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[Ulphus]

TEA, (I know, I know) fairly explicitly (no pun intended) indicates that Chamberlain Karsoth was sexually abusing his slaves.

Following that reasoning then psychopaths like Anders Brevik are now common criminals in Norway. Actually, most folks in Norway are mini Anders Brevik (sorry for the harsh analogy).

Not a good analogy. If Norway made Anders their prime minister, then that might be a better example.

The impression I got about Karsoth was that he wasn't hiding what he was doing all that much, but of course, no true amarrian would behave like Karsoth...

A better analogy might be one of the henchmen of Pol Pot. for a time, what they did was "normal" in Kampuchea, but a lot of the people there weren't very happy about it.

[Lyn Farel]

I always thought it was definitly hidden and not known at all. 

[ArtOfLight]

Going to have to agree with Lyn on this one, I've always been under the impression that Karsoth's sins were hidden.

Just as the most recent blunder of Our Beloved Empress(tm) involving several ripe, young handmaidens and their inability to contain their lusts seems to have been kept on the down low (because believe me, if word of it got out there'd be a massive revolt). I haven't read the book (I avoid them) but I wouldn't be surprised if that particular paladin met an early end out of "necessity."

[Esna Pitoojee]

I always thought it was definitly hidden and not known at all. 

Same. O_o Considering that there were royal houses literally ready to take off Karsoth's head by the end, I'd think any hint of anything untoward would be jumped on and become a seriously big deal^tm.

[Morwen Lagann]

Going to have to agree with Lyn on this one, I've always been under the impression that Karsoth's sins were hidden.

Just as the most recent blunder of Our Beloved Empress(tm) involving several ripe, young handmaidens and their inability to contain their lusts seems to have been kept on the down low (because believe me, if word of it got out there'd be a massive revolt). I haven't read the book (I avoid them) but I wouldn't be surprised if that particular paladin met an early end out of "necessity."

Yeah. If it'd been known that Karsoth was buddy-buddy with the Covenant, he wouldn't have been able to waddle fast enough to escape the hellfire that would've been after his flabby ass.

As far as Jamyl the Spacelesbian Empress™ goes, I haven't read T1 either, but my understanding is that the event took place many many years ago - well prior to EVE's release? Someone who's read the book would have to verify, but it was implied that Jamyl was young enough at the time that "lol, kids" could possibly have been used as an excuse to sweep it under the carpet if word of it had gotten out - or failing that, just calling it a dirty rumor started by unscrupulous journalists with nothing better to do.

[Ulphus]

My memory is that there were servants and guards all over the place when Karsoth was being all unpleasant.

* Ulphus shrugs

I don't want to know badly enough to read it again.

[Casiella]

Indeed, but the sorts of people that would be servants and guards to the Chamberlain are unlikely to go blabbing to the Amarr Times about what their boss does, right?

[Ulphus]

Indeed, but the sorts of people that would be servants and guards to the Chamberlain are unlikely to go blabbing to the Amarr Times about what their boss does, right?

I don't disagree with that, but that's different from saying that nobody else knew what was going on, at least in a general way. I think it's more likely there would be rumours like "don't let your daughters work for Karsoth, if you can help it" along with knowing nods and slight shudders.

Maybe they said "Without incontrovertible evidence we're not going to bring it up", maybe they said "He's too powerful to do anything about at the moment", maybe they said "As long as he's being mostly discreet, we don't care, they're only slaves". If the last was more common, then why wouldn't other holders with less extreme predilections do the same?

In any case, it's not something I'm going to die in a ditch over, as I said in my original comment

TEA, (I know, I know) ...

is all the defence you needed ...

[Matariki Rain]

We could have a whole discussion on its own about household news-sharing and informants. I have some theories about it, and about how discretion and infiltration work in a world with much less privacy than we're used to, but not enough to say definitively.

I think where we're up to is that it's clearly possible for people of even the highest ranks among the True Amarr to have sex with a slave. Falling for a slave is, however, beneath their dignity (and leads to the usual crises over duty, affection, lust, etc).

Also, what, precisely, would be the problem with Jamyl's teenage experiment with cryllisium before her father's funeral? I've heard cries of outrage about how it makes her unsuitable, but it seems to be one of the more innocuous ways of sowing one's wild oats. It's within her household, with little chance of public or dynastic consequences. It's somewhat context-inappropriate, but not disastrously so. Anyone want to fill in what I've missed?

