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[Vikarion]

Gesakaarin hit it right on the head.   Roleplay is story development, and stories have their ups and downs.  Being part of an underdog faction is just as interesting and enjoyable as being part of an ascendant one.

It's not a good idea to get emotionally invested in whether your faction "wins" a game when that very game is designed for an eternal back-and-forth between opposing factions.  It's like hoping for the total victory of the Horde or the Alliance.  Hint:  As long as Blizzard has subs, it's not going to happen.

I'm not so much concerned with FW - it's going to go back and forth forever, and there's sort of a pride in being the underdog. OTOH, I can complain when I think someone was actively unfair, and about what I see as a process of making Eve into some sort of immature "good versus bad" contest. If I preferred Star Wars, I would buy Star Wars.

[Shaalira]

I'm not so much concerned with FW - it's going to go back and forth forever, and there's sort of a pride in being the underdog. OTOH, I can complain when I think someone was actively unfair, and about what I see as a process of making Eve into some sort of immature "good versus bad" contest. If I preferred Star Wars, I would buy Star Wars.

The allegations of CCP unfairness in the implementation of the Fast Forward patch have been made largely by a vocal few on the forums, half of them mostly inactive in the gameworld.  Suggesting that members of the Gallente militia were "consulted" about it is misleading, given how CCP has been soliciting feedback on FW for months.   No militia knew in advance about the Fast Forward Patch.  Indeed, when the patch notes came out, most of us in GalMil thought that it was handing a win to the Caldari.

After all, flipping a system takes all of ten to fifteen minutes.  It wouldn't have taken much to get a dominant position with so many systems so deeply vulnerable.

As for the world-shaping issues, the missteps of TonyG have been often spoken of on these forums.  Suffice to say, there is plenty of lore in the game and in the wiki that pushes the Federation into the gray area.  The COSMOS missions and the Caldari POW item text are two of many examples of this.

More recently, Roden and the Black Eagles have done things much more questionable than "mildly naughty."  As a black ops unit operating behind a democracy, much of the news and articles about them are of a more subtle bent.  Figuring out the scarey stuff that they're up to requires reading between the lines.  And thank goodness for that; it's a sign that there's still at least some writing in the PF that can draw on subtlety.


The present argument of CCP's bias relies on observational fallacies.  The foremost is the treatment of a complex organization with multiple individual actors and departments, each with their own agena, as a monolithic conspiratorial entity. 

CCP has a new live events team that reacts quickly to player initiatives.  CCP also has a balance dev that stays on top of events in the PvP world.  The fallacy is in linking the swift response of the new live events team along with Fozzie's immediate tweet as indicators of a monolithic CCP effort to see Gallente prevail.   I'm sure there are other details plucked out of the messy universe to support the woven narrative, such as TonyG's books written independently months ago.

And relying on such narratives is more comforting to forum warriors who, in the absence of such, would have to admit their shortcomings in the virtual battlefields of internet spaceships.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

The game gets changed the same for everyone. Of course, superficially at least, pre-patch there was a stalemate and post-patch there was a curbstomp.

Still, a large part of the curbstomp could easily have been caused by half the CalMil ragequitting, so... Was there bias or was there simply perceived bias leading to a self-fulfilling prophecy? I don't know - all I know is that FW is not the game of Eve and whilst it would be nice not to have been curbstomped, I still lose more of my poor little Condors to pirates that come into the Warzone for easy tears than at the hands of the FDU.

In any event. Piet is Caldari and the current state of the Warzone doesn't really make being Caldari any more difficult than it was last month.

[Vikarion]

The allegations of CCP unfairness in the implementation of the Fast Forward patch have been made largely by a vocal few on the forums, half of them mostly inactive in the gameworld.  Suggesting that members of the Gallente militia were "consulted" about it is misleading, given how CCP has been soliciting feedback on FW for months.   No militia knew in advance about the Fast Forward Patch.  Indeed, when the patch notes came out, most of us in GalMil thought that it was handing a win to the Caldari.

