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[Katrina Oniseki]

Okay. Posts deleted. Y'all win. I don't care enough about this topic to argue it.

[Lyn Farel]

It's bulky, corrupted, sensationalized... but it still works. PF about the Federation does not at all suggest to me that it is free from any of those concepts.

Citation needed.

Citation NOT needed. This isn't Wikipedia. I never got the impression from PF that the Federation is free from those concepts, so this is how I imagine it. If you want to change my mind, the burden of proof is on you to show me that the Federation is not 'bulky, corrupt, and sensationalized' in its politics. I frankly don't care what you think it is, because my imagination does not run using your neurons. I'm also not forcing anybody to see things my way, I'm just stating how I do.

To be honest I think you are both saying basically the same thing, just the way you tell it is different and you are arguing over it.

Seriphyn is saying that the Federation is not an all corrupt, bulky and sensationalized entity.

You are saying that the Federation is not a perfect utopia.

It looks like a case of seeing the glass half full or half empty to my eyes, but maybe i'm wrong.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Yeah you're pretty much correct, Lyn.

[Seriphyn]

Kat, youre still ignoring the PF examples I presented. You went forth to present your own take without backing it up. Heaven forbid we have different interpretations of the PF, but there has to be a limit to simply saying anything at all, especially to players who want CCP stuff. I'm sure no one would appreciate it if I went out of my way to say the Caldari regularly kill Gallente because of how nationalistic the State is, especially to the unacquainted. If you're going to call the second-largest faction corrupt at the core (rather than peripherally), then there better be at least some PF extrapolation to it, otherwise we can say whatever the hell we want. And that's my issue. Random extrapolations combined with little to no effort made with regards to the Fed possibly having its own completely unique system of democracy that is subject to completely different problems than those irl.

Also, US and British Empire comparisons fall flat. Both are land-based and not interstellar. US was founded by thirteen rebelling colonies; Fed by four entire civilizations from four different planets who decided to come together for god knows. British Empire wasn't a full democracy either, and regularly commit public atrocities the Fed could not dream to do.

[Arvash]

Great thread, good info, thanks everyone.

I'll just throw this here, though. I see a strong current of "pure democracy" here - i.e. every citizen gets a vote on every issue, the ancient Greek drop a potsherd in the pot idea if I understand right.

I guess my gut check is, based on the naming, that "Senate" and "Federation" imply that the government of the Gallente empire is coalition-based. That is to say, worlds (or groups of worlds) elect representatives, it is not a direct democracy. In my head it's more like the Senate of Star Wars, only with better acting, plus California Referrendum Madness.

Discuss. 

[BloodBird]

Look, Seri... honestly, I know you  and I have different viewpoints on what the Federation is really like, so I'm not going to post in this thread to argue with you any more after this. I have my viewpoints, and they could be wrong... but I think the Federation is a bloated caricature of the United States combined with the British Empire and various other sci-fi democracies. It's how I see it, and I haven't yet seen enough compelling evidence to suggest it is anything but ugly under the surface just like everybody else's faction.

The United States election system is a media circus and a joke these days. I imagine the Federation system to be the same. I'm not saying 'ur faction is bad lololol'. I'm saying it's a giant mess that somehow happens to work anyways, just like everywhere else in New Eden.

So relax.

You may not want to answer Seri, but you might want to answer me.

Your opinion is noted, though *I* have yet to see... compelling evidence... that your descriptions here are accurate, and I even have counter arguments against your specific.y selected arguments, if anyone want to read them. So do me a favor and tell me how you got to this conclusion, you might have seen or realized something I seem to have missed.

And I don't like the idea of being willfully blind to factors that might be right in front of my face but unnoticeable to my view-point, if you understand what I mean.

[Gottii]

Citation NOT needed. This isn't Wikipedia. I never got the impression from PF that the Federation is free from those concepts, so this is how I imagine it. If you want to change my mind, the burden of proof is on you to show me that the Federation is not 'bulky, corrupt, and sensationalized' in its politics. I frankly don't care what you think it is, because my imagination does not run using your neurons. I'm also not forcing anybody to see things my way, I'm just stating how I do.

Kat, not trying to jump into an argument thats not mine, but this statement I think really needs to be addressed, namely because I think if everyone adopted this attitude EVE RP would pretty much cease to exist in any meaningful way, at least as the vague quasi-coherent community it is now,

While, yes, youre free to play make-believe and use your imagination, if you chose to ignore PF, and simply place your own imagination above and beyond any PF backing whatsoever, while you might be RPing and creating stories, youre not RPing EVE. 

If everyone tried to RP EVE while simply creating their own ideas and imaginations of what the PF is, if there was no attempt to make it fit coherently within the PF, then RP among various players would cease to be feasible.  It would break down into narrative solipsism.  If everyone adopted the attitude you expressed, EVE's one shining quality and saving grace, the one big shared experience and sandbox for us to play in, which disappear in an RP sense.  It would all become various RP shards with different backgrounds, different worlds, different stories, and frankly different games. 

