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[lallara zhuul]

Perhaps only the bloodlines that have been known for their loyalty towards the empire that gives the capsuleer training are allowed. The whole concept of free capsuleers has its training wheels on and perhaps the empires want to eliminate the most obvious reasons that the whole concept would fail.

By keeping the untrustworthy bloodlines out of the program.

Of course by now the empires should know that the free capsuleer program is a bust and should scrap it.

Unless it is working just the way they want it to.

The point I am trying to make is that it is as easy for the player to explain the restrictions of the game mechanics in the terms of the game world instead of spending their time hand waving and fighting the restrictions given by the game mechanics.

It is up to the player to take the game mechanics as a challenge and use them as an added limitation in creation of their character.

I find it easier to create a character within the perceived game world (in any setting) than spending time in each interaction explaining the extraordinary circumstances that my special snowflake went through to be extra special.

Unless that is the reason you choose the path that is not there.

[Matariki Rain]

Lallara, are you advocating "playing the core": playing a typical character within the system?

If you are, I'm all for it, personally. I am, however, also willing to free up space for--even aid and abet--other players who want to do something that's a plausible extension of the core, while keeping the shared world and "core" flavour intact.


And it gets a little frustrating when saying "This is EVE: let's play an EVE game. We'll probably need to chat about what that means as we go along" seems to get interpreted as being petty and OCD.

[lallara zhuul]

Yup, I'm advocating what you would describe as 'playing the core'.

The problem with making exceptions to the 'rules' is that people tend to live under the delusion that they are those special ones that the exceptions are for.

Let's take the Liberal Amarrian archetype.

Clearly in the game world it is a minority, yet the roleplaying Amarrians that are in the RP community feel that they are playing special characters and therefore they should be the exceptions in the society hence they are Liberal Amarrians.

In the RP community they are the majority of the Amarrian roleplayers.

I think it speaks volumes of the motivations of the players on why they roleplay, but these are not the forums that you can have that kind of discussion on.

[Natalcya Katla]

The way I see it, it's a lot easier to disregard a single paragraph of text in a pilot's info window than to go to the trouble of explaining away what is essentially a shortcoming in game mechanics, in an attempt to have it make some convoluted sense in IC terms. Especially if one player's explanation of why say, the Mannar aren't allowed to fly turns out to be inconsistent with three other players' attempts to explain away that same thing. In which case the entire thing ends up detracting from immersion rather than adding to it.

It should be noted that I still believe a character's background should make logical sense within the setting. A Gallente pilot claiming to be Mannar is perfectly fine in my book. A pilot of whatever race claiming to be a drow who climbed through a portal in another universe and ended up in New Eden - not so fine.

[Seriphyn]

Mannar IV is also a gas giant, with no temperate planet in the system, despite saying they'd fix it. Mannar have not been retconned out of the game since they come out multiple times and so forth, gameplay and storyline segregation is always needed to various degrees.

[Lyn Farel]

Perhaps only the bloodlines that have been known for their loyalty towards the empire that gives the capsuleer training are allowed. The whole concept of free capsuleers has its training wheels on and perhaps the empires want to eliminate the most obvious reasons that the whole concept would fail.

By keeping the untrustworthy bloodlines out of the program.

Of course by now the empires should know that the free capsuleer program is a bust and should scrap it.

Unless it is working just the way they want it to.

The point I am trying to make is that it is as easy for the player to explain the restrictions of the game mechanics in the terms of the game world instead of spending their time hand waving and fighting the restrictions given by the game mechanics.

It is up to the player to take the game mechanics as a challenge and use them as an added limitation in creation of their character.

I find it easier to create a character within the perceived game world (in any setting) than spending time in each interaction explaining the extraordinary circumstances that my special snowflake went through to be extra special.

Unless that is the reason you choose the path that is not there.

That's always the dilemna, isnt it ? You have to choose between playing strictly by the book and get completely limitated in the RP you will bring to the community, always and always bringing the same lore in the community, and choosing other backgrounds that retain absolutely nothing of the special snowflake syndrome, but yet, that are not playable ingame due to game developpement limitations. Sacrifying characters "show info" vs sacrifying RP diversity. I consider the choice to be easy, especially since we can still find stupid excuses (but excuses nevertheless) to explain why the info is wrong.

