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[Ghost Hunter]

I have mixed feelings on the subject. I enjoy the idea events could be pushed forward where maim kill burn is not the LCD. Not being able to kill the Republic delegates, one could feasibly come up with another way to impact the event. Holding freighters full of slaves hostage comes to mind as an interesting diplomatic nightmare... On the other hand maim kill burn is the most popular LCD that gets the most attention from the widest pool of people. Not giving the option to suicide super rare ultra shiny ships can be seen as quite damning.

In general, I agree with some particulars of CCP Eterne's post. Emphasis the bolded part.

In the end, we did not think that making these guys killable added much to the storyline. If you killed some random NPC who we've never mentioned before and we then replace him with another random NPC we've never mentioned before (or simply say "He cloned!") I'm not sure how that creates interesting interaction beyond "These groups came to disrupt the procession". It's the same for just having them sit in a station the entire time (and that's also far less visually impactful). Either way you cut it, the actions are purely ceremonial.

[Myyona]

Sounds like a highly interesting event.

Though, it also sound like one of those events where game mechanics (NPC - PC interaction) likely will have problems supporting the task. As example, given the normal game mechanics (suicide ganking) Amarr loyalists could blow up someone important, though it should be pretty much impossible immersion wise (CONCORD would pay special interests to events like this making security tight as hell OR Minmatar authorities simple lock off the system for capsuleers OR important person uses civilian crafts that does not show up on capsuleer scanners. Plenty of options.)

Furthermore, the appropriate retaliation from the Republic is not supported game mechanic wise either nor would the "loyalists" even know/care if Jamyl would support this important guy death or not.

Compared to this scenario, I much rather prefer the actors using equipment out of reach for normal players as I have a much better time believing that the empires are not handing out their best equipment to capsuleers.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Was reading the thread in the Live Events forum about this, and I have to post here and agree with a goon that posted his common sense idea. Falcon should have used a supercap, instead of using a devtanked battleship. An officer fit Hel or Ragnarok with a full Minmatar only fleet support would have been far more impressive anyways.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Was reading the thread in the Live Events forum about this, and I have to post here and agree with a goon that posted his common sense idea. Falcon should have used a supercap, instead of using a devtanked battleship. An officer fit Hel or Ragnarok with a full Minmatar only fleet support would have been far more impressive anyways.

This.

The hel is one sexy beast.

[Alizabeth]

Was reading the thread in the Live Events forum about this, and I have to post here and agree with a goon that posted his common sense idea. Falcon should have used a supercap, instead of using a devtanked battleship. An officer fit Hel or Ragnarok with a full Minmatar only fleet support would have been far more impressive anyways.

They could have used an unfitted super and it still would have been ungankable.    Add a tech 2/capital tank mods and that's just icing. 

[Myyona]

True. In this case a super capital would have been the answer.

[Korona]

I genuinely don't see a reason why this was conducted as a live event when it could've simply been made a news article (or series thereof), which would have given it precisely the same storyline impact without the gross violation of the sandbox's integrity.

At the least, there's no shortage of alternatives to simply throwing GM mods onto ships that are transporting capsuleers anyway. If the primary intent was to have a non-combative but discursive event, then they could easily just have started it with the delegates already in Pator. (f. ex. These capsuleers are the chosen representatives of trillions of Minmatar and they can't get jump clones set up?)

[BloodBird]

My feelings on this is a bit mixed as well.

When I tagged along with the MXD fleet to assist the Sebeistor delegate, I was seriously concerned for our lack of logistics, as I assumed this would go down one of two ways - the delegates were uber-tanked to the max and borderline unkillable, or they were not, and god and every man would show up to kill the delegates for shits and giggles, along with any possible dev-actor led Imperial or Sansha strike to do the same. I was seriously concerned that we would be hopelessly out-gunned and fail the escort mission.

At this point I hoped they were practically indestructable. Then, minutes before we took off we folded our fleet into the EM fleet and noticed they had plenty of logistics to guard the delegate(s). Ofc, at this point I was not so concerned for our success anymore, but we kept getting reports of - who else - goons trying strike the delegates in their typical "destroy any event ever" routine, so we stayed sharp the whole way and kept on guard. Then we heard confirmations that the delegates were practically immortal, and I was honestly a bit relieved, and a bit disappointed at the same time.

