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[Ava Starfire]

PIE rejected my application. Therefore, theyre meanies.

[Natalcya Katla]

Meanies can get titles, too. 

[Mithfindel]

I could assume that, like the contract hinted by the NPC, knighthoods and/or religious orders could keep slaves essentially in trust in the name of a Holder or other authority acting as a kind of a "fount of honour". Or rather, a "tap of honour", ultimately tracing his authority back to the Sacred Throne via a Heir - "church" institutions would probably consider the Emperor to be their patron, and have her authoricy channeled via the leader, who may or may not be a Holder by his or her own right.

As for corporations, still would need a Holder patron, who would make a contract, probably a trade between responsibilities on taking care of the slaves in return for a share of their work. Whether or not religious education is the responsibility of the corporation or the Holder would, then, depends on the contracts.

As for player Holders, we may be nearly certain that several PIE Admirals - Golan Trevize would perhaps be amongst the best bets as a receiver of the Cross of the Sacred Throne and the Mamet 500. Memory would indicate that Golan is also Ni-Kunni, though a quick search revealed only that Siobhan's manner of dress in probably not Righteous.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

PIE rejected my application. Therefore, theyre meanies.

Its ok Ava, just keep trying.

I belieb n u!

[Mitara Newelle]

PIE rejected my application. Therefore, theyre meanies.

"Admiral Mitara Newelle-Shutaq, CEO PIE Inc, Rejecter of Starfire, Meanie."

I like it!

[Louella Dougans]

Also: A commoner can't be a holder, by definition. A commoner might be elevated to holder status - but than he ceases to be a commoner.

Yeah this definitely.

There was a trend within the RP community for a while (which I immensely disliked) of splitting holders into two categories

Holders (uppercase) being actual nobility
holders (lowercase) being anyone that held slaves.

This always bothered me, and I'm rather glad to see the PF didn't go in that direction.

Why did it bother you ?

[Saede Riordan]

Also: A commoner can't be a holder, by definition. A commoner might be elevated to holder status - but than he ceases to be a commoner.

Yeah this definitely.

There was a trend within the RP community for a while (which I immensely disliked) of splitting holders into two categories

Holders (uppercase) being actual nobility
holders (lowercase) being anyone that held slaves.

This always bothered me, and I'm rather glad to see the PF didn't go in that direction.

Why did it bother you ?

I felt like it cheapened the title of actual Holder. There were a lot of pirates and outlaws and cultists and so forth claiming to be holders because they owned slaves, and that just struck me as weakening the status of people who actually wanted to RP Amarrian holders.

[Silas Vitalia]

Also: A commoner can't be a holder, by definition. A commoner might be elevated to holder status - but than he ceases to be a commoner.

Yeah this definitely.

There was a trend within the RP community for a while (which I immensely disliked) of splitting holders into two categories

Holders (uppercase) being actual nobility
holders (lowercase) being anyone that held slaves.

This always bothered me, and I'm rather glad to see the PF didn't go in that direction.

Why did it bother you ?

I felt like it cheapened the title of actual Holder. There were a lot of pirates and outlaws and cultists and so forth claiming to be holders because they owned slaves, and that just struck me as weakening the status of people who actually wanted to RP Amarrian holders.

Pirates, outlaws, and cultists can only be former holders by definition, and would certainly not have legal titles to own those kinds of things.  Not that that's ever stopped anyone...

[Louella Dougans]

Well, I'm seeing people acting like they're going to use this as a stick to beat Leopold Caine with.

And indeed, to beat other players with, arguing that they aren't Holders, or should be busy on their estate, rather than being in space.

So, I'm not yet convinced this is good for RP.

[Silas Vitalia]

Like I said, small handwavium is completely valid when PF is amended and clarified.

I will support anyone who needs to make retcons for this.

[Alizabeth]

Is anyone not going to go along with a retcon?  Even I'm not that much of an asshole, and I'm a goon.

Wait a second . . . .

To all involved.  Welcome to the nobility.  Remember, whip your slaves daily to ensure good obedience.  Oh, and follow Grange's example, if someone does something wrong, mass executions are warranted.

