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[BloodBird]

I would like to have a civil conversation with you all in regards to a topic that cropped up on the IGS recently:

The Caldari State's diplomatic attempts to re-gain Caldari Prime from the Federation before the war broke out again.

I would like to hear of all sources that might claim this was even tried, and to hear what you think such a deal would mean and the possible terms such a deal might hold.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Attempting again to display my point of view:

I feel it would be remarkably inept for a sovereign state to not try diplomatic means at achieving a goal that it could not achieve in war. The State failed to take back Caldari Prime during the war, so when the war ended... it rather makes sense that the next step would be to try diplomacy and compromise on some scale.

Granted, maybe the Caldari State's idea of diplomacy is wildly different from ours, perhaps including cutthroat business attacks aimed at gaining real estate control over the planet or something. I don't know. I just have a hard time accepting that the State would not try diplomacy at all during all those years. The two nations were openly cooperating on a number of ventures, both political and scientific. Why wouldn't the State be trying to make use of the cooperative sentiment while it's there?

I am bad at remembering specific sources and citations for PF, but I am fairly sure it has referenced these so called numerous diplomatic attempts, at least indirectly. Maybe it hasn't done so directly because CCP assumes that it's almost 'a given'.... meaning they expect us to assume it.

[BloodBird]

That's just the thing. I'm *NOT* saying that they would never try. Or never did. I'm saying that I've not seen it written down or spoken of anywhere, but by the logical laws of realism they obviously would try to do that and this is what I'm assuming.

So assuming they did, what could the possible terms of such a deal be, what could it mean in the long and short term, and is there any actual PF that details anything like such an attempt?

[Katrina Oniseki]

I would have to say that in the end it probably boils down to CCP just not having the time to write it for us. I would agree with you and say both nations would publicly document their attempts, or at least the Federation would document it via media.

As for what the deals might entail? Most of it is probably trade or real estate rights, or protection of Caldari sacred locations on the homeworld. The larger deals would be aimed at sovereignity, but who knows how messy those would be. Any of them are likely very complicated political issues that would be worthy of MONTHS of media coverage.

We're talking about an issue as serious as Israel and Palestine. Two groups both claiming rights over a specific physical area, even coming to arms militarily. I'm not saying the State or Fed are Israel or Palestine... but I'm saying the diplomatic turmoil over the Caldari Prime issue would be unavoidably messy, even in times of peace.

Because if that, I'm not in a position to imagine what the details would look like. Maybe Seriphyn would be able to answer that, as he's formally educated in politics.

[Saede Riordan]

Luminaire completely demilitarized and put under CONCORD jurisdiction as a Heritage Site. I don't think any other course of action would really create the needed longterm stability. The Caldari get to put a station over CP and a stargate connecting back to New Caldari.

While seemingly simply as a diplomatic course of action, it wouldn't be possible unless the State was able to put enough pressure on the Federation to sue for control of the planet like that. Forcing the Federation to give up Luminaire would be difficult and would require a position of political strength.

[Bong-cha Jones]

I feel it would be remarkably inept for a sovereign state to not try diplomatic means at achieving a goal that it could not achieve in war. The State failed to take back Caldari Prime during the war, so when the war ended... it rather makes sense that the next step would be to try diplomacy and compromise on some scale.

I'd always assumed that the return of Caldari Prime wasn't such a huge concern for the State, honestly.  Taking the planet back during the war of secession wasn't the primary goal, independence was.  They knew they were risking the planet when they seceded and decided that risk was worth it.  They were quick to evacuate the planet and the heart of their population and most of their resources were off-world.  At the end of the war, the CEP made little effort to claim Caldari Prime, because it wasn't particularly useful to them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure many Caldari were unhappy that their homeworld was in foreign hands, but I think they were, by and large, resigned to it.  There certainly isn't much PF portraying the wound as an open one. . . until Heth.  I think it's a mistake to portray Heth's focus on retaking the planet as a continuation of Caldari foreign policy, when I think it's largely his baby, though one that would win him popular support after he'd gone and done it.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I'd always assumed that the return of Caldari Prime wasn't such a huge concern for the State, honestly.  Taking the planet back during the war of secession wasn't the primary goal, independence was.  They knew they were risking the planet when they seceded and decided that risk was worth it.  They were quick to evacuate the planet and the heart of their population and most of their resources were off-world.  At the end of the war, the CEP made little effort to claim Caldari Prime, because it wasn't particularly useful to them.