After all, flipping a system takes all of ten to fifteen minutes.  It wouldn't have taken much to get a dominant position with so many systems so deeply vulnerable.

It's a fallacy to suggest that, because some who have complained are inactive, that the entire complaint thus rendered invalid. It also does not follow that because some of the loudest complainers are forum warriors, that it is not widespread among the less vocal. In my experience, much of the discouragement among the Caldari FWers stems from the patch, which would have been more fairly accompanied by a reset of the warzone, rather than what did occur. At the very least, more warning should have been given. The farming of LP was not inflicting such dire damage on prices that it justified a patch with such ramifications being implemented so quickly.

And, yes, certain people were listed as being consulted about the patch, only one of whom was a Caldari FWer. Moreover, Hans, the CSM who CCP consulted regarding FW, plays on the Gallente/Minmatar side. All possibly innocent, yes, but it certainly looks bad from the side that got screwed.

As to the flipping, I can't really credit it as an argument. We all know that defending is easier than offense, and Gallente players immediately went out to decontest every system at least a little bit. The Caldari did attempt to form bunker busting fleets, however, as most also know, such attempts are affected both by local conditions and by forewarning. Everyone knew that the Caldari were suddenly faced with the unprecedented situation of having to take every system as soon as possible, and thus forewarned, were able to take every precaution to prevent it. And since the Gallente could easily render any particular system unfit for flipping by taking even one or two plexes - and then possibly keeping them open so that no more could spawn - the Caldari had no chance whatsoever to effect a mass flipping of systems. And they didn't. That they had been capable of such when the Gallente were not able to focus their efforts on a distinct slice of time and space is quite obvious: they'd already done it before.

As for the world-shaping issues, the missteps of TonyG have been often spoken of on these forums.  Suffice to say, there is plenty of lore in the game and in the wiki that pushes the Federation into the gray area.  The COSMOS missions and the Caldari POW item text are two of many examples of this.

Actually, you just managed to quote the majority of lore that paints the Federation badly, although I presume you refer to the Federation epic arc. On the other hand, I can give you almost exact mirrors of those things on the Caldari/Amarr side, and then fill pages with more. The State and Empire have been increasingly painted in a completely dark tone, while the Federation suffers only the mildest splotches of gray. It is perfectly possible to think of many ways in which it could be portrayed more realistically, but such has not been done. And, while I won't say they can't or shouldn't RP as such, many Federation players are perfectly willing to RP their nation as the perfect utopia that TonyG called it - and the rest of us don't have a terrible lot to oppose that vision with.

More recently, Roden and the Black Eagles have done things much more questionable than "mildly naughty."  As a black ops unit operating behind a democracy, much of the news and articles about them are of a more subtle bent.  Figuring out the scarey stuff that they're up to requires reading between the lines.  And thank goodness for that; it's a sign that there's still at least some writing in the PF that can draw on subtlety.

Ah, the Black Eagles. Well, aside from possibly removing a school teacher, there hasn't been all that much that they have done. Perhaps they are just very lazy. But, in regards to subtlety, I'd note that if the Federation is getting ambiguous hints here and there, it would be necessary to say that the Empire and State have been loaded up with a good deal of very unambiguous, very unattractive qualities. And, on top of that, have been gifted with the ambiguities as well. Now, forgive me, but how are Amarr players to feel when their former ruler is revealed to be a child-loesting blood raider and their current one to be, if I may be blunt, a psychic zombie princess? I won't bother going into Heth, the Broker, or the sudden change of the State from hyper-competent CEOs and diligent employees to incompetent fools and starving serfs.

The present argument of CCP's bias relies on observational fallacies.  The foremost is the treatment of a complex organization with multiple individual actors and departments, each with their own agena, as a monolithic conspiratorial entity. 

