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That the Rogue Jovian General incident years ago sparked Tech 2?

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Author Topic: Why ?  (Read 5740 times)

Valdezi

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #30 on: 16 Aug 2012, 16:09 »

Hey, I wouldn't sweat it, Lyn. I dig this thread because I love people talking about cool RPers and cool RP and all of the original examples fit into that.

Diana Kim started out as a caricature, but she's slowly become more nuanced as time has gone on, and I think whoever plays her is doing a good job.

Bastian, I know, is the product of years of work by the player who runs him and if he's offending people, I am hardly surprised. I find him fairly odious myself.

As for Seri, people find his character annoying? I love him. IC and OOC.
« Last Edit: 16 Aug 2012, 19:11 by Mammal Tafren »
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Ilsenae Alexandros

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #31 on: 16 Aug 2012, 18:11 »

*hugs* for everybody
*doublehugs* for Lyn

Back when I was playing Victoria, Rodj would frequently give pithy one-liner responses to Raze's posts that would make Vicky seethe but me laugh aloud.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #32 on: 16 Aug 2012, 18:22 »


I guess its because at some level the Minmatar are the "heroes" of Eve Online. The plucky underdogs fighting against a corrupt space empire that institutionalized slavery and theocratic dictatorship. Its like saying in the context of Star Wars - why is everyone so down on the empire and why does the rebellion get all the breaks?

But that's like... Totally not the same thing. :/

But I can definitly understand why people tend to think that.
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Gesakaarin

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #33 on: 17 Aug 2012, 02:01 »

Some of my characters absolutely loathe other characters even in circumstances when I personally don't. Mjalnar Gessenier would probably do all sorts of not very nice things if he ever got his hands on a Celeste Fauconnier or Vieve Tisserand but I have a different judgement on the player and so would my other characters for example. I just find it difficult to make personal calls on other people for how they choose to play their own fictitious creations, or to allow personal views to affect RP interactions, I'm not perfect however and it can happen but I just try very hard to prevent that.

As to the thread in question referenced by the OP, I don't know, there's a couple of comments in there that I'd say skirt the fourth wall - I've taken it to be a compliment rather, for if people feel the need to break that fourth wall in order to act out being a detractor then I see it as myself having successfully provided an effective explanation to events. Although I was surprised at it, since I provided enough scope with things like the rather dubious circumstances surrounding what was in effect a corporate dawn raid with all sorts of nagging inconsistencies to probe into if one wished to do so. No skin really off my back if people muddy the waters with IC/OOC I just smile in amusement these days.

In many ways I think it's because villains and those who are despised are those who in general act as the antagonists, instigators and motivators of any good story it's fun to watch others manage to somehow shoot themselves in the foot, stick the other in their mouth and then proceed to fall on their own swords.

I have a lot of respect for characters like Rodj Blake, Diana Kim or even Jade Constantine because they don't let a few scrubs in the peanut galleries change who they are fundamentally or try and put rose tinted glasses on their faction to make things more appealing or to appease the opinions of others in contradiction of their own vision.

Haters gonna hate.  ;)
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Makkal

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #34 on: 17 Aug 2012, 02:27 »

OOC, I have no particular issue with the characters beyond finding reappropriating First they came... for the Caldari particularly distasteful.
How is that distateful ? Because it is an obvious reference to RL History ?

1) It's a Godwin. Who wants Godwin in a setting where no one has likely ever heard of the Nazis?

2) He fumbled it. There's a certain poetry to the original that he missed. Also, he misapplied the poignancy level. A Caldari taking over a Federation company is... like the Jewish Holocaust? 

There's nothing wrong with making reference to real life history or culture, but that particular use of it made me groan.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #35 on: 17 Aug 2012, 05:32 »

I have a lot of respect for characters like Rodj Blake, Diana Kim or even Jade Constantine because they don't let a few scrubs in the peanut galleries change who they are fundamentally or try and put rose tinted glasses on their faction to make things more appealing or to appease the opinions of others in contradiction of their own vision.

Haters gonna hate.  ;)

That's more or less what I have done since the first time I started to post on the summit, several years ago. Not to the same excesses/scale, definitly not, but when I noticed recently that a lot of IC attacks were merely veiled OOC snipes, and this more and more, I just got weary of it. Nothing more, really.
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Gesakaarin

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #36 on: 17 Aug 2012, 17:13 »

That's more or less what I have done since the first time I started to post on the summit, several years ago. Not to the same excesses/scale, definitly not, but when I noticed recently that a lot of IC attacks were merely veiled OOC snipes, and this more and more, I just got weary of it. Nothing more, really.

I would say Lyn is a very effective debater in an IC context and I think in her application of logic and construction of arguments she can be very difficult to rebuke. However, sometimes it has to be asked is the goal of conducting an IC debate an argument to be able to stick a QED at the end of it or is it promote the expression of character thought and opinions? In this, I mean I've had on many occasions the chance to create ironclad, logically consistent arguments but if you look at some of the arguments made by my characters there are often gaps left open in the rhetoric because I'm not so much interested in "winning" a debate but rather in allowing a conversation to develop by conceding points and leaving openings for others to explore.

