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[Vikarion]

It was a poke at how things will inevitably turn. It's already starting to get ugly. It's nothing to do with stale, it's simply so that there is no way to actually come to a conclusion here.

Ah, didn't realize it was in jest. My apologies.

[Vikarion]

Actually, I'm really enjoying the political discussions here. It's been so long since I've been able to have one without someone resorting to ad hominem, poisoning the well, straw man-ning, or whatnot that it's simply wonderful.

[Havohej]

... also, leftists need to l2brain.

I agree  

<3

e:

... also, rightwingers need to[... ]

On the other hand, I do think this does qualify as a personal attack. Objectively, neither political position has a monopoly on brains. Specific to this forum, generalizing your opponents as idiots isn't a tactic that I have come to expect of your posts, Miz.

That was a joke, Vik, as was my reply.   

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Thing is. Discussion is pointless when the people talking are essentially living in two different paradigms. All that will happen is that people get annoyed.

I think the US political system is essentially broken and corrupt. I also believe that the rest of the world tends to suffer as a result. I doubt I'd ever convince the US conservatives here that this is the case and I doubt that they'd convince me that I am wrong.

Likewise I tend to the view that the current wars in the middle east are criminal attempts to control other people's resources by main force. Also a good way to send surplus population (from the POV of the ruling classes anyway) away to get killed. Again I don't expect conservatives to agree with me nor do I expect they could convince me otherwise.

So what, exactly, is the point of talking about it?

[Kaldor Mintat]

Thing is. Discussion is pointless when the people talking are essentially living in two different paradigms. All that will happen is that people get annoyed.

I think the US political system is essentially broken and corrupt. I also believe that the rest of the world tends to suffer as a result. I doubt I'd ever convince the US conservatives here that this is the case and I doubt that they'd convince me that I am wrong.

Likewise I tend to the view that the current wars in the middle east are criminal attempts to control other people's resources by main force. Also a good way to send surplus population (from the POV of the ruling classes anyway) away to get killed. Again I don't expect conservatives to agree with me nor do I expect they could convince me otherwise.

So what, exactly, is the point of talking about it?

Mirrors my view on it. I enjoy discussions but sorry to say politic/religious ones almost always tend to sink down in to a slugfeast fast..

[Lillith Blackheart]

I think the US political system is essentially broken and corrupt.

What we need is a Monarchy!

I also believe that the rest of the world tends to suffer as a result.

In this day and age that doesn't just go for us, though, it goes for everyone. The whole world suffers at the hands of the whole world. Yay Globalization and necessary evils!

I doubt I'd ever convince the US conservatives here that this is the case and I doubt that they'd convince me that I am wrong.

Depends on the conservative, and how you approached it, I would think. I find most conservatives tend to agree with the above statements, but there is a crazy polarization of the nation.

Likewise I tend to the view that the current wars in the middle east are criminal attempts to control other people's resources by main force.

I wouldn't use the word "criminal". Also the pluralization of wars is upsetting. There's two separate wars going on over there and one of them has fairly noble reasons, and that's Afghanastan. We did have people smash into a building, and we are going after the people who supported those who did it (Taliban and all). Then there's another one over there, that is about controlling other people's resources by force, and that's Iraq.

It saddens me that people conflate the two and say that both are criminal yaddayadda. That's really not the case. One is, one isn't. Though again I wouldn't say criminal.

Also a good way to send surplus population (from the POV of the ruling classes anyway) away to get killed.

Interesting.

Again I don't expect conservatives to agree with me nor do I expect they could convince me otherwise.

So what, exactly, is the point of talking about it?

Because there's more in the world than "Conservative" and "Liberal".

[orange]

I think the US political system is essentially broken and corrupt.

Agreed, things like national political parties, nominated Vice Presidents, and no-term limits on the Senate/House should be addressed!

I also believe that the rest of the world tends to suffer as a result.

I think the rest of the world suffers regardless.
The US, the west is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.  If the west keeps out of the internal affairs of various other nations, history will look back and say "why didn't you do anything?"  If the west decides to involve itself, it is blamed for any failings that happen.

Likewise I tend to the view that the current wars in the middle east are criminal attempts to control other people's resources by main force.

War is always about the flow of resources and power, ideological excuses boil down to resources and power.

In the case of the Mid-East, the control the west seeks is stabilization of oil prices and allies in the region who will not jump on-board another OPEC price hike.  The degree of global interconnects means that even though the US may not get its oil from the Mid-East, its allies and major trading partners do.

Now, this being said reducing the west's dependence on oil near-term is critical to not caring about the stability of the Mid-East and withdrawing our men, material, and money from the region.  I, as a "conservative," fully support withdrawing from the Mid-East entirely, so long as everyone in the West can agree that we aren't going to go back in 10, 20, 50-years.

Also a good way to send surplus population (from the POV of the ruling classes anyway) away to get killed.

If it was an attempt to "send surplus population away to get killed," then the ruling class is failing horribly and expending entirely too much money on protecting the "surplus population."

The cost of equipping a Grunt is $17,500 before you start to include all the supporting equipment and actors.

Total Coalition Casualties to date (not casualties this year) is a little less than 6,500.  In 2009 alone, 33,963 people died in motor vehicle accidents in just the US.

Simply put there are more effective, cheaper ways to deal with a "surplus population."

But hey, if you think it is about getting rid of surplus population, so be it.  There are those who believe 12 men have not walked on the moon and that Elvis is still alive.