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[Syylara/Yaansu]

Angels are "the Mafia" in general, dabbling in all kinds of illegal activity while also providing muscle or smuggling to other criminal (or even legitimate) groups.

My main difference with this is that I have difficulty connecting the words "gigantic Mafia battleship" in my head. Or, "Mafia shipyard." Or, "Mafia military parade." Just fuggeddaboudit. They're too solidly united to even strike me as vaguely Italian (Italy has a long, long history of raising regional factionalism to a fine art).

Inside the other empires, though, I agree that it works-- if you cross the business aspect with a certain quantity of "infiltration of underworld by hostile foreign power."

Yeah, I agree. 

However, it is also hard to connect the words "gigantic cannibalistic cult battleship/shipyard."  Also, I wasn't meaning to suggest any kind of ethnic flavoring with these comparisons.  Mostly my point was to illustrate that we shouldn't throw blanket generalizations about these factions around.  Each one has its own flavors and twists.

As always, any analogy breaks down at a certain point :9.

[Nmaro Makari]

Oh yeah, I more meant how they governed their regions (Curse, Venal, etc.), and the people that live in them.

Poorly, worded sorry. Should have elaborated that what I meant was that "citizens" in Angel or Serp territory would probably be on a "protection" sort of basis i.e. pay and nothing bad happens to you. Guristas would probably be more anarchy or maybe with a loose code thing.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

Oh yeah, I more meant how they governed their regions (Curse, Venal, etc.), and the people that live in them.

Poorly, worded sorry. Should have elaborated that what I meant was that "citizens" in Angel or Serp territory would probably be on a "protection" sort of basis i.e. pay and nothing bad happens to you. Guristas would probably be more anarchy or maybe with a loose code thing.

From the Guristas Evelopedia entry:

"Mining colonies

The Guristas often take over ruins in deadspace pockets, creating civilian-staffed mining colonies they protect with spaceship fleets and defense turrets. The Guristas are apparently willing to pay for revenge against capsuleers and others who destroy any civilian mining colonies under their protection."

[Oserik Illard]

I'm inclined to agree with Aria's POV, basically that most of (but not all of) the pirate empires aren't really "pirate empires" in the literal sense, but rogue states. A better term might be "mafia states," a trendy topic in certain foreign relations circles at the moment.

Check out the article below, it was in Foreign Affairs a couple months back, but those bastards are now charging to read the whole thing, so I found a free version:

http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/04/25/mafia-states/ah37

Obviously, it's an imperfect comparison with EVE, but I think the article sort of puts things in perspective. Countries where criminals hold the reins of power can still function, to a certain degree, as states (and when I say criminals I'm talking about major drug and/or human traffickers and murderers, not people who engage in insider trading, misuse campaign contributions, or hand a government contract to their brother in law).

[Chell Charon]

Sanshas Nation
=
North Korea with super science

That is all.

[Victoria Stecker]

http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/04/25/mafia-states/ah37

Obviously, it's an imperfect comparison with EVE, but I think the article sort of puts things in perspective. Countries where criminals hold the reins of power can still function, to a certain degree, as states (and when I say criminals I'm talking about major drug and/or human traffickers and murderers, not people who engage in insider trading, misuse campaign contributions, or hand a government contract to their brother in law).

Awesome article. I think the major distinction between this and EVE is that IRL Mafia states develop from normal states getting intertwined with organized crime. I would imagine that this compares closely to certain systems on the fringes of the empires, where local governors have decided they can better expand their influence/power/wealth though OC rather than through legitimate means.

What’s interesting is how things would develop in places where there wasn’t a previous government. For example, in Cartel territory, who handles infrastructure? One of the purposes of government is to “provide for the common good,” which means doing things like building roads which are too expensive for any one person to be willing to pay for them. Infrastructure is often one of the first victims of corruption, but is vital for economic development. The predictable result is that economic development suffers and even reverses as infrastructure deteriorates.

But what about cases where there never was a legitimate, honest government in the first place to build infrastructure at all? The poorest nations in the world are the ones that started out corrupt and never changed. They never built the necessary infrastructure in the first place, and as a result their economies are nearly non-existent.

