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[Silas Vitalia]

conversations are "he said she said" if it's a chat log.

evemail exchanges are a bit different.

How so?

From: The Empress
To: Jo'Mamma
9/19/2012

I'm a little teapot short and stout

Sincerely
Jamyl Sarum

[Nmaro Makari]

In SYNE we've always treated it as the CONCORD issued ID code keyed to each capsuleer's implanted neocom and :scienceplotholedevice:

Adjustable APIs made it more interesting and that much more plausible, after all its only a matter of time before someone cracks a system and capsuleers may have alot to hide. Its not inconceivable that criminals can tinker with it.

[Merdaneth]

I see, however, the API is objective. Is that objectivity metagamey though ?

like API verified killmails, they say X killed Y, objectively. Can that still be denied IC ?

The objectivity of the API is OOC. You should be able to deny it IC, but because the OOC objectivity trickles down into IC, you realistically can't without making a fool of yourself.

Is there any reason why I couldn't disconnect that feed from my ship to Concord when I'm away in some faraway wormhole system. Is there a Concord computer/transponder aboard each vessel that is untamperable (in the sense of datacores from the Gap series) and if you remove it, you'll be denied all capsuleer rights, such as docking and using stargates?

[Morwen Lagann]

Silas, Evemail is entirely different from chatlogs thanks to the API now having access to our mailboxes. If you give me an API key that gives access to pull evemails (via the MailBodies and MailMessages flags in the key generator), I can pull the actual contents of the evemails in your inbox from CCP's servers.

I won't pull what you said you were sent, I'll see what you actually received, in its original entirety. I'll see if you did any snipping or editing before forwarding the mail to me or anyone else. I'll even see if you deleted the email to erase evidence of the original, if there even was one.

Chatlogs are different. The only way to verify them completely is to get raw logs from CCP, which won't happen. You can check multiple logs of the same time period from different people, but :conspiracytheories:. That said, forging chat logs can be a pretty daunting task on an almost exponential scale. Not only is there an upward climb with the more material you have to doctor, but the more you fake, the more people you have to get in on it, and the easier it is to prove false.

Evemails are not the same way, and if you think they are, you're grossly incorrect in that belief.

[Louella Dougans]

conversations are "he said she said" if it's a chat log.

evemail exchanges are a bit different.

How so?

as far as I know, logs of conversations are player side, and the server side logs (if they exist, which I don't know would be the case for private conversations?), are inaccessible to the players.

Thus, the conversation logs are editable/falsifiable, and are "he said she said". If someone says "Prove it!", the proof can be argued about without anyone looking foolish.

Evemails have the API, which provide a form of verification that something happened between players, which can be accessed by others. If someone says "Prove it!", and the API is used, then... whatever happens IC, someone is going to look foolish OOC.

Which was something I was thinking about, regarding the API being usable IC. It feels a bit meta.

[Silas Vitalia]

Right perhaps I wasn't being clear.

I personally will never use ooc API in anything relating to mails, chats, or other correspondence.  I think it's more fun that way and seems much more to 'make sense' that such things could easily be forged IC between wealthy and powerful people.

[Ghost Hunter]

We refer to API in TS-F as the Capsuleer API Database Access Key. API = Automatic Personnel Inquiry, or something along those lines.

The API itself is IC, but specific parts of it may or may not be. Things like billing, owner name, etcetra we liberally ignore if its provided to us IC. Skills, skill points, and training is what we use most of the time ICly.

[Silas Vitalia]

It's too much 'peeking behind the curtain' for my tastes IC, but I might be in the minority.

[Logan Fyreite]

It's too much 'peeking behind the curtain' for my tastes IC, but I might be in the minority.

I'm with you on this one Silas. Seems a bit fourth wall-ish, and too easy, after all, if our current email systems (in real world) have some level of protection, we can only imagine that a similar system far in the future would have a much higher level security presence that most people would not be able to hack, lending a bit of credence to both the use of the API and the non-use of it.

For instance, a character could claim they were hacked and an email was removed, or sent from their account, and how would you prove that it wasn't the truth, how would you prove it was? 

[NISYN Aelisha]

But API data does have protection - you choose to share it, or not.  The fact that a related individual with API data that gives away some evidence of your activities (dying/killing, specific market trades etc) is a problem with the individual leaking the information wittingly or not through the provision of their own API. 

I staunchly oppose hand-waved denialism in EVE in general, both as a bane of RP and taking responsibility for your actions, so the API is an excellent tool when you have to sift through the filth to get a juicy bit of evidence/intel.  That being said, if you're 'careful with ytour partners' you won't 'catch anything'.  Friends don't share API when they have compromising data regarding their other friends!

Without recourse to some solid, provable evidence in an IC context, sleuthing and intelligence work has no value - and I hardly think that is something to miss out on in a dark, backstab-filled world such as ours. 

[Desiderya]

Correct me if I'm wrong:
You can not API verify certainl EVEmails, it's all or nothing. While I do think that the possibility of *neutral* (in an IC sense, something like CONCORD) confirmation on a he said she said situation, the clunkiness of the API key in question kind of voids that possibility. I don't want to get into a situation where I would have to count as a liar ( unwilling to provide doubtless proof ) because I don't want to share all my evemails.

As such, a screenshot would have to do, even if that's not entirely foolproof, too. But in the end - isn't that kind of the spirit you'd want for subterfuge, intrigue and the like?

[Lithium Flower]

API... Well, consider it as a way to access your personal board computer (or even to your brain snapshot). Be careful to not open it too much, or some baseliner hackers might infect your brain with some very nasty virus! 

[Alain Colcer]

I'll consider API "private" information IC if there is a proper arrangement between the person being "hacked" and the alleged hacker... say:

I have never transfered money to XXX party
Antagonist indicates he has had access to said transaction logs from station terminals where it happened
i cry "you can't prove it"
antagonist then shows me a valid transaction log (only obtained because i agreed to provide a one time use limited api key of some kind to follow the plot)

As long as it is not a RL STOLEN key, i have no problem with it, and both parties should consider it a viable tool to continue the RPing

[Merdaneth]

Come on people. The secure nature of the API is OOC.

If I want to tamper with the API, I could, but not without committing an OOC crime (bu hacking CCP, or hacking popular killboards, or hacking another player's computer). I cannot tamper with it IC even if I could/wanted to.

That's not right. For me that falls under the same category as using downtime to prove someone couldn't have done something.

I also find it highly odd IC that Concord has perfect and instantaneous records for these kind of things.

While the information held by the API is completely IC, the security and way of accessing the source is completely OOC. I would be ok with it if people would routinely doubt the veracity of the API. But they don't....

[Morwen Lagann]

I also find it highly odd IC that Concord has perfect and instantaneous records for these kind of things.

How?

It's established PF that our ships are filled with CONCORD monitoring devices to ridiculous degrees. It's how their rapid-response systems work, with fluid routers handling the "instantaneous" part.