The word may be a bit strong, but keeping ourselves limitated to the mere 12 bloodlines coming from only 4 major factions we get at the character creation sounds almost like RP consanguinity to me, since it is maybe a quarter of the background possibilities the lore has to offer. Then, people complain that the same subjects and debates always come back and that people get sick of reading the same things again and again. I do think that character of secondary bloodlines are invaluable for the RP diversity. When I meet Krusual characters, Thukker characters or the likes, that are by the way, very rare, they always bring a lot of new incentives for new and fresh RP to have. I want more of those.

That's not like if people were playing Joves, which would sound unreasonable.

[Desiderya]

I don't really think someone playing a non-character creation bloodline is *really* a problem. There are far more serious ( some might say, "omg r u serious" ) cases of special snowflake running around.

[lallara zhuul]

It is easy to explain the limitation of 12 bloodlines in the character generation.

The empires have only gone through those 12 bloodlines and their genetic compatibility with the capsuleer program. It took them several years to go through the 3 oriental ones and they are probably going through a new set of bloodlines and finding capsuleers from them.

It is hard to come up with a special story why your special genetic cocktail got into the capsuleer program. Especially since it increases the suspension of disbelief in the one listening to that story.

The RP diversity vs sticking to the rules just does not fly.

There is zero incentive for me to participate in RP with a person that makes it hard for me to interact with them.

This includes:
-Talking in a fan created language.
-Emoting in a way pertaining to their fan created culture.
-A mindset that would force me to read their evelopedia entry or their IC blog or their fan fiction about their own nook of the culture that they are part of.

What drew me to EVE RP was that it was so easy to take part in.

This includes:
-Blowing shit up.
-Talking in character in a channel with other people in character and creating the history of EVE together.
-Flying around in Amarr only ships as an IC act.

All perfectly in game, all within the mechanics, all fun as hell.

The special snowflake thing does not come into play at all, until preconceived ways of forcing my interaction to them came into play.
Which all tended to spring from the special snowflake thing.

Be it someone being a Holder, be it someone being a Cylon, a Drone wannabe, a Shaman, child of a High mucketymuck, a superstar or resurrected General from 2k years ago.

I believe that only reasons for a RPer to ever alter their interaction to a certain way should be from in game actions and on extension from the mechanics.

Never from a background that a player has created somewhere to warm the cockles of his/her heart.

I understand that there is a tendency in this community to call this kind of marysueism 'World Building', which it is not.

It is playing make belief (roleplaying) with the sole reason of escapism and using that to make yourself feel better.

To me the difference is this.

All children roleplay when they play, they pretend that a stick is a sword and the dog a dragon.
They put a kettle on their head and 'slay the dragon'.
They have a hoot and a half.

It is easy.

That is roleplay to me.

It is not playing with the other kids and telling them you are princess and they should be your servants.

Sure, some kids will play with you for a while.
Call you a princess and pretend to be your suitors and servants.
But slowly and surely all the kids will leave you alone playing princess.
Then you will run home and tell your parents and cry to them.
Then your parents will go to the kids and tell them to play with you.

Then you tell them that you are a princess and they are all your servants.

Most of them will roll their eyes and go play something else.

Some will sheepishly play with you and nobody has fun except you.

That is not something that I ever want to see in a RP community.

People wanting to be special and screaming that their RP diversity is being oppressed.

When all they want to do is be princesses and others to make them feel better.

I believe that mature players have dealt with their shit and will not bring any to their roleplaying.
I believe that mature players do not have a real reason to create a Mary Sue in any setting.
I also believe that no person anywhere has the right to dump their shit on others and expect others to make them feel better.

Mainly because dealing with all that shit is hard.

And roleplaying should always be easy.

[Casiella]

Lallara, no one is suggesting that you should interact with people whose RP does not appeal to you for whatever reason, including the "special snowflake" reasons you outline above. However, I personally don't think it's useful for a player to make it difficult for two other players to interact. So if two pilots claiming to be, say, Thukker have a conversation in the Summit (or some other channel where you are listening) about their respective caravans, would you say the better approach is to ignore them because it's hard for you to interact or to loudly proclaim that they are liars and traitors to their real tribes as indicated on their character sheet?

