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[Jade Constantine]

Eve might be a posthuman cultural melange, but it's players and creators are from the real world.
Therefore, it's fine to criticize the sexualization of characters from a real world standpoint.

Not sure I understand your point here completely. Surely the point of any (most) roleplaying game(s) is to suspend ones out of character standpoints and cultural preferences in favour of those make believe background elements from the game itself? I cannot really see how critical analysis of scifi Eve sexuality and mores from the perspective of contemporary earth cultural bias is any more useful or pertinent then perhaps criticising the collective delusion that makes office workers and IT professionals convince themselves they are bloodythirsty space pilots and warlords of the future? Sure perhaps its basis for academic study or media fascination, but as a useful discussion of RP preferences ... Hmm, I'm not really convinced.

Prior to the Jell-O match, someone suggests Pieter tear off Ava's shirt to show her boobs. No one suggested Ava tear off Pieter's briefs to show his dick.

Why? Because they're not people from a far flung future. They're a bunch of modern day people siting in front of computers and the content they create reflects that.

Or maybe none of the roleplayers present were gay/bi or playing male gay/bi inclined characters? And as for modern day people's preferences on these things .... Have you watched the starz tv show "spartacus" that's one of the most splendidly over the top hyper sexualised beefcake blends of homo/straight eroticism I've ever seen and its been wildly successful tv for the creators. It's modern day people paying subs and watching that show.

[Makkal]

We're going to drift seriously off-topic if we start talking about 'the point' of RPing and how that concerns depictions of gender and sexuality.

Would you like to start a second topic and continue the conversation there?

Otherwise, I suspect a Catacombing will suck our posts into the netherworld.   

[BloodBird]

Posts don't get cata'ed for being off topic.

They do however, get new treads, unless you make a new one yourself.

[Jade Constantine]

We're going to drift seriously off-topic if we start talking about 'the point' of RPing and how that concerns depictions of gender and sexuality

In a thread about "space lesbians" and how they are depicted/viewed by the community ?

Honestly not sure it needs a split.

(Happy to defer to the ops preference though)

[Lithium Flower]

'Going nuts' is not the norm.

One might argue a theocratic state of trillions is the veritable epitome of the phrase ...

The whole Europe for like a thousand of years was theocratic "state".
Religion is just a part of world-view. It is a philosophy, a substitution to thing that you cannot test or prove scientifically. It is a desire to understand the world without knowing the facts. And it is in human's nature.

Anyway, then everyone is nuts. Those, who believe in religion. Those, who believe in atheism. Those, who believe in ideals of communism. Those, who believe in ideals of democracy. Those, who believe their "fuhrer". And those, who believe nothing and just work as machines. Or do other stuff like rabbits. And eventually those, who play online games instead of growing crops. We all are nuts. Especially space lesbians.

[Jade Constantine]

'Going nuts' is not the norm.

One might argue a theocratic state of trillions is the veritable epitome of the phrase ...

The whole Europe for like a thousand of years was theocratic "state".
Religion is just a part of world-view. It is a philosophy, a substitution to thing that you cannot test or prove scientifically. It is a desire to understand the world without knowing the facts. And it is in human's nature.

Anyway, then everyone is nuts. Those, who believe in religion. Those, who believe in atheism. Those, who believe in ideals of communism. Those, who believe in ideals of democracy. Those, who believe their "fuhrer". And those, who believe nothing and just work as machines. Or do other stuff like rabbits. And eventually those, who play online games instead of growing crops. We all are nuts. Especially space lesbians.

I think there is a significant area of difference between doing naked jellybean dances with your preferred erotic sexytime partner and mandating that everyone else on the continent must do likewise or face censure, sanction, torture and potential burning at the stake you know ...

Nice rant but not sure theocratic/fascist/communist/centrist/nutbag dehumanising tyranny is quite the same as ribald salacious hip jiggling and gender ambivalence on your average pride march.

Unless you believe it's going to send you to hell I guess.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but it's been going an awful long while now, so... Eh.