So we’ve got two categories of corrupt nation: Those that started out legitimately, built infrastructure, built their nation, and then became corrupted (See: Russia, Venezuela, etc); and those that never did, leading to a complete lack of economic development and widespread poverty (See: Somalia, other african dictatorships).

I can see there being a lot of systems around the fringes of the empires and lowsec that resemble the first category. But once you get out to NPC nullsec, I would expect to see more of the latter. This would result in large portions of Curse and possibly Delve being fairly impoverished as Seri suggested.

So here’s the question:
Would the leaders/authority figures of the various pirate factions actually be willing to spend money on things which are “for the common good” like roads, hospitals, etc, rather than doing the usual corrupt thing and keeping the money for themselves?

[Seriphyn]

Nice post, Stecker. I think one step in considering that is that these are space-faring empires and not land-based countries. It all comes down to how much value a planet has to these factions. The empires were built bottom up from planet-born civilizations; whether they conquered like the Amarr or globalized like the Gallente, still the same principle.

However, the pirate factions were not born from civilizations. They emerged as space-based entities and then claimed planets (I'm assuming). So a completely inverted approach. It begs the question if planets are considered the 'building blocks' of these factions like they are in the empires, and are vital to their survival. But considering these pirate factions rely on the space-based economy and system to survive (of which they were born), I doubt it. If their primary activities are space piracy, space black market, etc. then it is unclear what value planets have to them, especially that deadspace can provide for all space-based activities.

Incidentally, they seem to invest heavily in deadspace infrastructural development, for the benefit of their organization (supplies, ships etc.). It's probably not all-or-nothing; if the planets have no value to them, they're left alone to do whatever they want. However, if they need something from them, then...

[Gymir Asaadan]

I knew just reading the title of this thread that I was going to disagree enough to post. Damnit...

But then suddenly Aria and I am left feeling fulfilled. Well mostly, two other things I wanted to bring up, I thought some of the PF suggested that the majority of the "pirate" factions received AID/support from at least one, if not more, of the four empires?

Stands to reason that Amarr would help the Angels a bit since they keep at least part of the Minmatar fleet busy fighting them, Gallente help the Gurista's, for the same reason that the Caldari would help the Serpentis. Think of it a little like the US/UK/others sending aid to "freedom fighters" in other countries, in order to help them against foe supported incumbent governments or vice versa. Lots of War's by proxy out there. Not sure how true that is?

Also these Pirate factions seem to have a bit more of a corporate structure then has been given them credit for, with singular "leaders" of some kind or another, it would stand to reason, as with current day gangs and mafia, that the better organized groups would eliminate the more disorganized groups in pretty short order, or, just as likely, absorb them as well. Maybe less structured than say, the Minmatar Navy, but still overall organized in a way that makes them efficient and productive. (nice post by Victoria that covers a bit of this well, ofc posted while I was writing this)

Seri; I'm not sure it's right to say "The pirate factions were not born from civilizations." I would say that while their population doesn't seem to come from just planets, that they are still originating from one of the civilizations(empires) or another. It's a truth that people need places to live, and be that in a space station or on a planet. If people face persecution in the empires, they would likely move out to unknown space to be with people who believed or acted as they did. While it would likely be very wild-west out there, and rough living, I have a hard time thinking that it would be completely without saving graces that would lure more people out there.

Leaders of pirate corps might live a million times better than their "subjects" you can hardly expect that if they treated their people like garbage, ie no medical care, no money spent on infrastructure, that new recruits would continue to join their ranks. "That place is horrible, and disease ridden, and people are dying all the time, hardly enough people left alive to create a living." doesn't sound to me like a place people would desire to move to or live in, they would instead be more willing to follow a leader who might still be a dictator but has at least some regard for the people.

[Silas Vitalia]

I didn't explain myself eloquently enough, but I only mean that often 'legitimate' states are simply 'rogue' states that have developed to a certain extent and become accepted.

One cartel, or leader, or organization eventually takes charge, and as their power is legitimized they stabilize their territory and they eventually have to provide security, infrastructure, and all the societal needs of their peoples.

