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[Lyn Farel]

It's also a rather good abusive ad-hominem to make.

Meaning that's not because someone does not take part in something that his argument has to be invalid.

[Streya]

Of course, Lyn, words do count. If your OOC goal for your character is to become a master propaganda artist or poster-person for the faction's recruitment drive by using inspiring words, that works too. A problem with "backing action" only arises if a character says "I will fight for my faction/ideology!" and then in no way, shape, or form fight.

[Lyn Farel]

Of course, Lyn, words do count. If your OOC goal for your character is to become a master propaganda artist or poster-person for the faction's recruitment drive by using inspiring words, that works too. A problem with "backing action" only arises if a character says "I will fight for my faction/ideology!" and then in no way, shape, or form fight.

It only boils down to what you call "fighting", then.

[Streya]

If someone says "fighting", that generally means physically clashing in space with weapons and the like. If they're an industrialist or propaganda master, then words such as "build" and more vaguely "support" would be more appropriate IMO.

[Lyn Farel]

okay 

[orange]

If someone says "fighting", that generally means physically clashing in space with weapons and the like. If they're an industrialist or propaganda master, then words such as "build" and more vaguely "support" would be more appropriate IMO.

Which is nice and all; but that only leads to who has an impact on the faction that is greater?

A Fighter routinely points to killboards and enemy's killed. An FC points to enemy fleets defeated and systems taken.

An Industrialist organizes materials, material gathers, researchers, manufacturers, and sellers (1 character can do anyone of those or all three) to do a variety of things, but short of beating the market (more on that in a sec) can be construed as profiteering regardless of their words.   In order to do more, the Industrialist needs to make a profit so they can re-invest.  Also, if they beat the market too much, another seller will buy it all up and put it back at around the market price.  The industrialist might be able point to markets they built, but you only their word on that.  And yes, some of us have helped create regional hubs.

In high-sec, beating the market can be an expensive and self-defeating proposition in the area of popular, low-end T1 Modules, Frigates and Cruisers.   The barriers to entry are sufficiently low and the majority of resources readily available (or entirely available) that you run into the "Free-Minerals" problem.   Unless an industrialist quickly moves into T2 manufacturing and sales or larger ships.

Now, some would suggest the successful Industrialist could donate a bit to keep PvPers in ships.  But I really do not think that is fair to the loyal industrialist - if I am putting aside some percentage of my profit to keep a group of PvPers in ships and space, I would at least expect a say at the strategic level in what they do.

[Shaalira]

These attitudes are like fads.  It wasn't so long ago that it was hip to expound on how pointless FW was, how it could be likened to a 'bloodsport' held within a pre-defined arena, a proxy war fought largely by mercenary podders who care little about their employers.  And indeed, there are still plenty of characters who think like this.  (With a fair degree of merit!)

Now, after CCP revamps the FW mechanics and makes some vague hints about faction support having to be proven through actions in space, you're suddenly not a faction loyalist unless you're in FW.

Really, just play the game how you want to play it.  I interpret Falcon's comments more along the lines of 'If you want to change the outcome of a live event, be prepared to commit/spend assets, and put yourself in a position where you can potentially suffer real losses.'  I do not think he meant 'join FW or gtfo.'

It's fairly obvious that I find FW a lot of fun.  But it's not everyone's cup of tea.  And being a privateer-soldier isn't the only way to be loyal to a cause.  Certainly, it's a valid tactic to, in-character, bludgeon someone over the head with their 'lack of commitment' as evidenced by the fact that they're not in a militia.  But it's also a valid in-character argument to say that enrolling in a CONCORD-sanctioned militia with a bunch of bloodthirsty pirate capsuleers to fight a limited war is not the best way to serve your faction's interests.

Deploy whatever argument suits you in-character, and don't worry so much about other people's OOC attitudes or perceptions.  Ultimately, it's a sandbox.  Things like warzone occupancy will ebb and flow, shaped by the shenanigans of non-RPers.   The effect the 'roleplay community' has on the FW warzone is actually really small.  So just relax and write your story the way you want.

[Gottii]

EM wasnt in the militia for a long, long time.

Dont think anyone ever accused us of not being loyal to the Republic.

