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[Seriphyn]

Perhaps an interesting debate regarding the world of EVE is the exploration of the relationship between nation, state, and civilization with regards to the four main factions (and perhaps others) in New Eden. It must be noted that the idea of a "nation-state" (along with the idea of citizenship) is an inherently Western idea, and the oft-limiting but nonetheless unavoidable ethnocentrism present in the interpretation of PF thus shapes our views of the empires when it comes to this topic. It's also somewhat problematic in the sense that these are planetary concepts being applied to multi-planetary entities; it could be said the topic is useless to explore then, but for the sake of discussion, I'm going to share some ideas anyway.

Nation-state, quite obviously, infers the union of the nation and state. Britain or England would be the nation; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would be the state. The UK can be said to be complex due to the presence of multiple nations yet one nation amongst its stately borders. England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales are the nations, and then there is Britain, which some may say is also a nation, while others will argue that it is just a state. The Hapsburg Empire is another example; Austria before 1914 was a state, not a nation. The nation is ethereal; the state is not.

Many nation-states outside of Europe are suffering from domestic troubles due to the imposing of this 'nation-state' idea onto cultures that do not share the concept. Afghanistan, for example, is neither a nation nor a state, yet it has been constructed artificially to be both. Then there is the People's Republic of China, which has rejected the Western idea of the 'nation-state' and become something more of a civilization-state; the continuation of the ancient Chinese civilization via the contemporary mechanistic construction of a state. With the idea that the 'nation-state' is thus a Western idea, how would the four major factions of EVE approach this topic?

The Amarr Empire is perhaps a good example of a civilization-state. It is the continuation of the ancient Amarr civilization from their island across multiple different systems. I would argue it is not a 'nation' because that infers the existence of other nations, for which, I reckon, were simply not considerations before first contact with the Gallente Federation. Its existence as a 'state' would perhaps only apply after the Gallente-engineered modern diplomatic system emerged with CONCORD, which specifically identifies four or five 'nation-states' as sovereign entities.

The Minmatar Republic would be a great example of imposing the idea of a nation-state onto a civilization/culture that does not subscribe to the idea (at least originally; the PF identifies many Minmatar who reject tribalism and instead support the Republic). It falls apart due to the lack of information about how the tribes are regarded domestically, and the subjective nature of their definitions. Can each of the tribes be identified as "nations", even when "nation" infers an ascension from traditional tribalism? That question is asked through the interpretation that these tribes are similar to Earth ones. I would perhaps subscribe to the idea that's already been brought up in PF (Minmatar Nation vs Minmatar Republic), that "Minmatar" itself is the nation made up of seven tribes, with the "state" the Gallente-imposed idea of the Republic (of which would not exist otherwise).

The Caldari State is interesting, too. You have a band of eight megacorporations that identify as Caldari. Perhaps the Caldari State is the nation and the eight megacorporations are the states? There is also the complex issue of states in the Federation that identify as Caldari, throwing up the true claim to the Caldari nation (the State will naturally try to claim it the rightful successor of course).

The Gallente Federation appears to be a union of nation-states, and specifically seems to identify the 'nation-state' as the only acceptable standard for a culture or civilization to abide by. This seems to be the inherent troubles the Gallente have within their borders; it's more than likely that just as Earth's idea of the 'nation-state' is Western, that New Eden's idea of the 'nation-state' is a Gallente construct. The Federation thus has the issue of trying to impose the 'nation-state' on all of its constituent parts, the idea that a nation is civilized once it has become a state. It seems to have withdrawn from this practice (at least overtly) with the ascension of the Jin-Mei, who appear as a nation or civilization.

Concluding, I don't think the idea of 'nation-state' can be applied to the Amarr, Caldari, or Minmatar, or even the Federation (except when you look at its constituent parts). The Amarr are a continuous civilization, the Minmatar a nation of seven tribes, and the Caldari an anomaly due to its megacorporate format. I brought it up nonetheless, because we use the term 'nation-states' to describe the four empires, when none of them truly are. Of course, this is just an Ivory Tower discussion; they will nonetheless be referred to as 'nation-states' due to the inherent requirement of keeping such concepts at a ground level of entry, and not make them incessantly complex for consumers of the PF. At least from the outset; I think it's definitely a point of complex discussion in-character, for example. Perhaps we can assume that the idea of CONCORD being potentially seen as an extension of Gallente political ideology is what has created the idea that the four empires are 'nation-states'; it's just that there are no attempts (at least no successful ones) by the Gallente to actually shape these other societies to abide by the Federation definition of the 'nation-state'.