[Malcolm Khross]

While I understand where you're coming from Lallara, I have to go with Casiella on this one. The beauty of RP is using imagination and allowing a bit of freedom, and as long as doing so doesn't break the disbelief factor or prohibit others from having fun, I don't see a lot of issues with it. If someone wants to play a mixed or diverse heritage on their character and does so believably, or wants to play a Holder and does so believably, then that's part of RP.

How people respond to those things, as long as their responses are also believable, is also RP. Screaming that they're not doing things according to the rules or that they're liars or whatever breaks immersion as well and ruins the fun for everyone else, just because you're not happy with what's being RPed.

[Victoria Stecker]

Anyone who does anything differently than me is doing it wrong. 

Ok, so that's not actually what you said, but it certainly has the "there's only one right way to RP in EVE" vibe to it. There are bits and pieces of what you said that make sense, and bits and pieces that seem a bit... I'm not sure what. For example;

I believe that mature players have dealt with their shit and will not bring any to their roleplaying.
I believe that mature players do not have a real reason to create a Mary Sue in any setting.
I also believe that no person anywhere has the right to dump their shit on others and expect others to make them feel better.

Mainly because dealing with all that shit is hard.

Completely agree. Deal with that stuff IRL, don't bring it into RP. On the other hand,

What drew me to EVE RP was that it was so easy to take part in.

I think this is the key point. This is what drew you into RP. This is not necessarily what draws anyone else. If someone else is doing something creative that makes interacting with them 'hard' for you, then just don't. It's like choosing not to talk to a troll because it's a troll.

Frankly, the things you define as "hard" I call "interesting" so long as they are done well. Someone claiming to be something massively contradictory to the PF, probably won't fly. Someone simply claiming to be a part of a bloodline that CCP put into the lore but not into the character creator? That's pretty tame, and can lead to interesting interactions and discussions.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

There is zero incentive for me to participate in RP with a person that makes it hard for me to interact with them.

This includes:
-Talking in a fan created language.
-Emoting in a way pertaining to their fan created culture.
-A mindset that would force me to read their evelopedia entry or their IC blog or their fan fiction about their own nook of the culture that they are part of.

You don't have to read a character sheet, an evelopedia entry or IC blog to interact with someone in game any more than you have to have reviewed someone's resume and character references to interact with them in real life.

Someone's character background and experiences can merely be a guidepost for how they respond to IC situations their characters find themselves in and nothing more.  Your knowledge of those things should reveal naturally over time (or maybe even not at all?).

I understand that there is a tendency in this community to call this kind of marysueism 'World Building', which it is not.

It is playing make belief (roleplaying) with the sole reason of escapism and using that to make yourself feel better.

Ok, you're lumping two entirely separate things together.  Creating a unique concept is not the same thing as hyper-idealizing.

To me the difference is this.

All children roleplay when they play, they pretend that a stick is a sword and the dog a dragon.
They put a kettle on their head and 'slay the dragon'.
They have a hoot and a half.

It is easy.

That is roleplay to me.

It is not playing with the other kids and telling them you are princess and they should be your servants.

Sure, some kids will play with you for a while.
Call you a princess and pretend to be your suitors and servants.
But slowly and surely all the kids will leave you alone playing princess.
Then you will run home and tell your parents and cry to them.
Then your parents will go to the kids and tell them to play with you.

Then you tell them that you are a princess and they are all your servants.

Most of them will roll their eyes and go play something else.

Some will sheepishly play with you and nobody has fun except you.

That is not something that I ever want to see in a RP community.

People wanting to be special and screaming that their RP diversity is being oppressed.

When all they want to do is be princesses and others to make them feel better.

I believe that mature players have dealt with their shit and will not bring any to their roleplaying.
I believe that mature players do not have a real reason to create a Mary Sue in any setting.
I also believe that no person anywhere has the right to dump their shit on others and expect others to make them feel better.

You're engaging in a massively presumptuous level of generalization here.

Just smearing anyone who wants to color outside of the mechanics-restricted lines as wanting everyone to kiss their ass because of a supposed desperate need for personal fulfillment.

Maybe some people just like being creative?

There is such a thing as doing something because you enjoy it, why does anything else need to be read into it?

Hurling a bunch of pejorative conjecture doesn't really advance the conversation in a constructive way.

[Lyn Farel]

There is nothing especially creative in playing a bloodline that is not in the character creator, by the way. The people that were creative when inventing the bloodlines in question are CCP, not us, the players, using the material that was created by CCP.