On one hand, my presence and that of all the other "we showed up hours ago and planned for this all day" protectors were now pretty much irrelevant, but on the other hand an event of this IC importance wasn't going to be blown up for lols by the whole of EVE smelling blood in the water and fancy kill-mails.

In the end practically no legitimate enemies showed up and no organized assaults took place, AFAIK. We came, saw, escorted, listened, enjoyed and disbanded for home again.

I have to echo Lareise' in this however, if they won't use the uber-tank mods anymore this means, either by design or happenstance, that the Minmatar event was the only one to be guaranteed to run over smoothly. I can only imagine when an event like this happens again and say, President Roden shows up outside Villore to greet an arriving fleet guarding a bunch of senators or whatever where half of said senators have been ganked by pretty much everyone. Especially considering that the delegates specifically said they were not allowed to join any fleets, this will make effective defense so much harder.

I can enjoy an event that don't actively involve anyone or anything being purposefully blown up - after all it's not always about the violence and so on - but you can always rely on your player base trying to do so anyway, if only because people love to blow shit up and be an annoyance whenever possible, and the perfect then would be to rely on other players to prevent this. Sadly, EVE is not perfect, as we all know 

[Adreena Madeveda]

Concerning the beginning of the story : I really like it, mostly because it gives republic loyalists characters hope... And, as a player, I hope this glimpse of a brighter future will be smack down or corrupted in inventive and interresting ways.

Concerning the event, and the "ccp put a concrete bunker in the sandbox" discussion : as a tabletop gm, I've seen many campaigns ending prematurely because of famous last words such as "Ah ! You know what I say to the king ?" or "Oh yeah ? Well, I shoot him !" Him being, say, an important representative of some megacorp. I try to give my players as much freedom as possible, and freedom means accepting the consequences of your actions.
But in Eve, there's no such thing as consequences : our characters can't be imprisonned, they can't die, they can't be harmed in any meaningful way -they just lose ships and isk : big deal.

If, as a gm, I set up an important event, I'd prefer my players to be part of it, in a way or another. Because they'll probably screw things up and there'll be consequences ; mostly because it's one of the things that gives players the feeling that their characters are belonging to the game's world. Oh, and more often than not, the Very Important NPC/Event I lovingly crafted is simply ignored by the players, and the random guy I created on the spot becomes a central protagonist.
As a roleplayer in eve, would I like to see meaningful consequences for our characters' actions ? Of course. But I'm not sure we can ask it from CCP, because CCP simply can't provide it. They have to handle thousand of players rather than half a dozen, they have to handle characters who can mightily laugh at anything ressembling a consequence.

So... They're railroading us. They could have made this meeting a simple news flash, they could have made the npcs' ships destructible and said npcs escape in pods, I'm pretty sure there would have been a Live Event thread where players would have shaken their fists at CCP because "What ? Railroads in my sandbox ?".
Since railroads are probably the only way for CCP to provide us with a story, well... the best they can do is try to give us the feeling we're participating.

[Ciarente]

But in Eve, there's no such thing as consequences : our characters can't be imprisoned, they can't die, they can't be harmed in any meaningful way -they just lose ships and isk : big deal.

CONCORD could always cancel the pilot's licence of any pilot attacking persons of sufficient importance i.e. megacorp CEOs, Tribal Leaders, Senators etc ...

That would provide meaningful consequences ...

[Nicoletta Mithra]

You see that license cancellation isn't really a viable path? Well, maybe, if they change the EULA...

[BloodBird]

But in Eve, there's no such thing as consequences : our characters can't be imprisoned, they can't die, they can't be harmed in any meaningful way -they just lose ships and isk : big deal.

CONCORD could always cancel the pilot's licence of any pilot attacking persons of sufficient importance i.e. megacorp CEOs, Tribal Leaders, Senators etc ...

That would provide meaningful consequences ...

Yes, consequences like people never showing up to live events again out of fear that if they do it "wrong" their accounts will be forcefully terminated. Players will quit the game in droves because it won't be a sandbox anymore, it will be a railroaded game where you play as CCP dictates, or else.

Having said that, I am not sorry to say I am enjoying the bitter-I-did-not-get-to-gank-the-dev-actors from all the Goons in this tread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=205176 Their concerns are legitimate, but there are better ways to communicate them, I'm sure you will agree.

Players have a right to be angry that a sandbox is not quite so sandboxy anymore, but let's face it - there are plenty of players out there that don't give a damn about the the background universe, or anything other than blowing up as much as possible, and dev actors of "famous people" are very juicy targets indeed.

