Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Samira Kernher]

I've often wondered how the concept of Godflesh would affect being a capsuleer Holder in the Empire.

I always thought capsuleers due to being cloned were generally regarded as something to almost be abhorred and reviled in the Empire? How do such people then become Holders and expected to be religious and holy when others think they are impure?

Even Jamyl Sarum had to construct the whole, "Returned from the dead not through cloning but God's miracle" line just to sit on the throne, right?

I was under the impression this only went so far - that is, Emperor/Empress, Heirs, directly below Heirs, directly below the below Heirs, and maybe one more link down.

Once you get to "I am the holder of a Small city and a minor region on this here planet ruling a couple million people" are you really Nobility in the full sense? You are definitely not royalty, but do you have to be a Noble to be a Holder? Are the two the same, Nobles losing nobility when not holders, Holders gaining Nobility when they become Holders, etc.

As an example, Jesmine believed her soul to be lost after being podded in combat (She graduated long before the 'you get popped in the noob-quests' thing came along) and had back-lashes due to this, but she was among the most minor of minor holders around, barely holding anything of any worth. Is the God-flesh doctrine Royalty-only or does it cover the nobility as well, and in that case, is everyone that hold the title of Holder also Nobles by default?

The decree is for royal flesh only, namely the Emperor and the heirs. It doesn't apply to anyone below that, even Holders. Though I imagine it "trickles down" such that those beneath them would still see cloning as impure and would want to emulate the decree in order to be closer to God. But the only ones the actual decree itself applies to are royalty.

Also, all Holders are nobility. Even minor Holders would still be nobility. As would their offspring and immediate family, as you only have to be related to a Holder to be nobility. It's a feudal structure, just with much fewer titles. Being nobility doesn't mean you're wealthy or powerful, it just means you are of high birth--that is, born into a Holder family.

Holders and nobility

Though all Holders are nobility, it is not true that all nobility are Holders. A Holder's entire family, even distant cousins and aunts and uncles, are considered nobility, but only the title owner himself is considered a Holder. This is sensible, once the status of a Holder's children is considered. Only one can receive the title of Holder, but it would be unthinkable for the others to suddenly become commoners.

Such children are known as non-titled nobility. They frequently become theologians, professors, judges, military officers, or other acceptable noble lines of work. This is considered beneficial to the Holders, as their relations serve as important contacts within the Imperial bureaucracy.


Former Holders

A Holder can be stripped of his title for any number of crimes. These crimes are normally religious in nature, such as insulting the Empress[13], refusing an Imperial law[8], heresy, or any number of other offenses. Rarely, a Holder may be stripped of his title or demoted to a less prestigious title by an Heir for failure to adequately perform his duties.

A Holder who has been stripped of his title becomes a commoner, as does every member of his family. In the event the Holder has committed a heinous crime, he and his family may be enslaved. Former Holders are prized slaves among Holders, who view them as trophies.[10]

Due to there being only very few titled Holders in any immediate noble family, who rule over large swathes of territory, it's likely only a handful of slaves have actually met their Holder. Most slaves would have likely been spread out in custodianship to the Holder's various relatives and favored subjects. Which gives a lot of room for non-Holder slave owners.

[Sepherim]

Hadn't thought about how so many slaves wouldn't know their Holders, but it does make sense.

[lallara zhuul]

I doubt that the Holder Oath carries over Death.

Hence making people that have been cloned unable to hold to their oath of fealty through the process.

Unlike in 'more civilized' societies where your assets can be given to another legal entity for the duration of your death and delivered back to you after you unfortunate event.

I doubt that an Oath carries over.

Especially since there is no way of determining that there is the right informorph in the flesh bag.

The Godflesh taboo is probably from the time that the Amarrians dealt with the cloning issues back when they dealt with Takmahl heresies, where this exact problem rose up.

Who knows, maybe the Mad Emperor was some slave who jumped into his skin after he choked on a chicken bone?

[Gabriel Darkefyre]

It's been Clarified a bit with Regards to the Legality of Capsuleers holding Slaves

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2550701#post2550701

Quick Version would seem to be that it's legal for any Capsuleer, regardless of whether they're a Holder or Not, to own a Slave in the Empire because they can be purchased on the open SCC Market.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

However, the lack of comment "on the social, moral, or ethical implications of capsuleers of non-Holder birth who own slaves" means it's rather frowned upon by proper Amarrian society.

Dirty eggers!

[Uraniae]

I think in the end the amount of holders and nobility is sort of still up in the air and open to wide regional interpretations.  As has already been pointed out, real world historically speaking, there are cases of a noble land owner making tiny titles as rewards for service.  A feudal system is practically designed for that to happen.  So the Tash-Murkon family's heir and Holder might "hold" sway over the entire Tash-Murkon region while owing fealty to God, Empress, and Empire as a whole.  Similarly the Tash-Murkon heir has probably divided the region up to Constellation level Holders, who might grant title to System Holders, who might grant title to Planetary/Orbital Holders, all the way down to small scale Continental or planetary region Holders.  In each case the Holder above could be "sacrificing" part of their own holdings to give title to a trusted servant, creating a minor noble that would most likely be an ally in court, while also still being sworn to fealty to them.