To be fair the State had been on the back foot for just about the whole war and their military effort was focused on surviving as a sovreign entity. Vastly outnumbered and outgunned by their leviathan opponent their military strategy seems to have been one of total mobilisation and attritive attacks on the will of the Gallente to continue to wage a war that had become incomprehensible to most of their citizens.

Under the circumstances I don't think it was ever possible for the State to win back a foothold in the Luminaire system.

That said, just because realpolitik ruled it out, doesn't mean it wasn't a heavy blow. If you look at the central tenets of Wayism, you can see they are based on ancestor worship and a sort of animism focused on nature worship. Certain mountain ranges are sacred. Many of the chief deities are Winds specific to the Homeworld. It's hard to believe that a culture so organised could face the loss of it's homeworld without an aching sense of loss and shame.

Then you have the toast "Haak-kin k’len" which translates as We (the we that is all of us and also you) shall return. Although it's not stated explicitly that this refers to Caldari Prime, it's fairly obvious that it does indeed do so and that it acts as unifying impulse in the Caldari State.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure many Caldari were unhappy that their homeworld was in foreign hands, but I think they were, by and large, resigned to it.  There certainly isn't much PF portraying the wound as an open one. . . until Heth.  I think it's a mistake to portray Heth's focus on retaking the planet as a continuation of Caldari foreign policy, when I think it's largely his baby, though one that would win him popular support after he'd gone and done it.

You, perhaps, have to compare it to the Argentine desire to claim the Falkland Islands. I agree that few Caldari ever expected it to happen in the near to midterm, but I suspect that articulating the doubt that it would EVER happen is close to treasonous. It is probably seen as a point of shame that the homeworld was lost and had not been recovered and I'm pretty sure that now that a Caldari Fleet is in orbit around it, the State would not soon forgive the men and women who bartered it away like goods in a peace settlement or who allowed it to be lost once more.

[Bong-cha Jones]

That's pretty much what I was trying to articulate, yeah 

Politically, I think the option had been ruled out for a long long time, and that the cost/benefit left it firmly on the back burner to anyone with even a scrap of power, but the masses never forgot.  Enter Heth, who threw the fleet at Caldari Prime like a hammer without caring about the cost/benefit because he's a populist ideologue and it's an article of faith for him, and now the public will never give it back and nobody in power can suggest doing so (even if they thought it was a good idea) because all the corporate messaging in the cluster won't stop the workers from burning their bones to ash if they do.

The main thrust of my point is that Heth's strike wasn't a violent last resort after all peaceful options had failed, and thus a continuation of status quo foreign policy by other means, but rather a sudden pursuit of a new political priority that he brought with him when he ascended to power.

[Bong-cha Jones]

-hit quote instead of edit, sorry-

[Katrina Oniseki]

The main thrust of my point is that Heth's strike wasn't a violent last resort after all peaceful options had failed, and thus a continuation of status quo foreign policy by other means, but rather a sudden pursuit of a new political priority that he brought with him when he ascended to power.

Without a doubt. Heth was acting on his own desires to beat up those ugly Gallentes, as Diana Kim puts it. He wanted war with the Gallente by any means. Taking back Caldari Prime was not on the forefront of Caldari foreign policy, not until Heth.

That's not what I mean. I mean that the Caldari were likely trying to pursue diplomatic terms to at least be able to make use of their homeworld without being a part of the Federation. I'm saying the State never really let go of it, even if they did not see it as a workable priority without a lot of Federation cooperation.

This is perhaps the whole point of it. The Caldari wanted the homeworld back, but knew it wasn't feasible enough to even place it as a primary objective. This is why roleplayers keep saying diplomacy wasn't working.

[Bong-cha Jones]

I'm still uncertain that diplomacy was ever really tried.  The leadership passed on their best opportunity to do so, recognizing that the planet no longer held material value for them.  That's not a case of diplomacy not working so much as it is a case of diplomacy not being employed.  In my more cynical moments, I imagine that certain factions within the State were happy with that outcome, as the popular resentment made for a useful tool.

