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[Merdaneth]

I am under the impression that role-play in EVE and what actually happens 'in-space' is growing further apart. Judging from the Intergalactic Summit forum, but also the IC channels, role-players seem to play and exist largely in their own little RP-bubble. A bubble were important galaxy-spanning events like the Goonswarm LP scam, Hulkageddon or even the Goonswarm-Star Fraction mutual ally war-dec don't exist or are simply ignored and hardly mentioned in-character.

How can people talk about their hairstyles, the latest relationships and not mention such things at all unless they consciously choose to not make such events part of their RP. Does it mean that such events simply don't exist within their RP-bubble? Are they discarded as to 'gamist' and therefore having no place in their RP world?

I got the feeling that more and more players separate their play in 'EVE the game' from their play in 'EVE world', and and can happily play a Amarr loyalist who's gameplay is supported by regular donations of isk from an alt enrolled in the TLF.

[Mizhara]

That does sound very familiar, yes. Couldn't even begin to figure out the cause but it has been that way for quite some time. Of course, it's hardly universal but it's widespread enough to be... weird. Just one more reason being too busy to play MMOs doesn't bother me all that much. Hell, I even remember a debate in OoC (and Red's, I believe) where it turned out that if you wardec someone over RP, you're apparently an asshole. Facepalmed myself into quite the concussion at the time.

[Seriphyn]

Mostly because I find the actual flying gameplay rubbish personally, but I really love the setting. Gameplay for PvP is all zoomed out so that whatever pretty ship you're flying is irrelevant since you can't see it, and enlarge the overview so you're doing that old "spreadsheets online".

PvE isn't much better. 50+ ships pounding on one invincible ship while you whittle them down one-by-one is a suspension breaker for me. Guess I'm into more visceral games. At any rate, I did my 'put up or shut up' thing back towards the end of 2009 with eff-doubleya. Of course it's coming up to 3 years since then, but meh.

That's just me, and I'm pretty sure it's not representative of the whole community. I couldn't put a finger on it exactly. Maybe the lack of putting up is a cyclical thing where others feel they don't need to put up either.

[Lyn Farel]

In terms of what happens on the screen (artistically) and immersion, eve gameplay is shitty at best. But I have difficulties to relate that to inspace actions RP vs self constructed RP. I use both to get the maximum out of both.

[Victoria Stecker]

A number of random thoughts in no particular order with only mild coherence. It's not yet noon, I probably shouldn't even be posting.

I am under the impression that role-play in EVE and what actually happens 'in-space' is growing further apart. Judging from the Intergalactic Summit forum, but also the IC channels, role-players seem to play and exist largely in their own little RP-bubble. A bubble were important galaxy-spanning events like the Goonswarm LP scam, Hulkageddon or even the Goonswarm-Star Fraction mutual ally war-dec don't exist or are simply ignored and hardly mentioned in-character.

My feeling is that some of this stuff is so horrifically immersion breaking ( ) that people ignore it because they aren't really sure how to incorporate it into the RP in a manner that doesn't buttfuck the RP. In these examples, CCP's mild incompetence and/or repeated failure to think through the possible abuses of their decisions are something we've become accustomed to, but how do we talk about it IC?

do we treat it as ammunition for the "CONCORD is incompetent" argument, because of what they did to the wardeck system (and what they're about to do to it again)?

Do we laugh about how all four of the empire militias at once decided to be pants-on-head retarded and create a pricing scheme that was begging to be abused? But then what do we say if/when CCP decides to take away the Goons' ill-gotten gains? Having the Hand Of CCP reach out of the nether and take away all the stuff they got (LPs, items, whatever they decide) once again puts a hurt on immersion.

It would be possible to use it as fodder for IC discussion, for example someone could use it as evidence that despite our so-called freedom we are still under CONCORD's thumb, but most people (apparently) would rather ignore it.