It does seem entirely plausible to me.  Heck there are probably instances throughout Amarrian history of some petty Holder elevating a subordinate out of spite to try and see them fail.  Sort of giving them a horrible little Holding that is rife with problems.  The Holder would essentially be washing his hands of the problems by being able to say he put someone else in charge of the area, so if the new little lord or lady fails it's no loss to the Holder and they get the gratification of putting an upstart in their place.  Of course if this situation has occurred somewhere in the Empire, then it's possible albeit rare, that the new lord might succeed.  For all we know this could be the story behind some of the truly bitter Holder feuds.

[Laerise [PIE]]

As baseliners, yeah I understand that only Holders were allowed to own slaves, but that got a little murkier as a capsuleer. 

I suppose Mit may have to quickly 'purchase' a small Holdership, disperse her herd, or run   with the Custodial Servitude Contract thing.

Well, if you do disperse your slave herd, I will offer 100 ISK, 50 strippers, and 100 bottles of booze for your manservant/hairstylist slave named "Aldrith".

I raise this offer to 1.000.000 isk, 100 exotic dancers and 200 crates of spiced wine!

[Samira Kernher]

It does seem entirely plausible to me.  Heck there are probably instances throughout Amarrian history of some petty Holder elevating a subordinate out of spite to try and see them fail.  Sort of giving them a horrible little Holding that is rife with problems.  The Holder would essentially be washing his hands of the problems by being able to say he put someone else in charge of the area, so if the new little lord or lady fails it's no loss to the Holder and they get the gratification of putting an upstart in their place.  Of course if this situation has occurred somewhere in the Empire, then it's possible albeit rare, that the new lord might succeed.  For all we know this could be the story behind some of the truly bitter Holder feuds.

There are definitely instances of it. The Ardishapur Family was given the Ammatar Mandate in the hope of seeing Yonis screw it up due to his conservative bent. Of course, the plan failed.

[Esna Pitoojee]

So, it is not an issue when Holders place their slaves on an open, entirely uncontrolled market. It is not an issue when individuals of "all social standing" decide to purchase off that market.

It is, however, an issue when people who don't have Amarrian ideals in mind decide to buy off this open market.

Social or legal status does not matter. Intent, apparently, does. Right...   

[Lyn Farel]

That's weird. Amarrian market is strictly regulated (as any baseliner market) and slaves are only to be sold between Holders and slavers.

Since the SCC is CONCORD regulated, the Amarr Empire has very little power on the capsuleer market, where slaves can be sold to anyone.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Well, this might look like a paradox situation, but maybe it is. Many Amarrian capsuleers can't probably buy slaves for their own enterprises on the planetsides, Empire-internal markets, as they aren't holders. Still, I'd guess, the Empire would like them to make use of Amarrian station designs etc. which are in a way dependent on slave labour by design (apparently). So, they have to bit the sour apple and allow holders to get some good money for slaves they put on the "open" capsuleer market.

That the 'wrong' people may buy those slaves off the market is the flip side of the payoff equation, I'd guess.  So, selling slaves on the open market might not be really a good solution in the Empire's eyes, but one that offers the only available optimum to solve some problems with regard to slave/labour distribution?

Also, since Amarrian holders are under no obligation to sell slaves on the capsuleer market, they do effectively control a large chunk of the slave market that is available for capusleers. And then the Empress could always hand out an edict banning slaves from being sold there. So, the Empire still has a big thumb on that 'free' market - the only thing they can't control is who buys the slaves and what they are doing with it.

But then, if they notice that some EM contact is buying large quantities of slaves off the capsuleer markets  of the Mandate, nothing is stopping them to sell loads of slaves there that are firmly indoctrinated in the Amarrian religion and faith and who are prepared to work on spreading that once brought over to the Republic.

[Streya]

Since the SCC is CONCORD regulated, the Amarr Empire has very little power on the capsuleer market, where slaves can be sold to anyone.

This seems to be the case with all the markets in every section of space. In my mind, at least, the capsuleer market is almost entirely separated from the baseliner, except in few cases where NPC corps buy/sell from capsuleers. This actually makes sense, because if a capsuleer could manipulate the prices of basic things like foodstuff and planetary vehicles and real estate all it would take is one troll to completely ruin a planet's economy. So we're given a little SCC market to play with while the NPC factions have their own markets to work with; the only times they're linked is when you can buy/sell with NPC corps, mission rewards, LP store purchases, etc.