Now, I've seen people suggest that the State has offered to buy Caldari Prime back before, and that has more legs in my opinion.  It's a clear situation where the Caldari feel they are being reasonable about the whole thing, but you can still see why the Federation would balk at the implications and not be able to accept the offer.  That's a cool set up and kinda fleshes out both factions.  Whereas the idea that the State has been kindly asking for limited access for cultural reasons and being rebuffed by the Fed for the last century is somewhat more one-sided.  Admittedly, so is my idea that the State probably didn't formally negotiate for the planet's return.

[Gesakaarin]

For myself, it's IC propaganda aimed at legitimizing the assault of the Homeworld by:

1. Romanticizing the role the Homeworld plays in modern Caldari culture and history in order portray Heth and the CPD as valiant Caldari knights coming in to save the day for the little guys.

2. Portray the Roden Administration and the Federation as irrational warmongers seeking continuation of conflict even when offered the option of re-negotiation.

Propaganda and the manipulation of public opinion has always been a dark art but it's also an intellectually simulating and enjoyable that has its place in the dialogue of RP interactions. Its only negative impact is upon those over-invested to such an extent that well crafted IC rhetoric creates paroxysms of hurt.

That amuses me greatly, for this is New Eden and conflicts don't always have to be fought with internet spaceships but can also be won and lost on the fields of ideas. War exists between the State and Federation and the deployment of propaganda factors into that. It is an even field because the only tools either side has to fight it with is their own words, creativity and ideas. Bemoaning that fact is like saying, "How unfair it all is, the other side has better words than we do."

[lallara zhuul]

Caldari Prime was part of the Federation.

The war broke out and it was still part of the Federation, it was never 'bartered away' as collateral for peace.

[Desiderya]

The Tierjiev treaty (I think the chronicle is "CONCORD") did mention caldari prime as 'essentially being seen gallente territory" back then. With the vast majority of caldari having been evacuated, the majority of the population should've indeed been of gallentean decent. Besides the pure necessity, as was stated above, was for independance and not the homeworld. The federation, on the other hand, did not and still does not want a caldari foothold in the system for strategic reasons.

The 'State Factionalism' insinuates the patriots being the ones that still long for their lost homeworld, very likely romanticizing the whole deal (akin to the Raata stuff). It furthermore insinuates that there have been non-military plans and ideas to get the planet back by essentially stating that they [the patriots] are interested in non-military solutions to the question of Caldari Prime. Which must include diplomacy.

So at least a portion of the State was always looking at Home, whereas others might deem it not worth the cost. This has, obviously, changed under Heth where a broad acceptance was there to attempt the retaking when the opportunity would arise. The question why no diplomatic solution has been found might be simple - the federation treats caldari prime as a federation core world and would be mad to give up "their people" as well as risk the strategical headache that situation would provoke.

Whether you want to spin thi ICly is up to yourselves. The caldari "It's ours" is as valid as saying "By now it's a gallente homeworld".

[Mithfindel]

The Tierijev Pocket chronicle has currently this phrase:

Please note: Please note that this is a removed Chronicle and is not considered as EVE canon.

Mostly probably because (a) Tierijev is Gallente in the game and (b) no player customs officers exist.

The Evelopedia article for Caldari Prime states:

From the end of the evacuation through until YC110 (AD.23346), Caldari Prime was part of the Gallente Federation, with a population demographic increasingly made up of largely of Gallente and smaller native Caldari population. This was always an uneasy arrangement, and Caldari Prime remained a segregated world, with distinct districts for each culture, and even whole cities where one ethnicity or the other were in the considerable minority.

After the war ended, the continued occupation of the planet became a significant bone of contention for the Caldari, many of whom felt that the homeworld should be returned to them. The Federation, wary of allowing their former bitter enemies a potential foothold in the capital system never agreed to this point of view, and continued to claim the planet as their own.

Up until the rise of Tibus Heth, the possible reclamation of their homeworld was at most a distant, impossible fantasy for the Caldari.

Being a locked article, I assume that is canon.