I think what some may have an issue with Lyn is not so much that she's a solid debater who values the application of logic to a discussion, but rather since she tends to follow thoughts to their conclusion it can give rise to situations where an opponent is forced IC into a corner because they cannot defend a position due to a lack of available information and/or PF. An example of this might be say, religion and God in the Empire, theoretically the Theology Council no doubt spends a lot of time doing research into canon law, the scriptures and rhetoric to counter, "Unbelievers", but players themselves do not have access to that information and thus can be trapped into positions that can be indefensible whilst also trying to maintain an "Orthodox" opinion of the Amarr religion.

This can cause frustration for other players that might be expressed as thinly veiled OOC because there's little else they can do given the information and resources at hand. I think there's a reason Socrates was given hemlock, not because of blasphemy against the Gods, but rather because his peers must have gotten tired of being the victims of reductio ad absurdam. Much the same applies I think to IC debates: One can take the purely logical and reasoned approach or one can try and view things from the other side and seek to frame arguments that are still consistent but also allow for a degree of scope for others not to get forced into a corner due to a lack of available resources to defend their IC opinions.

My thoughts anyway, and yes, I still love Lyn.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #37 on: 18 Aug 2012, 06:36 »

That sounds insightful. I haven't thought about it that way a lot. Generally I would choose the second solution as well, though here it happens that considering the character in question both solutions (QED and character focus) are intermingled.

Though that I actually have created posts here and there where I actually left open doors for people to pick on them, like for example when Lyn debated about children's education in society with Malcolm. Considering her eventful childhood - alike to be raised by monks - it left a lot of space for proving her wrong. Or more generally when I half consciously make her express her thoughts with the most possible alien mindset where I could have instead made her take a more conventionnal approach. With is also a potential cause for the OOC veiled attacks in question, true.
« Last Edit: 18 Aug 2012, 06:39 by Lyn Farel »
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Bastian Valoron

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #38 on: 18 Aug 2012, 14:44 »

Because it is a trivialization of an important quote and real history of one of the worst things humanity has ever done to itself. to score cheap political points in internet spaceships lolrp.  That's pretty damn offensive.
I guess this deserves an explanation. The quote and its form are quite universally used when people claim or are told that it is not their part to put things right, which was the context here. I wasn't really considering too much where the quote was coming from and it was not meant to trivialize or even refer to RL historical tragedies. Sorry for everyone who found it offensive out of character.
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Halete

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #39 on: 23 Aug 2012, 04:23 »

Can't say that I follow. Yes, people receive hostility for being extremists. Yes, this is perfectly realistic and all well and good IC.

Yes, our characters can take many subjects in their stride such as genocide because of the nature of the universe, but others are faux paus. This is all perfectly fine and realistic for the setting. This may seem alien OOCly, because it should - this isn't our world.

Yes, characters can act with a certain degree of cognitive dissonance - and again this is perfectly fine and realistic IC.

I'm not seeing any real problems. Perhaps some IC attacks are thinly veiled OOC snipes as you put it, but of these instances I am not privvy. I hold no quarrels with the players of characters that Halete does not get along with.
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Syagrius

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #40 on: 23 Aug 2012, 19:32 »

I interact with Bastian nearly everyday both in and out of character.  If he does or says something in character, I can guarantee you he has anticipated the response.   

Out of character he is one of the most thoughtful people you will encounter in this game. 

While my reply is off topic, I can’t help observing how this thread seems to expose the fractured nature of the RP community within EvE.  I know I am guilty of limited interactions within niche channels. 

I think we as RPers should, where possible, support the RP of others.  Perhaps in doing so we can improve the lamentable state of RP within EvE generally.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #41 on: 23 Aug 2012, 22:04 »

While my reply is off topic, I can’t help observing how this thread seems to expose the fractured nature of the RP community within EvE. I know I am guilty of limited interactions within niche channels. 

I think we as RPers should, where possible, support the RP of others. 
Perhaps in doing so we can improve the lamentable state of RP within EvE generally.

In every single game I have roleplayed in, I think I've heard the same story of how that community is somehow supposedly in poor health. Every MMO RP community seems to think it's dying, this one no different or less doomsaying than the last.

EVE RP is healthy. The community is healthy.

Lyn Farel

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #42 on: 24 Aug 2012, 06:04 »

I do not find it healthy, far far from it. My own definition of healthy implies that everyone can find an opulent amount of rich and diverse RP where OOC conflicts are rather marginal. I don't think we meet both criterias.

But at the same time I do not find it dying either. Contrary to what I have seen in other MMOs where RP communities seem to grow up and die like mushrooms, this one seems pretty durable and mature to me.

Note : also, I do not think that James said that the community is dying. However, the state of RP is quite lamentable in my opinion, or at least, could be a lot better.
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Syagrius

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #43 on: 24 Aug 2012, 19:03 »

While my reply is off topic, I can’t help observing how this thread seems to expose the fractured nature of the RP community within EvE. I know I am guilty of limited interactions within niche channels. 

I think we as RPers should, where possible, support the RP of others. 
Perhaps in doing so we can improve the lamentable state of RP within EvE generally.

In every single game I have roleplayed in, I think I've heard the same story of how that community is somehow supposedly in poor health. Every MMO RP community seems to think it's dying, this one no different or less doomsaying than the last.

EVE RP is healthy. The community is healthy.

If that is what you took from my comment you missed point, but that is often the case when someone is looking for something that isn't there.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Why ?
« Reply #44 on: 24 Aug 2012, 19:43 »

Sorry, I wasn't really addressing what you wrote. I was more just commenting on a common gripe I keep hearing around these parts. No offense intended.
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