muninn, the Erebus is named after an ancient Greek god who was supposed to be the personification of darkness. It's likely that the god Erebus does not exist in ancient Gallentean culture, but they may have an entity in their folklore that represented something similar. So while the name is displayed to us as Erebus, it's in-universe name would something completely different.

The Ragnarok (battle at the end of the world) Leviathan (gigantic sea monster and / or Hell's gatekeeper) and Avatar (personification or manifestation of a god) would all follow a similar pattern.

Similarly the phonetic alphabets for each race would be completely different to eachother, and different still from any phonetic alphabet in use today. So simply because it's easier for all involved, I doubt anyone will complain if you used the NATO standard version.
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Kazzzi

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #12 on: 22 Jun 2010, 14:00 »


... So long as there is a PC or playback device around to actually read it. :P


Why wouldn't there be? As our technology evolves we constantly update our methods of storing information. Knowledge today is much much more accessible than ever before and it continues to become even more accessible everyday.

Even with primitive data sources like books, there's millions of copies of huckleberry finn lying around today, whereas 100 years ago there were only thousands of copies, and back in ancient times, there would usually only be a single copy of any stone tablet. Dissemination of knowledge throughout history has increased virtually logarithmically over time and likely will continue to do so.

Because of the ever increasing availability of information, the likelihood of information surviving longer increases. The words 'Raven' or 'Leviathan' might actually survive thousands of years and not just be a translation.
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Mithfindel

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #13 on: 22 Jun 2010, 14:52 »

At the moment, there are still lots of stuff in use that no one really knows how to maintain. Most of the original developers might be still alive, but in a few decades we might have a few systems where no one locally available can even read the programming language they are implemented on. Most important systems get backed up with up-to-date and modern system that are attached to the old hardware with nine inch nails and bubblegum, but there's lots of stuff that will become unreadable once the original equipment braks down, as no spare parts or replacements are manufactured any more.

Though technically, you could read magnetic media with suitable miniatyrized equipment, but would still need to know the encoding of the data, as all old data is without exception encoded in binary, possibly with no standard with contemporary equipment. In addition to this, the data may be compressed with an unknown algorith, obfuscating simple dictionary attacks against replacement ciphers. Modern cryptanalysis can still open these in tolerable time frames, but doing that to a huge amount of data will take some time and resources, specially if the data must be re-encoded to modern formats by manually reading the bits.

This problem is already reality with lots of data. This is partially why there's a growing support of "human readable" data formats - i.e. formats that do not compress the data, and display in the contents in a way that once the very basic encoding (character set) is known, the contents of the file can be read. (For example, the new Word format is a ZIP package with the plaintext, so to read it you only need to know how to unzip the file and then the Windows charset.) I am however rather pessimistic on humanity learning anything from past mistakes. The most efficient modern method of saving data is microfilms, which will preserve for perhaps a few hundred years. CDs in the best case last decades. There is no data on how long DVDs or blue ray discs last, and once we start applying nanotech in storing data, stuff like oxygen breaking in the device and oxidizing it start to have a role. The storage medium and equipment must be maintained and the data continually refreshed in new formats if we want to be able to read it in the future. Assuming the fall of civilization, anything that isn't written on stone tablets inside a durable shelter (such as a pyramid) cannot be trusted. Terran tech might have been preserved with yet unknown very hard and durable materials, though, so in a sci-fi setting we might be able to give the benefit of doubt.

The actual problem is that unless the word is somehow essential, the language itself will be changed. Read the earliest Bible translation available to your language (in the case of English, this means ninth century). Assuming that isn't incredible recent, I bet you don't use the same vocabulary. And the difference in time is only hundreds of years. For the setting of EVE, we are talking about thousands of years. The closest equivalent would be trying to read cuneiform, but the difference is roughly four times more than the time difference from the earliest cuneiform to the current real-life date.
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Kazzzi

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Re: Soldier Characters - Phonetic Alphabet
« Reply #14 on: 22 Jun 2010, 15:28 »

Worrying about how long a data storage device will last assumes that the information it contains will not be copied to a more modern format before it expires. If the past 100 years of data storage technology are any gauge of what the future holds for this field, who knows what could be possible 100 years from now.

The Amarrian scriptures date all the way back to the beginning of the Empire. I'm not sure what format they were originally in, but they still exist. The language they are written in is unreadable to most ( I'm betting on binary  ;) ) but I'm sure many words they contain are still in use.

Advanced data storage technology combined with the sheer amount of ever increasing data sources means that some data should last much longer than modern people understand as normal.

At any rate, based on what little we know of the languages in EVE, is there a way to extrapolate a full functional phonetic alphabet? Would be kinda cool. Until then, yeah, NATO works.
« Last Edit: 22 Jun 2010, 15:36 by Kazzzi »
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