Addendum: There is, of course, the idea that these are empires of star systems, each with different internal formats. The Amarr Empire being the Amarr civilization who claim Amarr space. The Caldari State being eight megacorporations of Caldari origin who claim Caldari space. The Minmatar Republic being seven tribes of Minmatar origin who claim Minmatar space. The Gallente Federation being nation-states of multiple origins who claim Gallente space. Not that I'm attempting to make what I just wrote at length to be redundant...

[Katrina Oniseki]

Aside from my below reply, I found your post to be a delightful read.

The Caldari State is interesting, too. You have a band of eight megacorporations that identify as Caldari. Perhaps the Caldari State is the nation and the eight megacorporations are the states? There is also the complex issue of states in the Federation that identify as Caldari, throwing up the true claim to the Caldari nation (the State will naturally try to claim it the rightful successor of course).

The ethnic Caldari still in the Federation would probably not have the rightful claim to the "Caldari nation".

Popular opinion and status quo points directly and unmistakably to the Caldari State as what it means to be Caldari, not the Fed.

EDITED this post to offer a less aggressive and assertive tone.

[Seriphyn]

The ethnic Caldari still in the Federation do not have the rightful claim to the "Caldari nation".

Says who? This is the whole point of human politics; there's no right or wrong. If the movement was loud enough, it would become valid. If there were enough American-British loyalists blowing that trumpet, the rightful claim is constructed.

That is the idea of politicization, where an issue becomes an issue only when it is made an issue.

[Katrina Oniseki]

The ethnic Caldari still in the Federation do not have the rightful claim to the "Caldari nation".

Says who? This is the whole point of human politics; there's no right or wrong. If the movement was loud enough, it would become valid. If there were enough American-British loyalists blowing that trumpet, the rightful claim is constructed.

That is the idea of politicization, where an issue becomes an issue only when it is made an issue.

Says the rest of my post? You say they do, I say they don't.

Where are these references to 'enough people' claiming it? Where in the PF does it say the ethnic Caldari living in the Federation are claiming this? Is it a new addition to the fiction?

[Seriphyn]

I didn't say they do. I say the potential is there.

This is supposed to be a discussion of esoteric concepts. Applying absolutisms and objectivities is thus counter-productive.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I didn't say they do. I say the potential is there.

This is supposed to be a discussion of esoteric concepts. Applying absolutisms and objectivities is thus counter-productive.

Ohhhh, I see. That's certainly acceptable, though I stand by what I said.

I'll edit some of my original reply, since I didn't realize you were only throwing this idea into the hat.

[Alain Colcer]

You made me lookup on wikipedia what are the common established notions about State, Nation and Civilization, ill quote them here for reference:

Nation

A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.[2][3] The word nation can more specifically refer to people of North American Indians, such as the Cherokee Nation that prefer this term over the contested term tribe.[1]

Civilization

Civilization (or civilisation) is a sometimes controversial term that has been used in several related ways. Primarily, the term has been used to refer to the material and instrumental side of human cultures that are complex in terms of technology, science, and division of labor. Such civilizations are generally hierarchical and urbanized. In a classical context, people were called "civilized" to set them apart from barbarians, savages, and primitive peoples while in a modern-day context, "civilized peoples" have been contrasted with indigenous peoples or tribal societies.
There is a tendency to use the term in a less strict way, to mean approximately the same thing as "culture" and therefore, the term can more broadly refer to any important and clearly defined human society.[1] Still, even when used in this second sense, the word is often restricted to apply only to societies that have attained a particular level of advancement—especially the founding of cities.

Sovereign State

A sovereign state is a political organization with a centralized government that has supreme independent authority over a geographic area.[1] It has a permanent population, a government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states.[2] It is also normally understood to be a state which is neither dependent on nor subject to any other power or state.[3] The existence or disappearance of a state is a question of fact.[4] While according to the declaratory theory of state recognition a sovereign state can exist without being recognised by other sovereign states, unrecognised states will often find it hard to exercise full treaty-making powers and engage in diplomatic relations with other sovereign states.