[Silas Vitalia]

There are plenty of ways to support your faction other than spending blood and treasure on what many capsuleers see as a pointless proxy war.

[Streya]

Which is nice and all; but that only leads to who has an impact on the faction that is greater?

A Fighter routinely points to killboards and enemy's killed. An FC points to enemy fleets defeated and systems taken.

An Industrialist organizes materials, material gathers, researchers, manufacturers, and sellers (1 character can do anyone of those or all three) to do a variety of things [...]

I'd say that's all pretty subjective. No one can doubt the contributions of either the fighter/FC or the industrialist, because realistically you need builders to supply fighters and build up infrastructure, and on the flip side you need fighters to defend a nation's assets. If ever there were an ego-driven internal squabble about one particular playstyle contributing more to their faction than another, then it would be just that: an internal squabble driven by ego.

At the end of the day a stoic faction loyalist would be able to see the importance and contributions of all involved parties and appreciate them. As Gottii said, no one has ever accused EM of being "not loyal enough". As one of the people who was fighting out in the warzone, I greatly appreciated their industrial support and weekly rewards to people who were holding on to territoy. It was a very nice, synergistic relationship.

[Lyn Farel]

EM wasnt in the militia for a long, long time.

Dont think anyone ever accused us of not being loyal to the Republic.

I think that is more directed on lone individuals usually. Players/characters perfectly know that some entities have their fame and solid background behind to back them up if needed.

They just look for easy preys.

[Katrina Oniseki]

EM wasnt in the militia for a long, long time.

Dont think anyone ever accused us of not being loyal to the Republic.

I think that is more directed on lone individuals usually. Players/characters perfectly know that some entities have their fame and solid background behind to back them up if needed.

They just look for easy preys.

There was a pretty strong argument against both CVA and I-RED a few pages back, you know.

[Lyn Farel]

CVA is a special case and has always been attacked for OOC reasons tied to nullsec stuff.

I-RED... Are Ishukone. As far as I recall they have been painted as the new parias of the State. Add to that all the I-RED history about fighting against the STPRO... I think the arguments lie more here. It gives people more legit reasons.

EM are... less separated from the main ideological bloc of the Minmatar.

But I may be wrong.

[Vincent Pryce]

These attitudes are like fads.  It wasn't so long ago that it was hip to expound on how pointless FW was, how it could be likened to a 'bloodsport' held within a pre-defined arena, a proxy war fought largely by mercenary podders who care little about their employers.

This so very much.

Just because someone does their gameplay different does not mean they are doing it wrong. Instead of finger pointing and call outs, why not feed on it ICly. Long before FW there used to be intra-faction intrigue, Amarr was quite famous for this back in the day. This sudden demand for unity through FW is stale and boring, not to mention it can drive potential players away. It is good to have options instead of "if you wanna play this you need to do this or URDOINGITWRONG."

I reckon some of this be in FW or you're not loyal is also stemming from a serious ass spanking militias get from time to time. Caldari recently gotten their asses handed to the by the Gallente, it happens, such is the ebb and flow of FW. I can see that triggering a Y U NO FW TO HELP CALDARI (or a FW militia of your choice) reaction when you are on the losing side. Throwing a temper tantrum to get more participants is all in all just hurting your cause.

As for militias and loyalty... If loyalty was measured by a militia killboard that would leave a lot of pirate loyalists on thin ice now wouldn't it? After all, I have very little game mechanically to show for it are the standings which no one can see and that majority of my online presence is spent in Curse. I just shoot other dudes in the face, avoid shooting angel rats when possible and shoot little red crosses for the Cartel for my income.

Not everything needs to be overt, not everything needs to conform to one mold. Variety is good for you and your community.

Personally I think I-RED is very much a Caldari entity doing caldari things. I see that there is variety and internal intrigue now in the Caldari RP loyalist scene and I think that is cool as hell. Need more of that in all the factions.

[Saede Riordan]

I think its easier now, with falcon, to declare loyalty to a group. That gives a bit less credibility to the 'militia or bust' attitude.

However, I think there's another question that should be asked: What exactly does it mean to be a loyalist? Does it mean you can claim to take orders from NPCs? Does it mean you can claim to be an 'official' member of a faction? Could I claim to be an actual MIO agent? At what point does the factional loyalty turn into factional godmodding?