Look at places in Central America where the cartels are 100% running the show; once there is no fighting over territory they step in where the 'state' has failed and start taking care of their people. They need workers to be productive like any other organization and they get more out of it when they provide a stable environment, etc.

The Mayor of Chicago for 20 years was a legitimate member of the Irish street gangs that fought for power and killed or incarcerated all of their rivals. They figured the system out, rigged the politics, and 'elected' their gang members into office, and then proceeded to lock up all of their gang rivals and run the city for the last 70 years or so. 

Look at all the oligarchs running Russia or any number of Eastern European countries. 

[Silas Vitalia]

I also remember the Burning Life novel going to great extent in showing that the 'everyday' people among many of the Pirate Factions aren't all that different than any other big four citizens.  IE The Blood Raider's grandmother, etc...

[Casiella]

Anybody familiar with the history of the American Revolution can see significant elements of what Silas is saying there as well. Let's see, wealthy racist slave owners who don't want to pay taxes...

[Seriphyn]

Seri; I'm not sure it's right to say "The pirate factions were not born from civilizations." I would say that while their population doesn't seem to come from just planets, that they are still originating from one of the civilizations(empires) or another. It's a truth that people need places to live, and be that in a space station or on a planet. If people face persecution in the empires, they would likely move out to unknown space to be with people who believed or acted as they did. While it would likely be very wild-west out there, and rough living, I have a hard time thinking that it would be completely without saving graces that would lure more people out there.

Leaders of pirate corps might live a million times better than their "subjects" you can hardly expect that if they treated their people like garbage, ie no medical care, no money spent on infrastructure, that new recruits would continue to join their ranks. "That place is horrible, and disease ridden, and people are dying all the time, hardly enough people left alive to create a living." doesn't sound to me like a place people would desire to move to or live in, they would instead be more willing to follow a leader who might still be a dictator but has at least some regard for the people.

When I say born of civilizations, I mean emerging from a single planet to expand their culture and nation over an area of space. The pirate factions are 'top-down' in comparison, and don't have concepts of nationhood as I mentioned earlier :>

I think there's a dichotomy to be made between people who live as apart of the pirate factions, and those who live under the pirate factions. If people are going to move out from their societies (putting aside it's suggested people would consider the Federation first), they're going to join the pirate organizations directly where, yes, they'll be treated well.

However, as was pointed out, not everyone who lives in Curse are apart of the Angel Cartel necessarily, so their conditions would be frontier-level (it's nullsec for a reason after all). I don't think Guristas lure to Venal, or Angel Cartel lure to Curse. Guristas lure to Guristas, Cartel lures to Cartel. And since these guys operate anywhere, you don't even need to move out there to be apart of them.

[Victoria Stecker]

I think these actually illustrate my point fairly well:

Look at places in Central America where the cartels are 100% running the show; once there is no fighting over territory they step in where the 'state' has failed and start taking care of their people. They need workers to be productive like any other organization and they get more out of it when they provide a stable environment, etc.

The Mayor of Chicago for 20 years was a legitimate member of the Irish street gangs that fought for power and killed or incarcerated all of their rivals. They figured the system out, rigged the politics, and 'elected' their gang members into office, and then proceeded to lock up all of their gang rivals and run the city for the last 70 years or so. 

Look at all the oligarchs running Russia or any number of Eastern European countries.

These are all instances of a strong, pre-existing central government being corrupted and taken over by criminal interests. In russia in particular, there is still a strong central government doing its job to take care of the people, maintaining stuff, etc. They are doing so with the approval/blessing of the oligarchs and criminals who recognize that infrastructure is important for them, but the criminals themselves aren't diong the day-to-day governing. They're busy making money.

So did the Cartel, for example, take over curse by corrupting every single planetary government in the area? This seems more likely than them building the governments/infrastructure from scratch.

The Guristas would have done something similar, I'd imagine. The Serpentis did something more like the Russian model, moving in as a powerful corporate interest (rather than criminal) and corrupting the local systems to their benefit. And then you've got the Sani Sabik, which probably spread as just an underground cult until they realized that their membership included everyone in charge in Delve and they stopped bothering to hide.