CCP has a new live events team that reacts quickly to player initiatives.  CCP also has a balance dev that stays on top of events in the PvP world.  The fallacy is in linking the swift response of the new live events team along with Fozzie's immediate tweet as indicators of a monolithic CCP effort to see Gallente prevail.   I'm sure there are other details plucked out of the messy universe to support the woven narrative, such as TonyG's books written independently months ago.

The discrepancy comes when you consider how little attention CCP paid to a fairly momentous accomplishment, and then the instant attention shown when the other side accomplishes same. Yes, there are reasons for that, but it also seems a little odd that the Caldari were rewarded for their victory by having the Megacorps overreach, Heth (who we, almost to a man, loathe) become stronger, and the Gallente get a better, more war-savvy president. Gee, thanks.

The Gallente, on the other hand, get an immediate forum post for holding all systems less than a day, will probably get a medal (I don't begrudge them that), and CCP is hinting that they'll get Caldari Prime back. Oh, and Heth has already had an assassination attempt (yay?), the megas are in financial trouble thanks to losing the Gallente systems, and on and on. The rewards, let us say, have not been similar or commensurate.

And relying on such narratives is more comforting to forum warriors who, in the absence of such, would have to admit their shortcomings in the virtual battlefields of internet spaceships.

Well, this is a bit of an ad hominem, but I think I'll content myself with the knowledge that I can both post and PvP, and that I was buzzing around your station quite a bit today while you were docked up.

[BloodBird]

As for FW, the Gal-Cal warzone was dropping back and forth right up until CCP implemented one of the fastest patches they have ever run through, timed to coincide with Gallente control of the vast majority of the warzone, and they did so after consulting only Gallente FW players. The one Caldari player they claimed to have contacted denies being consulted.

You don't know that for sure, and you don't get to post your opinion as if it were fact. FW got it's patches and fixes regardless of who had what systems, and CCP has demonstrated that they don't care who holds what, it's up to the players to deal with their faction's dominance or lack thereof. I honestly don't think you would have complained at all if the Caldari came out ahead.

[Lyn Farel]

Actually, you just managed to quote the majority of lore that paints the Federation badly, although I presume you refer to the Federation epic arc. On the other hand, I can give you almost exact mirrors of those things on the Caldari/Amarr side, and then fill pages with more. The State and Empire have been increasingly painted in a completely dark tone, while the Federation suffers only the mildest splotches of gray. It is perfectly possible to think of many ways in which it could be portrayed more realistically, but such has not been done. And, while I won't say they can't or shouldn't RP as such, many Federation players are perfectly willing to RP their nation as the perfect utopia that TonyG called it - and the rest of us don't have a terrible lot to oppose that vision with.

The only thing that makes you think that is due to a lack of cultural relativism, imho. You think like a westerner.

So yes, the Federation is probably the less "evil" in westerner terms. What's so new about that ? Who cares in the world of New Eden ?

[Shaalira]

It's a fallacy to suggest that, because some who have complained are inactive, that the entire complaint thus rendered invalid.  It also does not follow that because some of the loudest complainers are forum warriors, that it is not widespread among the less vocal.

No, it's not a fallacy to suggest that people who spend more time complaining in the forums than fighting a war in game know less about the war in the game.  You cannot automatically attribute the opinions of the vocal to the opinions of the silent.  The 'silent majority' argument requires substantiation.

And the numbers point to increased FW participation and pew pew overall.

In my experience, much of the discouragement among the Caldari FWers stems from the patch, which would have been more fairly accompanied by a reset of the warzone, rather than what did occur. At the very least, more warning should have been given. The farming of LP was not inflicting such dire damage on prices that it justified a patch with such ramifications being implemented so quickly.

A 'reset' of the warzone would eliminate all actions done by players for the sake of creating an instanced, level battlefield.  In other words, it would betray why EVE is a sandbox.  The Fast Forward Patch had the potential to screw over all militias equally.  The issue was how each militia handled the situation.

And are you really casting CCP in a bad light for actually implementing a patch quickly?  Talk about perverse incentives.

