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[Casiella]

The newspaper is a "WHAT IF". 

No.. it was some pretty far-left propaganda is what it was.  You should've expected that not everyone would sigh wistfully with rainbows in their eyes after reading it

This. I've moved steadily left over the years, but Havo is exactly right on.

[Natalcya Katla]

Idealism is awesome, it makes for great songs. And without it, the entertainment value of history would plummet. 

...but it is horribly impractical taken beyond a very minor level.

Or very lucrative, to the right people.

Regarding war, contrary to popular belief, the world has never been more peaceful than it is today when viewed in regards to the size of the human population. Statistically speaking, the chance of any given human dying at the hands of other humans is utterly microscopic compared to what it used to be, once upon a time.

And it's an ongoing trend. Even counting both world wars and all the smaller ones, the 20th century was more peaceful than any century before it in recorded history, when measured against population size. I believe the biggest reason why we perceive our own times as being so violent is because we now get every war spoon-fed to us through the media - unless it happens in Africa, that is.

And media will keep feeding us news about people killing each other, and we will keep paying them to do so. Because, despite every moralist wagging their finger to the tune of the contrary, people killing people is, has always been and will always continue to be great entertainment.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

The newspaper is a "WHAT IF". 

No.. it was some pretty far-left propaganda is what it was.  You should've expected that not everyone would sigh wistfully with rainbows in their eyes after reading it

It was far left by the standards of a US political system that is truly the best government money can buy. Come to that calling what the US has a government these days is a bit of a joke. It just changes hands from one set of corporate interests to another. It is far left by the standards of a right-wing that is either deranged enough, or dishonest enough, to call to call a mainstream corp operator like Obama a socialist.

[Kamiko Hautala]

Is there a way to move this thread to the political thread I made? This is perfect for it, and I don't want to be known as the controversy poster. 

[Casiella]

I'd submit that some of the ideas on that site are fairly progressive even by European standards.

[orange]

Here are some interesting headlines in response:

"War ends; 500,000 more unemployed!"

"Salary Cap Law; brain drain accelerates"

"Taxes up to fund Government Programs"

I read most of the items presented there and go "please no, not an even larger Federal government."

---

As for Iraq & WMD; he thought and acted like he had them, his soldiers thought he had them*, our intelligence sources said he had them (including foreign intelligence), and he used to have them and used them.  You act based on what you know at the time; not what you know after the fact.

*Marine Platoons on the ground during the invasion had Iraqi Brigades surrendering to them.  The Iraqis barely had uniforms and almost no water (in the desert!), but what they did carry was Gas Mask.  When asked why the Iraqis responded that they were not worried about the Americans using WMDs, but rather Saddam using them and getting caught in the crossfire.

[Havohej]

It was far left by the standards of a US political system

Dunno if you've noticed this, but Europe in general is pretty far left...

[Casiella]

I have noticed but I'm unaware of any major European nation that limits maximum wages to 15x the minimum.

[Havohej]

The ability to write propaganda isn't dependent upon things that have already been 'achieved', though.

[Casiella]

Sure, which is consonant with what I said: that's further along the spectrum than Europe currently sits.

In the interest of sticking to the guidelines, I can't say much more on the subject of war and conflict at the moment.

[Kamiko Hautala]

Here are some interesting headlines in response:

"War ends; 500,000 more unemployed!"

"Salary Cap Law; brain drain accelerates"

"Taxes up to fund Government Programs"

I read most of the items presented there and go "please no, not an even larger Federal government."

---

As for Iraq & WMD; he thought and acted like he had them, his soldiers thought he had them*, our intelligence sources said he had them (including foreign intelligence), and he used to have them and used them.  You act based on what you know at the time; not what you know after the fact.

*Marine Platoons on the ground during the invasion had Iraqi Brigades surrendering to them.  The Iraqis barely had uniforms and almost no water (in the desert!), but what they did carry was Gas Mask.  When asked why the Iraqis responded that they were not worried about the Americans using WMDs, but rather Saddam using them and getting caught in the crossfire.

There is ample evidence that intelligence reports didn't know if Saddam had WMDs, and I could fight you to that 'till the death, but I won't go there. Also, your 500k unemployed number isn't probably for a war ending.

Additionally, I don't support salary caps, and though some programs in the fauxpaper are a little too left for me, salary caps aren't going to come. Tax caps are different.

[orange]

There is ample evidence that intelligence reports didn't know if Saddam had WMDs, and I could fight you to that 'till the death, but I won't go there.

You don't know if the guy acting like he has a gun in his pocket actually has a gun in his pocket or a banana, but I think most people would respond as if he had a gun in his pocket.

Also, your 500k unemployed number isn't probably for a war ending.

So, how many people are employed by the state-building effort?  How many of them would return home to reclaim jobs they left vacant for years only to find them occupied?  Do we see a reduction in military spending to go along with the "return"?  How many jobs are tied up in supplying ammo, replacement vehicles, augmenting training, supplying replacement parts, etc?

I may have exaggerated the number, but the return of troops is not the end of the story.

[Mizhara]

Requesting topic lock.

What started as a fun and cool 'alternative timeline' post, is now reduced to leftist vs rightwing. It's not going anywhere pleasant.

... also, rightwingers need to l2brain.

[Vikarion]

Requesting topic lock.

What started as a fun and cool 'alternative timeline' post, is now reduced to leftist vs rightwing. It's not going anywhere pleasant.

I don't think anyone here has violated any of the forum rules, or even the spirit of said rules. I modified a post that might have been close, even. Do we really want to establish a policy of ending a discussion simply because we think the subject matter is "stale"?

... also, rightwingers need to[... ]

On the other hand, I do think this does qualify as a personal attack. Objectively, neither political position has a monopoly on brains. Specific to this forum, generalizing your opponents as idiots isn't a tactic that I have come to expect of your posts, Miz.

[Mizhara]

It was a poke at how things will inevitably turn. It's already starting to get ugly. It's nothing to do with stale, it's simply so that there is no way to actually come to a conclusion here.