[Casiella]

It Is Unrighteous.

[Matariki Rain]

It Is Unrighteous.

Is it?

( )

By the way, about the "maidens" attending Jamyl during her grieving: "Some were True Amarr and others were of Minmatar descent."

Slaves? A mix of slaves and the daughters of Sarum Holders? Handmaiden Kameiras?

[lallara zhuul]

Since we're constantly using RL as a reference here.

Would YOU fuck someone who has no free will and has to do anything you say?
Would YOUR social circle approve of such a practice or not?
Would YOU vote for a politician who does such a thing?

In other words, do YOU fuck your household furry animals, plushies or regular?
Do YOU fuck retarded people just because they are easier to manipulate?
Whenever YOU have a position of power, do YOU abuse it?

It seems like there is a several OOC issues displayed in this thread, some as jest some not.

1.) Amarrians are fundamentally Evil.

They're not, they're regular people doing the best that they know.
Just like any person who has taken part in an activity that has been perceived as an atrocity by posterity.
There is no Good or Evil, THAT is a fundamentalist concept that has nothing to do with the real world.

2.) Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts completely.

Neither assumption is true when it comes to Amarrians.
Because of religion, there is only one absolute power and that is God.
And he is always watching.
Corruption only creeps in if the indoctrination of the individual to the culture and the society has failed.
Such an individual would not be able to get to a place of power unless they are socio/psychopaths (like in real world.)

3.) Everything that TonyG has written is somehow portraying New Eden in a truthful way.

It is fiction, it is a space opera.
All storytellers respect the truth so much that they rarely bother with it.

4.) Retcons have somehow made the Lore more cohesive and Right.

Bullshit.
If there is something what they have done, they have made it less cohesive and even harder to decypher.
By adding more tidbits of information that conflict with other tidbits of information.

Whenever Jamyl is brought up I facepalm.
In the succession trials, she was an accomplished Naval officer in a society that has lengthened lifespans for its nobility and glorifies age.
I would expect the Heirs be in the same age bracket.
Which would probably mean that she was over a century old, just like the other Heirs.
Hence Istvaan wanting to see her naked is sooooo hilarious.

[Matariki Rain]

It's clearly a touchy subject.

IRL I think it's great that you find the idea of sex in situations where consent cannot be freely given to be offensive, abhorrent and downright icky.

In EVE, I explore societies which often have features which I would not want IRL. One of the challenges is to shape societies which make sense and manage to function, given the starting points of "people", "settings and resources", and in some cases "initial meme-sets". An Amarrian society where sex with slaves is not that big a deal for the dominant members of the society is plausibly consistent with what we know of these starting points. As a roleplayer I'm pretty culturally relativist about that: it's internally consistent. It's also (depressingly, but also intriguingly) what tends to happen when you have that kind of structural power relationship.

I'm not sure where this leaves our ideas of Amarrians. I'd been trying to look at them on their own terms, and from their own frame of reference. (And then turn it all around to see it as a Minmatar.) I'm getting the sense that that's not enough for you, and you'd like something that felt non-icky to you as a player. Is this the case?

(Ulf's first ever EVE character was Amarrian. He biomassed it once he learnt about the lore on slavery. I understand and respect his position, although I don't share it.)

[Lyn Farel]

That sounds to me like an OOC/IC bleedover issue on your part. I don't even think lallara did any reference to players feelings here, but merely about Amarrians as a culture, nothing more.

An Amarrian society where sex with slaves is not that big a deal for the dominant members of the society is plausibly consistent with what we know of these starting points.

It is ?

[Matariki Rain]

That sounds to me like an OOC/IC bleedover issue on your part. I don't even think lallara did any reference to players feelings here, but merely about Amarrians as a culture, nothing more.

Lyn, how do you read the bit where lallara says:

Since we're constantly using RL as a reference here.

Would YOU fuck someone who has no free will and has to do anything you say?
Would YOUR social circle approve of such a practice or not?
Would YOU vote for a politician who does such a thing?

In other words, do YOU fuck your household furry animals, plushies or regular?
Do YOU fuck retarded people just because they are easier to manipulate?
Whenever YOU have a position of power, do YOU abuse it?

Honest question: I don't know Lall or have tone-of-voice to go on, and the rhetorical techniques being used are open to misinterpretation.