And, yes, certain people were listed as being consulted about the patch, only one of whom was a Caldari FWer. Moreover, Hans, the CSM who CCP consulted regarding FW, plays on the Gallente/Minmatar side. All possibly innocent, yes, but it certainly looks bad from the side that got screwed.

Because heaven forbid that the people who help design game mechanics actually play the game.  This has been a primary complaint of EVE players for years - that the devs don't actually play the game.  The CSM was designed with the express purpose of having player-elected players, who know the game in and out, advising the development process.

As to the flipping, I can't really credit it as an argument.

Glad to know arguments are only arguments when you credit them as such.

We all know that defending is easier than offense, and Gallente players immediately went out to decontest every system at least a little bit.  The Caldari did attempt to form bunker busting fleets, however, as most also know, such attempts are affected both by local conditions and by forewarning.

Phrases like "we all know" is a pretty cheap rhetorical trick to disguise bland assertion for common wisdom.  The arguments for what the Caldari could have done in light of the Fast Forward Patch are many.  Blaming 'local conditions' is a superb way of avoiding the fact that your favored militia was split by civil wars, ongoing wardecs, and divisive and abrasive personalities.

As for forewarning, it affected both sides equally.

And since the Gallente could easily render any particular system unfit for flipping by taking even one or two plexes - and then possibly keeping them open so that no more could spawn - the Caldari had no chance whatsoever to effect a mass flipping of systems.

This right here shows how much 'information' you've gotten from bitter second-hand sources.  You weren't actually there.  It took more than 'one or two' flips to pull a system out of vulnerable.  It took dozens of plexes since all systems were deeply vulnerable and capped at 133% vulnerable post Fast Forward.  Read the patch notes.

Half the warzone was still vulnerable a full week after the patch.  Entire days went by when the Caldari made no effort to flip a single system.  There's only so much you can blame 'local conditions' for such crass inaction.

Actually, you just managed to quote the majority of lore that paints the Federation badly, although I presume you refer to the Federation epic arc. On the other hand, I can give you almost exact mirrors of those things on the Caldari/Amarr side, and then fill pages with more. The State and Empire have been increasingly painted in a completely dark tone, while the Federation suffers only the mildest splotches of gray. It is perfectly possible to think of many ways in which it could be portrayed more realistically, but such has not been done. And, while I won't say they can't or shouldn't RP as such, many Federation players are perfectly willing to RP their nation as the perfect utopia that TonyG called it - and the rest of us don't have a terrible lot to oppose that vision with.

First of all, your assertions about Federal roleplay are fairly baseless.  Federation partisans will of course hype on the benefits of democratic progressivism in the forums - as the Amarrian partisans talk about God, virtue, patience, morality and stability.  It's natural that activists posting on behalf of their faction will polish the 'attractive' parts while downplaying the negatives.

There is no death in Nation, after all.

To suggest that those same players aren't cognizant of what their characters are up to, or of the darker side of their own factions, is insulting them.

Vague statements about darkness and splotches of gray are rather qualitative judgements.

I'll get to my second point after the next post.

Ah, the Black Eagles. Well, aside from possibly removing a school teacher, there hasn't been all that much that they have done. Perhaps they are just very lazy. But, in regards to subtlety, I'd note that if the Federation is getting ambiguous hints here and there, it would be necessary to say that the Empire and State have been loaded up with a good deal of very unambiguous, very unattractive qualities. And, on top of that, have been gifted with the ambiguities as well. Now, forgive me, but how are Amarr players to feel when their former ruler is revealed to be a child-loesting blood raider and their current one to be, if I may be blunt, a psychic zombie princess? I won't bother going into Heth, the Broker, or the sudden change of the State from hyper-competent CEOs and diligent employees to incompetent fools and starving serfs.

The Black Eagles have also embraced the memory and brain-scanning trade, leaning on criminal elements preying on poorer individuals for memory scans at the risk of permanent brain damage.  This is one of many cyberpunk moves as part of an unprecedented surveillance campaign within the Federation, taking advantage of the blurring boundaries between bio-organic and digital memory.  It's all very Ghost in the Shell, with all the dystopian overtures of those themes.