Case in point, open the reprocessing screen for a faction mod sometime. RF Gyrostabilizer costs a capsuleer around 60 million ISK last I saw, yet it doesn't require 60 million ISK's worth of materials to build; the prices capsuleers pay are determined by other capsuleers, which in turn is determined by the availability of those things. Chances are we have to pay extravagantly for a module most NPC empire ships are probably fit with simply because of the time-grind associated with it on the capsuleer side of business. Slaves are no different either; you can get them from other capsuleers who find them in missions, or from NPC corps. Chances are, selling slaves on the capsuleer market is probably quite lucrative because the seller in question could charge a huge markeup in comparison to selling to other baseliners and get away with it. I could definitely see Holders going through financial troubles putting up slaves on the SCC capsuleer market with this rationale kept in mind.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I could definitely see Holders going through financial troubles putting up slaves on the SCC capsuleer market with this rationale kept in mind.

And risk having EM (or a Sansha, or a blooder) buy your slaves? Keep in mind, the Amarr Trade Registry "has records of all transactions within Amarr space and also monitors all foreign trades and investment made within the empire."

Assuming we take the above statement at face value, selling slaves to an enemy of the Empire -is- going to be noticed - and, indeed, again raises some pretty serious questions about why trade of slaves on capsuleer markets is not more heavily limited in the Empire.

If the above statement is incorrect, it seriously needs to be revised - the idea that all trade in the Empire is monitored and regulated is a fundamental concept that a lot of us Amarr types run on, and if that's been ninja-changed out from under us, we'd rather like to know.

[Lyn Farel]

That's not what I meant. That's perfectly logical for capsuleer markets to be mostly isolated. What is weird is that Amarr authorities allow baseliner sell orders of slaves on the capsuleer market. We can of course find justifications for this, but it just sounds far stretched to me. That they can't do anything for capsuleer trade, sure, but that they can't do anything for their own baseliners going to sell shit on SCC markets, well... Just weird. I don't buy that.

I could definitely see Holders going through financial troubles putting up slaves on the SCC capsuleer market with this rationale kept in mind.

And risk having EM (or a Sansha, or a blooder) buy your slaves? Keep in mind, the Amarr Trade Registry "has records of all transactions within Amarr space and also monitors all foreign trades and investment made within the empire."

Assuming we take the above statement at face value, selling slaves to an enemy of the Empire -is- going to be noticed - and, indeed, again raises some pretty serious questions about why trade of slaves on capsuleer markets is not more heavily limited in the Empire.

If the above statement is incorrect, it seriously needs to be revised - the idea that all trade in the Empire is monitored and regulated is a fundamental concept that a lot of us Amarr types run on, and if that's been ninja-changed out from under us, we'd rather like to know.

The Trade Registry records may well be only about baseliner markets though, but that's not like SCC markets were all about confidentiality either. They must be blind if they do not see that their own corporations are selling tons of slaves here.


EDIT : that's nailing what has been bothering me since the beginning with that Freedom Extension event. That was eventually just a "hey look we took slaves from there and you can't do anything about it since we exploited an obvious loophole that everybody do not even seem to give two shits about". I expected legal issues arising from the Mandate contact and instead only got "We don't know where these slaves come from since they are on capsuleer markets but that's a violation of our territory !".

"Huh what ? Actually, no, buddy. It's not and I can't support you on this."

Actually it makes it interesting in another way since I can thank the Ammatar contact by telling him to shove it and continue playing the incompetent (since that's what the Ammatar have always been good at anyway). Except I won't of course unless I want to commit a factionnal seppuku. "Uhm, hello, I actually think that your Freedom Extension buddies were in their right." 

This whole event renders me completely confused about it eventually, since it's mostly about a capsuleer transfer of slaves like you can make everyday with your RP buddies. Except they would have to face the customs when entering Republic space. So instead they use a NPC actor that can bypass that.

Can I smuggle my drugs through NPC actors to avoid customs too ? :sarcasm:

[Streya]

Oh, I agree that it's odd how baseliners in the Empire/Mandate can apparently sell slaves openly and to anyone on the open market; it is mechanically impossible to filter who can buy from you on the market, unfortunately. There might be legal loopholes involved, of course, which allow a Holder selling slaves on the open market to essentially get around any Trade Registry auditing. Remember that the market system in EVE essentially acts like an escrow, a trusted third party if you will. Person A puts something up for sale, and that "something" is kept in the custody of the escrow. Later on Person B deposits money into the escrow service in order to buy that something, and the escrow completes the transaction. If we imagine Person A to be a Holder selling slaves on the SCC market and Person B to be a Blood Raider capsuleer, the Holder could always decry the morals of the SCC. "But I was supposed to be able to trust you!", they might say. And indeed some of them might be genuinely shocked at where their slaves ended up going and face social ostracization from their peers, without facing any formal legal consequences. Others might be in positions of high enough power or desperation to not care. This would certainly go along with the "grimdark" view of New Eden CCP likes to paint.

Of course I'm not the one who's been roleplaying Amarr for years. What do you guys think?