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[Katrina Oniseki]

"You're not truly a [faction citizen] unless you serve in [faction militia]!"

I've been seeing this tossed about IC for a long while now, and I'm curious to hear the OOC opinions of those who say it often.

If taken from a purely IC perspective, I think it's a wonderful addition to EVE RP for people to be calling, even demanding, service to the faction militias. It's a great rallying call for the ultranationalists, provists, traditionalists, and revenge seekers. It makes total sense why characters would say this, and I have no issue understanding or hearing characters say this.

What worries me is that people may OOCly believe that unless you serve in the militia, you're not a legitimate member of your chosen faction. Vikarions excellently written post on the IGS recently (seriously, great writing Vik) is  a good example to ask this question with, since it related to my character. Would Caldari players claim that Katrina is not a good Caldari because she has never served in the STPRO, and does not intend to?

Is this opinion shared OOC too? Are characters, corps, and alliances required or expected to be militia to be legitimately loyal?

[Saede Riordan]

I think at some point there's a question of game mechanics. Mechanically the militias and the NPC corps are the only want to have any sort of connection beyond a loyalist one, to any of the factions.

I'll admit I do tend to roll my eyes when people claim to actually be members of the actual pirate factions, or claim to be RSS agents, or Federation Navy officers and so forth, when mechanically that's not really possible as a capusleer. You can be loyal to those groups, but as a player-character you're not actually a member of those factions.

[Laerise [PIE]]

As much as I'm disapointed into what CVA has become, they certainly set out to reclaim Providence - a goal they have accomplished to some extent.

If you want to serve your faction outside of the militia I guess you can always claim a piece of faction lowsec or 0.0 and work that angle.

Now, if your's is a complaint about people in an inherently pvp centric game ridiculing those who brag about how great they're at PvE ( "I killed 100 amarr battleships last night alone! I am truely the most fearsome freedom fighter of all times! FREEDOOOOOM!!!" ) then I'm inclined to disagree on the point that in my eyes pve ( not incursions or mining though) is essentially worthless for RP (or general) bragging rights.

To clarify, there is a fine line between being a dashing internet spaceship captain by blowing up people / building stuff / defending constellations from incursions and the almost completely self-centred ego-masturbation that mission running is 

[Katrina Oniseki]

As much as I'm disapointed into what CVA has become, they certainly set out to reclaim Providence - a goal they have accomplished to some extent.

If you want to serve your faction outside of the militia I guess you can always claim a piece of faction lowsec or 0.0 and work that angle.

Now, if your's is a complaint about people in an inherently pvp centric game ridiculing those who brag about how great they're at PvE ( "I killed 100 amarr battleships last night alone! I am truely the most fearsome freedom fighter of all times! FREEDOOOOOM!!!" ) then I'm inclined to disagree on the point that in my eyes pve ( not incursions or mining though) is essentially worthless for RP (or general) bragging rights.

To clarify, there is a fine line between being a dashing internet spaceship captain by blowing up people / building stuff / defending constellations from incursions and the almost completely self-centred ego-masturbation that mission running is 

Not talking about PvE, no. Even highsec PvE is legitimate service to your faction, but it's still the bottom rung of the service ladder.

What is your opinion on industrial corps who claim to build and produce (and/or actually do)?

[Laerise [PIE]]

Very high. If someone can manage to deal with prolonged industry duties more power to them.

There are quite a few amarrian industrialists who sell under market price / donate war material to several amarr militia corps for example.

In my opinion they enable people to go out and have fun blowing up stuff, so they're on the same rung of respect (for me at least) as casual fc's, logistics people who move ships and modules and intelligence guys. 

The thing imo is that if you supply other people with content, then you deserve all the praise you get - and more.


Edit: This only holds true if they actually do build something and do donate / sell under value. Just saying you do something when you don't is, imo, in the realm of ego-masturbation.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

It's difficult because the proxy war is *so* bizarre in my opinion. It's almost a gameshow or a team sport. I can totally understand why people might not want to get on the FW treadmill, OOC, Kat.

In Character though it is easy to point at FW accomplishments and say "I'm an officer in the State Protectorate.  I'm doing my part." That's not the same as being Caldari Navy, but it is an achievement that the Caldari Navy should appreciate and recognise. It is the closest to unequivocal official recognition of loyalty that is possible ingame.

At the very least, even the most hardcore detractors of Eggers in the uniformed services should feel that the Militia members of their faction are the best of a bad lot.

[Publius Valerius]

Sorry for any misspellings.

"You're not truly a [faction citizen] unless you serve in [faction militia]!"

OOCly. I cant give really an answer (thats the sad rule for VWLer and NPÖlers***see joke on the bottom). I see it more as trade-off (but it is just me. And my backround  ). The statement is actually a interesting ones, but also has it drawbacks.

Pro:
You have a easy definition, of what is a [loyal] member of a faction, and who is not. For example: "unless you serve in the militia, you're not a legitimate member of your chosen faction." This definition hasnt any grey areas and is easy to use. It is also valid, as the current game mechanic, allows this exactly. But, A huge BUT, It allows just this definition for the big fours, as they haev this mechanic.