The Sansha are the only group I can see actually moving into a place where there isn't an existing governing structure and setting up shop from scratch.

[Silas Vitalia]

I think these actually illustrate my point fairly well:

Look at places in Central America where the cartels are 100% running the show; once there is no fighting over territory they step in where the 'state' has failed and start taking care of their people. They need workers to be productive like any other organization and they get more out of it when they provide a stable environment, etc.

The Mayor of Chicago for 20 years was a legitimate member of the Irish street gangs that fought for power and killed or incarcerated all of their rivals. They figured the system out, rigged the politics, and 'elected' their gang members into office, and then proceeded to lock up all of their gang rivals and run the city for the last 70 years or so. 

Look at all the oligarchs running Russia or any number of Eastern European countries.

These are all instances of a strong, pre-existing central government being corrupted and taken over by criminal interests. In russia in particular, there is still a strong central government doing its job to take care of the people, maintaining stuff, etc. They are doing so with the approval/blessing of the oligarchs and criminals who recognize that infrastructure is important for them, but the criminals themselves aren't diong the day-to-day governing. They're busy making money.

So did the Cartel, for example, take over curse by corrupting every single planetary government in the area? This seems more likely than them building the governments/infrastructure from scratch.

The Guristas would have done something similar, I'd imagine. The Serpentis did something more like the Russian model, moving in as a powerful corporate interest (rather than criminal) and corrupting the local systems to their benefit. And then you've got the Sani Sabik, which probably spread as just an underground cult until they realized that their membership included everyone in charge in Delve and they stopped bothering to hide.

The Sansha are the only group I can see actually moving into a place where there isn't an existing governing structure and setting up shop from scratch.

+1

Especially for Sansha, I'd consider them a bit of the odd man out with regards to the model we are discussing.

[Gymir Asaadan]

When I say born of civilizations, I mean emerging from a single planet to expand their culture and nation over an area of space. The pirate factions are 'top-down' in comparison, and don't have concepts of nationhood as I mentioned earlier :>

I think there's a dichotomy to be made between people who live as apart of the pirate factions, and those who live under the pirate factions. If people are going to move out from their societies (putting aside it's suggested people would consider the Federation first), they're going to join the pirate organizations directly where, yes, they'll be treated well.

However, as was pointed out, not everyone who lives in Curse are a part of the Angel Cartel necessarily, so their conditions would be frontier-level (it's nullsec for a reason after all). I don't think Guristas lure to Venal, or Angel Cartel lure to Curse. Guristas lure to Guristas, Cartel lures to Cartel. And since these guys operate anywhere, you don't even need to move out there to be a part of them.

apart - separated, removed from, in a seperate section of, ie "To take a watch apart"
a part (of) - included in, ie "Those kids are a part of that family."

Now with that more clear and fixed in your quote and my ADD settled enough for me to respond...

How exactly do you think gangs are formed in the first place? Like people draw together to defend themselves or create a life where they are successful and able to live well.  While there might not be an entire planet that drove the formation of the Gurista's/angels, they did start from a single planet, likely from a single group, led by a single person, who believes and leads his members. While luring might not be exact like Angels lure to curse, you kind of kill that point with the follow up to Cartel lures to Cartel, okay well the Cartel is in CURSE, so if you want to go be a part of the Cartel, it might make sense to head to Curse if you can't find your 'local' chapter of the cartel.

Members of the pirate factions are probably labelled as criminals and to escape that they might tend to go somewhere that the "law" of whatever empire wants to put them into prison, doesn't reach. Hence moving out to Curse, or Venal, or where ever. To retain those people, those organizations must have at least the ability to support them.

Back to one thing that is bugging me, does it take an entire planet to form a civilization? So basically Earth has no civilizations because our entire planet doesn't have a singular civilization, or do we have many civilizations and cultures that all co-exist to some extend or another on this planet? Sorry that sounds overly accusatory, but my baseline point is that it doesn't take an entire planet agreeing on how things are to form a civilization.