State

A state is an organized community living under a unified political system, the government.[1] States may be sovereign. The denomination state is also employed to federated states that are members of a federal union, which is the sovereign state.[1] Some states are subject to external sovereignty or hegemony where ultimate sovereignty lies in another state.[2] The state can also be used to refer to the secular branches of government within a state, often as a manner of contrasting them with churches and civilian institutions (civil society).

Therefore i would consider the Gallente Federation a nation, composed of several sovereign states.

[Publius Valerius]

It is a nice idea, but I would even start before. Why? As you mention with your Great Britain example there are many ways you can look in to a problem. And I could bring a prussian example why they see them self as a state, but not as a nation. I would even say that the idea of nation had come first with the french revolution, and Napoleon has it bring over europe.

So I will try to make a category system for this question (but first for just the four). Maybe we can pin this question better down.

The EVE Online main page, says:
-Imperial Theocracy
-Corporate State
-Federal Democracy
-Tribal Republic

Which is alone "mehish" useful. So my first suggestion would be to focus on the Fed and Empire, as they have currently full wiki-pages.


So first I would like to ask how would you see sovereignty. In the Holy Roman Emipre, was it understand as a nation which can go to war (without restrictions...and/or breaking laws etc..). In the old greece was it something similar, sovereign was how could get go to war (in a alliance or without one... and keep the bounty/treasure of war*), and could make contracts and trieties without any third party.

So It would be a interesting question. As we know Uriam could go to war with the Gallente without asking someone. He is sovereign in his domain. So more or less Kadorites domain would be a sovereign state. But I dont think the fed-union members could go to war? So they would be "just" a state.


So the Gallente Federation would be for me a sovereign state, composed of several states.


As Bruno had show in his quote/post: "A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history." I would say the Gallente Fed is WAY to PLURALISTIC that you could see it as a nation. It hasnt a common language (most gallente speaker are living even outside of the FED. You have many Bloodlines, which would burst the defintion in the "culture, ethnicty and descent" part. You have in the and just the last point history. But this could be also a good point for a defintion for a state. So the Fed isnt for me a nation. As for the second part: "composed of several states" I wouldnt say that it parts are nation-states.

The Gallente Federation appears to be a union of nation-states [...]

I would say, that it is composed of several states. Those states can be colonies, megalopoli´s or the union members. It hasnt for me the picture of "nations" or a "nation", that I could say, it is "composed of nations."





The Amarr Empire would be for me a sovereign state**, composed of several sovereign states.





*Krieg führen auf eigene Rechnung. Going to war with your own goals and benefits.
** You could also make a fair point that the Empire is way more homogeneous. So that the term nation would also fit. See it as your China example: You have a civilization where one group -- the Han Chinese -- overlaps everything. In the case of the Empire would it be the "Athra´s people" (True Amarrs, Khanid, Udorians). So you may enter: "sovereign civilization-state", "sovereign nation" or as I did (to play save) "sovereign state".

[Seriphyn]

Well, this is the thing, Publius, is that everything regarding this particular matter is so subjective and really culturally/politically relative. The Amarr and Minmatar never seemed to 'progress' into a 'contemporary' political system as we know it today; they certainly reached the same technology level, sure, but it's very alien in how their politics developed.

[Natalcya Katla]

All the "Big Four" are multinational states, since they all contain multiple nations within the same governmental framework.

[Khloe]

I suppose I can't comment much on your topic, mostly because I disagree with most of your points about the nature of EVE's nations, primarily from the definitions supplied by Bruno. If your implication is that we somehow cannot comprehend the structure of New Eden's civilizations simply because we carry a particular perspective on the organizational methods of the western world, I also disagree.

The Amarr Empire is a nation, divided by several states controlled by major imperial houses and the Ammatar Mandate. They share a culture, language, religion, governmental structure, etcetera. That doesn't mean individual planets within the Empire cannot have a unique subculture, but it does mean that they should share some similarities with the rest of the Empire so as to not be entirely alien. Caldari mega-corporations will have their own corporate culture that they cultivate and build, but they share a basic connection with all Caldari that defines their nation. Even if it's simple as hating Gallente, it's still something...

[Seriphyn]

I agree, actually. The variations don't really apply so much to 'nation' but to 'state'. A Gallente state is that with a civil government and bureaucracy. A Minmatar state is a tribe (though likely would have to include a bureaucracy, unlike our contemporary tribal definitions).

And then, yeah, 'nation' is where it all varies. The state is the mechanical vehicle of the nation.