So overall, a valid tool to distinguish players (which have characters in one of the big four), in two two groups: "Service to the faction militias, YES or "service to the faction militias, NO" plus the addition that only answer one (yes), does makes you a [loyal] member.

Cons:
You may exclude some player which havent that goal (or the chance/tool to join a militia). You may also have players, which just indirect help your miltia or faction (like bring ships on the FW-Region market, or people which try to add a "new" trade hub (Khanid Prime, Hek etc...)).

For the second con, which I call " I have to explain a little, with some examples which are little outside of this topic; I will come later back and explain what I meant. So we had long time ago a discussion about "pro & con"s, if you like to see the current conflict as a interpretation good vs evil, or more precisly good faction vs bad faction (see here and here). As I mention in the links, It is a VALID and OFTEN use tool. And thats how I see this question ("You're not truly a [faction citizen] unless you serve in [faction militia]!"). It is a VALID and OFTEN use tool, but will get very fast one dimensional.

So you have like often in your life a trade off. For example, if you see the lore as good faction vs bad faction; as mention here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=195490&find=unread . You have most likely a VALID point, but also cons which are coming with such a definition. The same counts here. Everybody how says that (for a character in one of the big fours) has a VALID argument, but it has sadly the trade off/drawback that its exclude some people and that it gets/becomes very fast a "one dimensional thingy".

What worries me is that people may OOCly believe that unless you serve in the militia, you're not a legitimate member of your chosen faction. Vikarions excellently written post on the IGS recently (seriously, great writing Vik) is  a good example to ask this question with, since it related to my character. Would Caldari players claim that Katrina is not a good Caldari because she has never served in the STPRO, and does not intend to?

Is this opinion shared OOC too? Are characters, corps, and alliances required or expected to be militia to be legitimately loyal?

Me PERSONALLY I have the same worries, as I make a really hard account spliting. One for pvp and one for pve.* Thats why some elments of the greater gameplay in eve I do with one char or another, but try not to do everything with one char. If this makes any sence?



*I have to say, taht I dont roleplay with another char, just with PV. I also have to say, that the interaction between PV and my others chars are almost zero (just isk transfer). This has many reason, most of all I had to rat belts for a whole weekend to get my sec standing up again. I know, every action should have its drawbacks/trade off; so dont see it as a complain. It was just for me, easier just to role Publius as PvE char and use him that way.

Very high. If someone can manage to deal with prolonged industry duties more power to them.

There are quite a few amarrian industrialists who sell under market price / donate war material to several amarr militia corps for example.

In my opinion they enable people to go out and have fun blowing up stuff, so they're on the same rung of respect (for me at least) as casual fc's, logistics people who move ships and modules and intelligence guys. 

The thing imo is that if you supply other people with content, then you deserve all the praise you get - and more.


Edit: This only holds true if they actually do build something and do donate / sell under value. Just saying you do something when you don't is, imo, in the realm of ego-masturbation.

True/Affirme. I would also add, that most of the deals are backdoor dealings. So you have less "ego-masturbation" form it. Maybe thats why some are going public and say that they do this (me, what is a privat deal is a privat deal. My policy  , but I alos understand that some indys need from time to time friendly hug  ).



***Edit:"Ein VWL-Klassiker:
Ein Mann sitzt im Heißluftballon und hat wegen des starken Windes völlig die Orientierung verloren. Er schwebt in fünf Metern Höhe über einem Acker und sieht einen Mann unter sich. "Entschuldigung, können sie mir sagen, wo ich bin?", ruft er hinunter.
Der Mann auf dem Acker antwortet: "Sie sind in einem roten Heißluftballon, fünf Meter über der Erdoberfläche."
Da sagt der Ballonfahrer: "Sie müssen ein Volkswirt sein."
"Stimmt.", erwidert der Mann auf dem Acker. "Woher wissen Sie denn das?"
"Ist doch offensichtlich - Ihre Antwort ist zwar technisch absolut korrekt, aber trotzdem völlig wertlos."
"Dann müssen Sie Top-Manager sein.", ruft der Mann auf dem Acker.
"Richtig." antwortet der Ballonfahrer. "Wie haben Sie das denn herausbekommen?"
"Das war auch nicht besonders schwierig. Von Ihrer Position haben Sie eigentlich einen hervorragenden Ausblick, doch Sie wissen trotzdem nicht, wo Sie sind und wo es hingeht. Außerdem hat sich an Ihrer Lage nichts geändert, seit wir uns getroffen haben. Aber jetzt bin ich plötzlich für Ihre Probleme verantwortlich."