[Samira Kernher]

Well, I'm seeing people acting like they're going to use this as a stick to beat Leopold Caine with.

And indeed, to beat other players with, arguing that they aren't Holders, or should be busy on their estate, rather than being in space.

So, I'm not yet convinced this is good for RP.

I'd imagine that non-noble Amarr capsuleers owning slaves is something the Empire would typically turn a blind eye to, despite it technically being illegal. Similar to the Ammatar Mandate, where it only became partially legal after years of simply being ignored by the Holders/Imperial government. Therefore, there wouldn't really need to be a retcon for such individuals. If they really wanted to be proper legal slave owners without being nobility, then the Custodial Servitude Contract seems like a pretty easy fix for that. About the only thing they can't do is refer to themselves as actual Holders... a better name would probably be Custodian. Though I imagine the holder title could still be tossed about informally.

As for "should be on their estate", one would assume that any Holder would have significant administrative staff, and that the Holder can easily delegate the direct governing to his staff. Afterall, capsuleers can already manage planetary colonies from space, no reason a Holder capsuleer can't do the same with their own holdings. Could even use a planetary colony in-game to represent a minor holding.

Additionally, it is stated that Holders spend the majority of their time managing their private business ventures... something many capsuleers are likewise doing.

[Synthia]

No need to do anything, I'd say.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holders

Traditionally, Holders are the sole legal owners of slaves within the Empire. However, the situation has become significantly murkier in recent years.
 Many capsuleers of Amarr descent use slave crews and others regularly engage in the slave trade and slave ownership. Some have privately grumbled about the erosion of Holder rights and responsibilities, but others have welcomed the increased revenue provided by capsuleers in purchasing slaves.

Holders also occasionally sell individual holdings and titles in order to finance businesses or cover debts. They can also be transferred as the result of legal grievances. Holders can willingly transfer titles to other members of the nobility. Though such acts always require the approval of their ruling Heirs, such things are typically granted as a matter of course.

I don't believe the quote from the MIO actor affects anything to an extent requiring large retcon actions to be taken. The MIO actor is only stating the traditional position.

[Gesakaarin]

I've often wondered how the concept of Godflesh would affect being a capsuleer Holder in the Empire.

I always thought capsuleers due to being cloned were generally regarded as something to almost be abhorred and reviled in the Empire? How do such people then become Holders and expected to be religious and holy when others think they are impure?

Even Jamyl Sarum had to construct the whole, "Returned from the dead not through cloning but God's miracle" line just to sit on the throne, right?

[BloodBird]

I've often wondered how the concept of Godflesh would affect being a capsuleer Holder in the Empire.

I always thought capsuleers due to being cloned were generally regarded as something to almost be abhorred and reviled in the Empire? How do such people then become Holders and expected to be religious and holy when others think they are impure?

Even Jamyl Sarum had to construct the whole, "Returned from the dead not through cloning but God's miracle" line just to sit on the throne, right?

I was under the impression this only went so far - that is, Emperor/Empress, Heirs, directly below Heirs, directly below the below Heirs, and maybe one more link down.

Once you get to "I am the holder of a Small city and a minor region on this here planet ruling a couple million people" are you really Nobility in the full sense? You are definitely not royalty, but do you have to be a Noble to be a Holder? Are the two the same, Nobles losing nobility when not holders, Holders gaining Nobility when they become Holders, etc.

As an example, Jesmine believed her soul to be lost after being podded in combat (She graduated long before the 'you get popped in the noob-quests' thing came along) and had back-lashes due to this, but she was among the most minor of minor holders around, barely holding anything of any worth. Is the God-flesh doctrine Royalty-only or does it cover the nobility as well, and in that case, is everyone that hold the title of Holder also Nobles by default?

Also, a little of topic, I don't think any player that are not part of the Empire and claim to be Holders will be affected much by this, pro-Empire players would already claim that they are not proper holders or that they were rogue, all this will do is add some weight behind those claims. Said rogue Holders are still perfectly free to ignore their claims and go on with whatever ideas they want to hold to, regardless.