As both a woman and a lesbian, I will admit - And I don't claim that the reaction is based on any completely reasonable or logical premises and is probably largely personal bias I should work on - that I have a gut level negative reaction to men who play lesbian characters.

Don't get me wrong. That's not a universal statement. I've seen some do it absolutely fantastically, and many others at least realistically and inoffensively. But I've also witnessed so many frighteningly upsetting hypersexualised caricatures that take a key element of my identity (more then that, one that I've faced discrimination and been mocked for) and turn it into essentially a cheap fantasy, that, well...

It's hard to not get a bit cynical.

And, of course, there's the fact that I often get lumped into the same catagory as them for merely representing my own sexuality. I'm not really sure who should, or can, be blamed for that, though. If anyone.

[Ava Starfire]

That being said people who don't spend that time and effort to develop themselves and appear out of thin air to wave their desires for space lesbian sexychats in everyone's face uninvited will be met with ridicule ammunition on full broadside from me.

Funnily enough in the posthuman cultural melange of eve online (influenced admittedly from my enjoyment of the culture novels and similarly sexy scifi Utopias) I find it far easier to believe the characterisation of lesbian / bi / gay / transgendered / fetish / queer / kink / whatever sexychats without prior background development and accredited RP certificate of approval, than I do the average tyrannical space warlord or knuckle-dragging religious extremist.

Guy comes from nowhere and claims to be a hotshot dangerous pirate or übermerc, alliance warlord etc and I am extremely cynical about that characterisation because most likely they never anything to earn the rep. I'm being asked to give credence to something I highly doubt has basis in game reality and that's something I do find a bit jarring (see my many past RP scandals and wars and whatnot).

On the other hand I see a couple of neon facepaint wearing space lesbians making out with fruit bowls, hair clips and dog collars in the Holofeed and that does absolutely nothing to break my suspension of disbelief or to damage my immersion in the setting. On the contrary eve is (was) as seedy, adult, beautiful tacky world of weird and wonderful sexuality and blade runner visuals with human life as cheap as the morals, ethics and general disposition of its population. Star Wars cantina scene with more dildos, spiked collars and poppers basically.

This is the game world where the most esteemed Amarrian cleric of the early years kept naked golden slave children in cages for heavens sake... It's always been pretty ripe.

I guess the summary is that sexytime space lesbians work for me as believable background to a space age posthuman vision of the ultra rich near immortal capsule pilot caste. Certainly far better than tough guy pirates who mostly run level 4 missions and would dare say boo to a goose in lowsec. Then again I have always loved futuristic orgy scenes in racy scifi movies

I lol'ed. This is a good point, though, that in ANY group of RPers there are the "Look at me" sorts, from Amarrian slavers who prove how commanding and powerful they are by taking it out on slaves, to Minmatar freedom fighters who howl about the above RPer's behaviour at every chance. All of them are equally ridiculous to the "I am super kinky space lesbian, who wants to tie me down touch my bits?" and all of them usually get onto my block list pretty fast.

[Ava Starfire]

[..]women also seem to have a larger slice of the roleplaying community than the game's population at large.

That might just be my own perception, mind you.

That is also my perception. I was surprised to see that in the "Show Yourself" thread revealed a surprising proportion of female players. I'd say the slice of female RP-ers is about 15-25%.

Prior to the Jell-O match, someone suggests Pieter tear off Ava's shirt to show her boobs.

Actually, it was also during the match, and Ché was totally expecting Ava to wear a bra. He said nothing about boobs.
...
Wait...when Ava was upside down...she was wearing underwear underneath her skirt, right?

Yes, Ava was wearing a 1 piece bathing suit beneath the ridiculousness, for any who wondered.

[Lithium Flower]

Nice rant but not sure theocratic/fascist/communist/centrist/nutbag dehumanising tyranny is quite the same as ribald salacious hip jiggling and gender ambivalence on your average pride march.