"An economics classic:
A man sitting in the hot air balloon and has completely lost because of the strong wind, the orientation. He floats in five feet above a field and sees a man among them. "Excuse me, can you tell me where I am?" He calls down.
The man on the field responded, "You are in a red balloon, five meters above the ground."
As says the balloonist, "You must be an economist."
"Right." The man replied in the field. "How do you know that?"
"It's obvious - your answer is technically absolutely correct, but still worthless."
"Then you must be a top manager." The man on the field.
"Right." replied the balloonist. "How did you find out then?"
"That was not very difficult. From your position, you actually have an excellent view, but you still do not know where you are and where it's going. Addition to your situation has changed nothing, since we met. But now am I suddenly responsible for your problems. "

[Jev North]

I'm enjoying the fuck out of playing a new character who is pretty hardline about this sort of thing. Wei does not believe that everyone needs to drop everything they're doing right away and join SPROT, but she does think that there's a rather unfortunate trend towards capsuleers running off, doing their own thing, badmouthing the current political order in the State, and still claim they know what it means to be Caldari. This is clearly unacceptable.

That's all IC, though. Although it's a side of the Caldari I'd personally like to see represented more, out of character I'm obviously a lot more reluctant to pass judgment on how people play their characters. Aside from the general insanity of faction warfare, there are deep divisions in the State, after the rise of Heth; Caldari characters can have very legitimate reasons to dislike the current incarnation of the State and the faction war. I don't think it's required by a long shot.

[Khloe]

Legitimate question: Has anyone ever said that they were awesome because they kick ass at pve?

(i want to meet them and shake their hand)

[Jev North]

Legitimate question: Has anyone ever said that they were awesome because they kick ass at pve?

(i want to meet them and shake their hand)

I do recall someone saber-rattling about the total amount of Serpentis being ground up by ratters and mission runners, not too long ago..

[Ghost Hunter]

"You're not truly a [faction citizen] unless you serve in [faction militia]!"

I've been seeing this tossed about IC for a long while now, and I'm curious to hear the OOC opinions of those who say it often.

If taken from a purely IC perspective, I think it's a wonderful addition to EVE RP for people to be calling, even demanding, service to the faction militias. It's a great rallying call for the ultranationalists, provists, traditionalists, and revenge seekers. It makes total sense why characters would say this, and I have no issue understanding or hearing characters say this.

What worries me is that people may OOCly believe that unless you serve in the militia, you're not a legitimate member of your chosen faction. Vikarions excellently written post on the IGS recently (seriously, great writing Vik) is  a good example to ask this question with, since it related to my character. Would Caldari players claim that Katrina is not a good Caldari because she has never served in the STPRO, and does not intend to?

Is this opinion shared OOC too? Are characters, corps, and alliances required or expected to be militia to be legitimately loyal?

This type of OOC thinking is one of the contributors to the homogenization of the RP scene. As such, I generally do not care for it at all. The Militias are a great way to show case your loyalty in an overt and militaristic way. It's also one of the few 'provided' ways CCP have implemented in the game.

[Publius Valerius]

Just drive by and fix earlier comment:

"For the second con, which I call "one dimensional thingy." I have to explain a little, with some examples which are little outside of this topic...."

[Mithfindel]

Legitimate question: Has anyone ever said that they were awesome because they kick ass at pve?

(i want to meet them and shake their hand)

I do recall someone saber-rattling about the total amount of Serpentis being ground up by ratters and mission runners, not too long ago..

I feel tempted to note omgrawr quote #5901. So I'll do it: http://omgrawr.net/quote/5901

As for the OP, it's a game. No point taking it seriously OOC (though I have to admit that some people do get on my nerves, even with my very casual playing style). If FW ever has any effect on what happens in that faction's space on a whole, then seeing a "total war" scenario is possible, but right now, even IC, I view this as a somewhat limited contact. (We do have a few "lines that should not be broken", though.)

[Katrina Oniseki]

Thank you for your post, Publius. I found it very helpful. 

I'm enjoying the fuck out of playing a new character who is pretty hardline about this sort of thing. Wei does not believe that everyone needs to drop everything they're doing right away and join SPROT, but she does think that there's a rather unfortunate trend towards capsuleers running off, doing their own thing, badmouthing the current political order in the State, and still claim they know what it means to be Caldari. This is clearly unacceptable.

That's all IC, though. Although it's a side of the Caldari I'd personally like to see represented more, out of character I'm obviously a lot more reluctant to pass judgment on how people play their characters. Aside from the general insanity of faction warfare, there are deep divisions in the State, after the rise of Heth; Caldari characters can have very legitimate reasons to dislike the current incarnation of the State and the faction war. I don't think it's required by a long shot.

What is your opinion on Capsuleers who serve the State without being in FW? Take I-RED, as a continuing example from the OP. We've consistently roleplayed that our operations are orders handed down from Ishukone Corporation, and if you take note... everywhere we deploy... there is an Ishukone station, or PF Ishukone interests.

[Jev North]

In a nutshell? Sounds as legit as you can get without explicit relationships to event actors. It's more or less what ANSH did while we were still Serpentis loyalists, while taking maximum advantage of the vaguely defined relationship with the SPC.