It is easy to explain the limitation of 12 bloodlines in the character generation.

The empires have only gone through those 12 bloodlines and their genetic compatibility with the capsuleer program. It took them several years to go through the 3 oriental ones and they are probably going through a new set of bloodlines and finding capsuleers from them.

Since everyone is supposed to be human besides rogue drones and sleepers (and genetically modified Jove ?), you will have to excuse me if I do not believe that genetic compatibility is tied to a difference between bloodlines.

But maybe, I have heard more stretched player made explanations. What I mean here is why should we take for granted your personnal explanation on the matter, if we follow your line of thought ?

The RP diversity vs sticking to the rules just does not fly.

There is zero incentive for me to participate in RP with a person that makes it hard for me to interact with them.

This includes:
-Talking in a fan created language.
-Emoting in a way pertaining to their fan created culture.
-A mindset that would force me to read their evelopedia entry or their IC blog or their fan fiction about their own nook of the culture that they are part of.

What drew me to EVE RP was that it was so easy to take part in.

This includes:
-Blowing shit up.
-Talking in character in a channel with other people in character and creating the history of EVE together.
-Flying around in Amarr only ships as an IC act.

All perfectly in game, all within the mechanics, all fun as hell.

Considering all RPers can't even agree on the PF itself, where is the difference ? Sounds a little naive to me.

[Louella Dougans]

Or, you know, somebody hacks into the school registration DB to list you or get you admitted just because of CONCORD licensing requirements.

this is a thing that keeps coming up.

"Somebody hacks in".

Any time someone wants to bring an oog-derived piece of information, "i hacked into...".

Someone knows what Roden and Foiritain talked about in that scene in Templar One, because "they hacked into..."

It is used a lot to bully other players into accepting someone's particular spiel about something.

It arbitrarily dictates that whatever it was, has no effective information security.

it dictates that the Someone is a 0.1% of a 0.1% of a 0.1% who is able to do this sort of thing.

And it is the same method, as to take anything that someone writes, e.g. on a blog, and to then use it ingame. "they hacked into X's private files".

Yes. of course they did.

[BloodBird]

Or, you know, somebody hacks into the school registration DB to list you or get you admitted just because of CONCORD licensing requirements.

this is a thing that keeps coming up.

"Somebody hacks in".

Any time someone wants to bring an oog-derived piece of information, "i hacked into...".

Someone knows what Roden and Foiritain talked about in that scene in Templar One, because "they hacked into..."

It is used a lot to bully other players into accepting someone's particular spiel about something.

It arbitrarily dictates that whatever it was, has no effective information security.

it dictates that the Someone is a 0.1% of a 0.1% of a 0.1% who is able to do this sort of thing.

And it is the same method, as to take anything that someone writes, e.g. on a blog, and to then use it ingame. "they hacked into X's private files".

Yes. of course they did.

Special snowflakes, somehow having the uber skills to find this kind of info that others assume is unaccessible IC, then using it like they are the awesome messenger "I found out the empress is involved in decadent orgies on a regular basis and that she's a telepath that reads everyone's mind and RABBLERABBLERABBLELOKITMELOKITME" and so on and so forth.

Ignore OOC and IC, ignore IC, ridicule and shun IC, berate OOC and whatever IC, pick whatever one you want, just don't play along. NEVER EVER play along with this, it will lead to anyone claiming whatever 'secretive' info-revelation they want to score points and be the hero of the hour or really special being accepted as the uber-leet toons whom we should all cater to. No thanks.

While I love RP and all the different things one can do/RP as/create in EVE's lore there goes a line where the unaccessible stuff suddenly become accessible to the special few and are used as their pedestal to instant fame and glory. Don't cross this line. Shun, ignore or educate those who do, but don't accept it - fame and glory belongs to those who earn it, and most ways require soem effort and work, not to mention time. The great and renowned names of our 'RP-corner' of EVE as well as the well-known 'regular' players got to thier positions and fame due to years of effort and hard work. You don't get that instantly by finding some clever (or not so clever) way of posting well-known  OOC but well-hidden/unkown IC facts in an IC way.

TL;DR; 'I hacked into whatever' is a cheap-shot to equally cheap fame and should not been rewarded in any way, save getting some talking to OOC about why it's not acceptable.