With all due respect, and accepting the fact that I am not very skilled in english, I recommend you to understand meaning of the word "tyranny" before using it. Because it is not of english origin and existing in many other languages.

In all these theocratic/fascist/democratic/communist and many other societies where homosexual relations are judged, it comes not from tyrant, but from the society itself. Besides, just having theocratic/fascist/democratic/communist etc society does not imply existence of the tyrant at all.

Besides, even in such societies tyrant (if exists) can be a hidden lesbian 

[Creep]

Prior to the Jell-O match, someone suggests Pieter tear off Ava's shirt to show her boobs. No one suggested Ava tear off Pieter's briefs to show his dick.

Why? Because they're not people from a far flung future. They're a bunch of modern day people siting in front of computers and the content they create reflects that.

Or maybe none of the roleplayers present were gay/bi or playing male gay/bi inclined characters? And as for modern day people's preferences on these things .... Have you watched the starz tv show "spartacus" that's one of the most splendidly over the top hyper sexualised beefcake blends of homo/straight eroticism I've ever seen and its been wildly successful tv for the creators. It's modern day people paying subs and watching that show.

Yeah...no. Anglophone Cultures are not host to a post-heteronormative society IRL. Not by a long shot. Not yet, anyway.

I agree entirely with Makkal on this: Many RPers — but not all! — are so used to cultural tropes they live with that it doesn't even occur to them to alter them in their RP.
For example, characters still speak. Why? In a hyper-digitalized future with fluidrouter coms and nigh-telepathic implants, why are people still using their mouths to talk, rather than just eat and maybe do some humming? (I suspect that there ARE some characters who don't speak, but I suspect that this is a major character trait, rather than something that's about as notable as, say, an iPhone). Verbal communication is slower and takes more effort than brainwave-texting.

Or, say, the cosmopolitan-type Gallente (rather than home-planet dwelling Jin Mei or Mannar who may be more traditional) seeing genitals as inherently sexual. Or something that is inherently sexual being something to keep private. Casual public nudity as something that is awkward. PF suggests that these attitudes are no longer the societal norm in the Federation, just as an example. Not everyone is walking around with their entire body on display, but Fed citizens don't find those who do to be a novelty — not even an acceptable novelty — but rather are a subculture like goths, punks, or hipsters are today.
[Note: I am not defending the people who jump into a Role Play situation and start waving sexual topics in people's faces. Natural Conversations tend not to flow like that, and for Sexuality to be that mundane, it would also stop being a defining characteristic (and become something about as important as eye-color). This is another piece of evidence supporting Makkal's assertion of Presentism in RP.]

Which leads me to...

Eve might be a posthuman cultural melange, but it's players and creators are from the real world.
Therefore, it's fine to criticize the sexualization of characters from a real world standpoint.

Not sure I understand your point here completely. Surely the point of any (most) roleplaying game(s) is to suspend ones out of character standpoints and cultural preferences in favour of those make believe background elements from the game itself? I cannot really see how critical analysis of scifi Eve sexuality and mores from the perspective of contemporary earth cultural bias is any more useful or pertinent then perhaps criticising the collective delusion that makes office workers and IT professionals convince themselves they are bloodythirsty space pilots and warlords of the future? Sure perhaps its basis for academic study or media fascination, but as a useful discussion of RP preferences ... Hmm, I'm not really convinced.

I could be wrong, but I think, Jade, that you're misinterpreting what Makkal is saying (Or maybe I'm the one misinterpreting Makkal's statement!).
I think she's saying that Modern Day Players are going to play their Future People in a Non-Future way (and it's mostly not their fault, so that's fine).
BUT, that it is also equally fine for us to criticize these Modern Day Players when they give their Future People the sexual tropes of Modern Day People, rather than portraying their Future People as having Future Attitudes towards Sexuality.

(Her wording is, I admit, somewhat ambiguous.)


Also, whip Pieter's trousers off next time, Ava, thanks in advance.

[Aria Jenneth]

I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but it's been going an awful long while now, so... Eh.