You're free to use your imagination all you want, but unless you make some good-faith effort to make it fit within the game world we all signed up to play in, I think we're all justified in ignoring whatever you come up with.  Which is a shame, youre creative and you can add a lot to this game world.  I would like to be able to play with you, not just watch you, well, ahem, play with yourself. (that came out so wrong, but i like it)  Im not trying to pick a fight, but, literally, if everyone adopted the attitude you expressed. EVE RP would pretty much cease to be anything unique or frankly anything interesting.   

[Khloe]

A representative democracy is still a democracy, and the structure of the Federation indicates it follows this model. Why have a Senate (law making body) of representatives (of a body of people) if the people simply vote directly on issues that affect them? Why bother with career politicians at all? Even in the United States with representatives, issues are routinely called to vote for a public decision. I have no doubt that the Federation has a similar rule system about what actually reaches a public vote at the region, global, and interstellar levels. What is the role of the President, if not veto power over the law-making body?

Also, in order to be considered as a candidate in most representative democracies one must have a minimum level of support by the people. Given that the alternative would be billions of people registering to be President without anything but a 'registration' form, it's not implausible to assume that some minimum standards are required to become a potential candidate, be it money or official support.

One can see how with such a complex system in place lots of loopholes could exist where those with power and influence can certainly make an impact, and I'm sure public media is where a vast majority of that influence goes. Corruption, taking advantage of a system for personal gain, is definitely not implausible in such a large empire as the Federation.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Okay. Posts deleted. Y'all win. I don't care enough about this topic to argue it.

P.S. - For those wondering why I deleted the posts, it's to help prevent further posters from quoting me or thinking I am an active contributor to this topic; though nothing stops them from using the quotations already taken.

[Gesakaarin]

I always thought the Eve PF existed to promote the creation of varied perceptions in a rich and varied setting, because it's one about humans being humans and thus fallible. That's like, the whole tragedy and drama behind it - everyone falling in their unique and specific ways. It speaks greatly of its scope that discussions like this can take place, but in the end no one is wrong or right because just like the characters played it's a matter of point of view and not hard and fast facts based on a body of work that is deliberately vague.

The Federation can be both a shining beacon of freedom and liberty on the hill as well as a decadent and corrupt system that advances the agendas of the few and powerful at the cost of the many. Just as the State can be a meritocratic nation that rewards hard work and duty with plenty and an oppressive totalitarian corporate regime that crushes its workers beneath it.

The fact that the setting of Eve can accommodate just as many views, perceptions and opinions as the people living in it makes what appears at times pedantic arguments over trivialities and canon a disservice to the depth and scope available to every faction within it. 

[orange]

Also, US and British Empire comparisons fall flat. Both are land-based and not interstellar. US was founded by thirteen rebelling colonies; Fed by four entire civilizations from four different planets who decided to come together for god knows. British Empire wasn't a full democracy either, and regularly commit public atrocities the Fed could not dream to do.

Take a closer look at those historical comparisons and the challenges that faced the British Empire and growing US and the logistics of governing across those massive stretches of "space."  Even more distant and logistically challenging was governing the Roman Republic's many domains prior to the rise of the Emperors.

The challenges facing 1-planet empires pre-extensive communications probably are not that different from interstellar empires pre-extensive FTL.

Lastly, there is the conflict between metropolitan/urban areas vs frontier/rural areas.  For the Fed, does someone in Solitude really want to/need to follow the exact same laws as someone in Mies?  Owning firearms in Mies IV is not quiet the same as owning firearms on Yveve II.

I think the Federation's founders were smart enough to talk about "guaranteeing a democratic form of government" for all its member worlds, but not detailing for each of them what form that should take.

So, in order to address the structure of the government, I suggest looking at the challenges it will face.

[Shaalira]

When in doubt, go for fun sci-fi cyberpunk speculative future over dreary RL historical examples.  That's my personal aesthetic take.

Also, the Wiki PF has been expanding lately and I'm sure there'll be more specificity to answer these questions soon(ish).

[Seriphyn]

When in doubt, go for fun sci-fi cyberpunk speculative future over dreary RL historical examples.  That's my personal aesthetic take.

That requires imagination.

[orange]

When in doubt, go for fun sci-fi cyberpunk speculative future over dreary RL historical examples.  That's my personal aesthetic take.

That requires imagination.

I would argue it doesn't require much at this point; there are all kinds of cyberpunk themes in the recent US Presidential election.  For GrimDark Cyberpunk, just read the news.

[BloodBird]

Okay. Posts deleted. Y'all win. I don't care enough about this topic to argue it.

P.S. - For those wondering why I deleted the posts, it's to help prevent further posters from quoting me or thinking I am an active contributor to this topic; though nothing stops them from using the quotations already taken.

That's a shame. I was asking for your viewpoint so I might learn something.

If you feel like answering me at any time, a mail will do just fine.