When I fear right now, is that since Falcon has pretty much stated that the unbeatable dev mods won't be used again, the next set of events with actors will see the actors dead and the event arc terminated because it's far easier to gather 30 or more tier3 BC's to alpha down anyone they please than for another 30 people in logistics (the only means of active defense that don't involve direct counter-attacks) to guard them. This all but guarantees that the very next actor involved event is fucked.

I for one do not look forward to hearing how a 50 man Imperialist fleet sat by helplessly and watched their remote repairs do nothing to stop an Heir's Imperial Apocalypse from exploding due to 100 goons or whoever alpha-striking it, while on tours in his own domains.

The only way to prevent this is to make sure alpha-stiking is not possible, and more timed assaults are needed - and won't get you CONCORDED - thus requiring the attackers to engage the defenders and neutralize them. At least then if 100 attackers end up killing the Apoc anyhow, they had to chew through the mentioned 50 defenders first, that way it would be a meaningful struggle at least, instead of taunts in local ala "har har, killed yo dood" after the strike.

[Lyn Farel]

Honestly, if you do not want your NPC shot down, don't make them undock, period. It is no surprise that players are complaining otherwise... 

Interesting event anyway, for the time minmatar players have waited for that to happen...

The head of state could have used a body double. He could have survived on an escape pod. He could have traveled on an escort ship, while the big fancy ship was actually a decoy. He could travel in a covert ops ship.

There are many ways to avoid the death of a major actor NPC, whether they are a capsuleer or not, without simply making them invincible. Actor NPCs don't have to be stupid. They can expect ganking, and plan around it.

Yes definitly, but I think that people would still complain since it would be quite stretched.

"Wtf ? It was a decoy ? Of course, how convenient !"

[Alizabeth]

As to my compatriots.  They were upset.  Powers put in a lot, a lot of work into getting things in place for our op, people alarm clocked, etc.  Hell, I saw Russian Goons online for this.  They felt cheated and rightfully so.  Their posts reflected that anger.  Hell, I raged pretty hard in Live Events when I found out what happened. 

Also, to make the ships ungankable, there were a few suggestions in the thread, MJD, target breaker, etc.  Or, in the future, make things happen in a cynojammed (and make sure that fact is well known) low sec system.  That way the defense fleet can really play defense. 

I applaud Falcon deciding against using the GM mods in the future (I hope he still reads this forum).  This does not have to mean every live even ends in killing; just that in the future, creative steps should be taken to ensure that players at least feel like they had the chance to change the outcome.

There's a trick called magician's choice.  It would have worked well in this case.  Basically, no matter what actions were taken, the outcome would have been the same, but people would have felt better about it.  The MiniLuv guys could have cared less about the news article that came out at the end as long as they had a TTI kill to point to.  If they'd had the illusion they made a difference, that would have stopped a lot of the whining.

[BloodBird]

First law of EVE online Lyn, of course I'm aware of this.

It's just very simple. If a Dev actor get's blown up in a massive fight evolving out of something they did or had to do, that's one thing, but in today's EVE pretty much anyone getting blown up, if the assailants wants them REALLY dead, there is but one universal answer; Alpha-stike.

In yesterday's event, if the actors were not near unkillable, a few of them would likely have exploded with ease. So the two extremes to be avoided, then;

Actors are impossible to kill. (Dev mods)
Actors are impossible to defend. (Sufficient alpha damage.)

The only way get around this would be to have some dev mods on the ships that would, say, give a Dev's BS the EHP of a well-tanked Dread, and allow them to be shot by anyone without CONCORD intervention - that way it's not so terribly easy to bring them down, and logistics can play a meaningful role, but they are not unbeatable, so that an escort or whatever is a valuable addition.

Ofc the problem then is that the defenders and attackers will need some way to fight each other as well, this can likely be achieved by getting anyone shooting at a dev actor flagged for limited engagement, and attacked by the defenders, the defenders are then flagged to attackers, and so on. OR have one dev 'lead' the defenders one one 'lead' the attackers, pre-flagging either groups to the other.

I dunno, many ideas, but it's up to CCP. I'm just on the view that as much as I don't want my sandbox violated, if it's so easy to kill any events as it seems to me, there is hardly any point showing up as an assister - you are bound to fail by default anyway. These two extremes HAVE to be avoided at any cost to maintain immersion and interest in doing them.