As both a woman and a lesbian, I will admit - And I don't claim that the reaction is based on any completely reasonable or logical premises and is probably largely personal bias I should work on - that I have a gut level negative reaction to men who play lesbian characters.

Don't get me wrong. That's not a universal statement. I've seen some do it absolutely fantastically, and many others at least realistically and inoffensively. But I've also witnessed so many frighteningly upsetting hypersexualised caricatures that take a key element of my identity (more then that, one that I've faced discrimination and been mocked for) and turn it into essentially a cheap fantasy, that, well...

It's hard to not get a bit cynical.

And, of course, there's the fact that I often get lumped into the same catagory as them for merely representing my own sexuality. I'm not really sure who should, or can, be blamed for that, though. If anyone.

Though I understand that Gwen's remarks may be difficult to answer, I would like to see others' thoughts on this.

[Makkal]

Gwen's thoughts are much like my own.

As a queer woman, having my sexuality reduced to someone else's sucks on a gut level.

Likewise, the idea that someone might criticize me for making 'yet another space lesbian' is infuriating. And to tie this to the original post, yes, when I first heard the term 'spacelesbian' I assumed it was an insult and had bad feels.

[Ghost Hunter]

I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but it's been going an awful long while now, so... Eh.

As both a woman and a lesbian, I will admit - And I don't claim that the reaction is based on any completely reasonable or logical premises and is probably largely personal bias I should work on - that I have a gut level negative reaction to men who play lesbian characters.

Don't get me wrong. That's not a universal statement. I've seen some do it absolutely fantastically, and many others at least realistically and inoffensively. But I've also witnessed so many frighteningly upsetting hypersexualised caricatures that take a key element of my identity (more then that, one that I've faced discrimination and been mocked for) and turn it into essentially a cheap fantasy, that, well...

It's hard to not get a bit cynical.

And, of course, there's the fact that I often get lumped into the same catagory as them for merely representing my own sexuality. I'm not really sure who should, or can, be blamed for that, though. If anyone.

Though I understand that Gwen's remarks may be difficult to answer, I would like to see others' thoughts on this.

I am not certain what your intent is, Aria?

Gwen's position to me is 'complete', so I am not certain what thoughts could be expressed that aren't simple agreements.

[Natalcya Katla]

I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, but it's been going an awful long while now, so... Eh.

As both a woman and a lesbian, I will admit - And I don't claim that the reaction is based on any completely reasonable or logical premises and is probably largely personal bias I should work on - that I have a gut level negative reaction to men who play lesbian characters.

Don't get me wrong. That's not a universal statement. I've seen some do it absolutely fantastically, and many others at least realistically and inoffensively. But I've also witnessed so many frighteningly upsetting hypersexualised caricatures that take a key element of my identity (more then that, one that I've faced discrimination and been mocked for) and turn it into essentially a cheap fantasy, that, well...

It's hard to not get a bit cynical.

And, of course, there's the fact that I often get lumped into the same catagory as them for merely representing my own sexuality. I'm not really sure who should, or can, be blamed for that, though. If anyone.

Though I understand that Gwen's remarks may be difficult to answer, I would like to see others' thoughts on this.

This is perhaps a bit of a wishy-washy answer, but...

I would say having this kind of gut reaction isn't wrong, unreasonable or anything of the sort. It's perfectly understandable. On the other hand, I don't believe a roleplay environment where nobody ever gets their OOC comfort zones intruded upon is something to aim for. All my female characters are straight, at least as far as they've gotten romantically involved with others, but I know for a fact that some of them have invoked OOC reactions of discomfort due to their IC words or actions. I have also experienced such discomfort myself with regard to others.

If I were to give advice, I suppose the best I can offer is to not necessarily try to get rid of the gut reaction itself, but rather try to look past it and judge characters on individual merit - which it seems is the case already. Those who turn out to not merit such a benefit of doubt, if you will, can be blocked if they get too grating. vOv