Really, Vikarion, there's more to evil than dragging people off at night.  Lots of us appreciate finer distinctions, subtlety, and cloak and shadows in our fiction.

This brings me to my second point.  Depicting one faction as 'more evil' than another is not a sign of 'favoritism' in an online mmo.  People enjoy playing darker, more morally ambiguous or outright villainous characters both in general gameplay and in RP.  Having one side be 'lighter' in an mmo universe famed for its dark and gritty atmosphere is not necessarily a point in that side's favor.

People in EVE like playing scammers, griefers, pirates, and criminals.  And this translates into roleplay as well.  Saying that grimdark elements in a faction's lore suggests CCP is biased against that faction and is trying to dissuade people from playing that faction is utter rubbish.

The discrepancy comes when you consider how little attention CCP paid to a fairly momentous accomplishment, and then the instant attention shown when the other side accomplishes same.

Again, you're talking about CCP as a monolithic conspiratorial entity, ignoring the fact that it is a fairly large corporation with numerous writers and, furthermore, generational differences between the present personnel and those personnel that existed in the past.  The people that handled the situation when the Caldari won control of the full war zone are different from the people that handled the situation when Gallente won control of the full war zone.

CCP was more efficient now than it was in the past.  Yay?

Yes, there are reasons for that, but it also seems a little odd that the Caldari were rewarded for their victory by having the Megacorps overreach, Heth (who we, almost to a man, loathe) become stronger, and the Gallente get a better, more war-savvy president. Gee, thanks.  The Gallente, on the other hand, get an immediate forum post for holding all systems less than a day, will probably get a medal (I don't begrudge them that), and CCP is hinting that they'll get Caldari Prime back. Oh, and Heth has already had an assassination attempt (yay?), the megas are in financial trouble thanks to losing the Gallente systems, and on and on. The rewards, let us say, have not been similar or commensurate.

The Federation lost a popular, progressive president.  They also suffered a controversial election where a significant population was denied suffrage, one which only highlighted the grievances of the Intaki member state and provided much impetus for independence roleplay.  The ramifications for the Federation loss were significant.

Also, you're looking at lore and news items in terms of 'rewards.'  The CCP group writing live events and news articles is in charge of telling an interesting story, that is all.

Well, this is a bit of an ad hominem, but I think I'll content myself with the knowledge that I can both post and PvP, and that I was buzzing around your station quite a bit today while you were docked up.

It's only ad hominem if you think that comment directed at you personally.  It was, of course, directed at the vocal forum warriors I referenced in the first paragraph of my post.

Also, Vikarion, it's in poor taste to piggyback on the accomplishments of others.

[Ava Starfire]

This is why all of you should immediately submit to your proper, civilized Minmatar betters. It is for the best.

[Jev North]

All I'm takin' away from this argument pile is "daaaaamn youuuu TonyG!"

[Desiderya]

Half the warzone was still vulnerable a full week after the patch.  Entire days went by when the Caldari made no effort to flip a single system.  There's only so much you can blame 'local conditions' for such crass inaction.

It's not true. Surprise patch came 10.23, cap patch came 10.24. 10.25 all systems were out of vulnerable, with 15 having been taken in the two to three days. I know this because I can read the patchnotes and compare it with timestamps on forum posts.
Countering pos bash fleets (pirates did that, too) had a lot to do with 'only' 15 systems, but without the cap more systems would've changed hands. NPC contestion made offensive plexing much slower than defensive plexing as well. It took me, for example, significantly longer ( about 33-50% ) to cap minors in a long-range destroyer, simply because the spawns appear out of range of the button most of the time. The bigger the plex, the bigger the issue obviously.

CCP bias/conspiracy is a ludicrous argument, but discarding the impact of all of these changes as minor isn't really objective either.


edit: as far as the RP goes:
Gesakaarin described it well, and Lyn's point about us judging it from our (mostly? western) set of morals hits home, too. When I think about the 'dark side' of the federation there are plenty of angles. A public execution in a very brutal manner isn't something I'd be okay with IRL, especially not with the crowd being the executioner. A rather perverse example of direct democracy.
Democracy itself can be criticized thoroughly - most of us live in one and I guess everyone just loves lobbyism, to name just one aspect - although that would warrant an own thread.
Therefore I see no problems with PF/IC arguments to arm characters that are not (Minmatar)/Gallente when it comes to defending their own society.

[Shaalira]

Half the warzone was still vulnerable a full week after the patch.  Entire days went by when the Caldari made no effort to flip a single system.  There's only so much you can blame 'local conditions' for such crass inaction.

It's not true. Surprise patch came 10.23, cap patch came 10.24. 10.25 all systems were out of vulnerable, with 15 having been taken in the two to three days. I know this because I can read the patchnotes and compare it with timestamps on forum posts.
Countering pos bash fleets (pirates did that, too) had a lot to do with 'only' 15 systems, but without the cap more systems would've changed hands. NPC contestion made offensive plexing much slower than defensive plexing as well. It took me, for example, significantly longer ( about 33-50% ) to cap minors in a long-range destroyer, simply because the spawns appear out of range of the button most of the time. The bigger the plex, the bigger the issue obviously.

Forum posts don't accurately account for the state of the warzone, which should be fairly obvious from the bias in the W&T posters.  If I knew this was going to be a big issue down the road, I would've taken screenshots of the FW UI in the days following Fast Forward.

It was not the case that 'all systems were out of vulnerable' three days after the patch.  And indeed, there were full days with lots of vulnerable systems where nothing was flipped at all.

Edit Addendum:  Found data from Dotlan Maps

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/factionwarfare/2012-10-23

10-22 is when the Patch Came Out

System Flips
10-22:  Innia, Aivonen, Hallanen, Sujarento, Hasama, Manjonakko
10-23:  Notoras, Asakai, Prism, Uuna, Ishomilken, Nikkishina, Fliet, Agoze, Kinakka, Frarie, Vey, Eugales,
10-24:  Harroule
10-25:  Annancale, Pynekastoh
10-26:  Villasen, Reitsato
10-27:  None
10-28:  None
10-29:  Vaaralen

Vaaralen was still vulnerable a full week after the patch, among other systems.  Two full days passed after Reitsato where nothing was flipped.

What you may be referring to is how we started getting systems out of vulnerable about 2-3 days after the patch.  A fair number were secured but, as the continued system flips show, not all of them by a long shot.

[Laerise [PIE]]

This is why all of you should immediately submit to your proper, civilized Amarr betters. It is for the best.

Fixed that for you 

[Desiderya]

You know?
vOv
It wasn't W&T, else I'd have linked the posts in question. It's a combination of my memories getting jumpstarted through help of a talk I had at that point and an attempt at an objective analysis from my side why the situation was seen as an uphill struggle at that point.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Perhaps at this point we ought to concede to Shaalira that the FDU member organisations were better organised and coordinated and that, ironically, the Caldari Militia actually has very little top-level command or focus.

Once that's done, maybe she can admit that the timing of the massive surge in the warzone seems to suggest that either the changes in those patches or the reaction to the changes in those patches had a very significant part in what came next.

In any case. Nobody's seriously butthurt over it. Caldari pilots are still in the warzone. We're still trying to take systems and we'll be trying to defend those systems. We'll still be trying to get fair fights and avoid being outnumbered and outgunned. But, for the love of all that's holy, can we try to discuss PF Canon and FW Mechanics seperately. They have nothing to do with one another.

[Desiderya]

Oh, without question!
That's what I was tryingto say, hopefully without sounding hostile. I'm not trying to belittle achievements here nor am I bitter about 'losing'. I do think that the whole CCP loves gallente thing is pretty stupid. But I think that there was more to the situation than just saying 'CalMil is incapable, we aren't', which is why I've posted my two cents.