Hulkageddon, on the other hand, works perfectly IC, and I've seen it talked about as such. But that's because it's actually something being done by the players within the existing system, rather than the players taking advantage of non-sensical and immersion-breaking fuckups of said system by CCP.

I got the feeling that more and more players separate their play in 'EVE the game' from their play in 'EVE world', and and can happily play a Amarr loyalist who's gameplay is supported by regular donations of isk from an alt enrolled in the TLF.

This strikes me as an example of what you might call power gaming? Maybe? it's the usual "there's no IC justification for my characters to be sharing isk, but they're doing it anyways" put into a more blatantly wtf context IC. That sentence made sense in my head. players are willing to overlook stuff not making sense IC as long as it is to their advantage, I suppose? The hyper-competitive nature of the game and obvious opportunities for metagaming that wouldn't ever happen in a normal RPG just make this too easy.

And, you know, the fact that the minnie militia is a great place to make isk, while the amarr militia requires a bit of masochism at the moment.

Hell, I even remember a debate in OoC (and Red's, I believe) where it turned out that if you wardec someone over RP, you're apparently an asshole. Facepalmed myself into quite the concussion at the time.

To me, this sounds like someone who plays EVE as a game, and then just throws some RP on top of it for fun and to pass the time, rather than thinking that that should be the point or focus or even really matter. And you know, there's probably a place for people in the game that want channel RP but don't really want it to have consequences. They just get startled when they run into people to take RP seriously because, well, it's what they do.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I think Victoria has hit it on the head: Increasingly, to treat the larger game world IC demands that we assume everyone from Sansha Kuvakei to CONCORD to NPC pilots are complete and utter morons. While this is fine for some characters, it's extremely difficult for the larger community to embrace.

With respect to the issue of people having alts on opposite sides of the IC game who support each other: This does seem to be a new-ish thing, and probably merits a whole separate thread in and of itself. Perhaps I was just missing it in the past, but there also seems to be a trend now of people RPing characters on both sides of a conflict as well.

Hell, I even remember a debate in OoC (and Red's, I believe) where it turned out that if you wardec someone over RP, you're apparently an asshole. Facepalmed myself into quite the concussion at the time.

To me, this sounds like someone who plays EVE as a game, and then just throws some RP on top of it for fun and to pass the time, rather than thinking that that should be the point or focus or even really matter. And you know, there's probably a place for people in the game that want channel RP but don't really want it to have consequences. They just get startled when they run into people to take RP seriously because, well, it's what they do.

If I'm thinking of the same discussion, it was actually sort of the opposite: They had begun to RP in the game first and wanted to stay involved in the game, but RL stuff demanded they pay via PLEX, which they acquired with copious amounts of L4 grinding. When the potential of a wardec came up, they wanted the situation to be resolved in some other way since being hunted personally (they were in a 2-person corp) would more or less mean they would be unable to pay their subscription and would have to leave the game.

[Ken]

How can people talk about their hairstyles, the latest relationships and not mention such things at all unless they consciously choose to not make such events part of their RP. Does it mean that such events simply don't exist within their RP-bubble? Are they discarded as to 'gamist' and therefore having no place in their RP world?

Actually, I think this is fairly believable behavior.

Ask any sampling of teenagers (or adults!) what the election of Morsi to the Egyptian presidency means to them.  Or ask them how the the Syrian civil war or the FARC affects their day-to-day lives.  Ask them how they feel about Foxconn, the Greek elections, or credit default swaps.  Big world events, whether political, military, economic, or whatever, don't take up most people's daily thoughts.  This is true even for people who do follow the news.  I pay very close attention to events, but I don't sit around wringing my hands or run around my favorite bar starting arguments about them with other patrons.

I got the feeling that more and more players separate their play in 'EVE the game' from their play in 'EVE world', and and can happily play a Amarr loyalist who's gameplay is supported by regular donations of isk from an alt enrolled in the TLF.

This strikes me as an example of what you might call power gaming? Maybe? it's the usual "there's no IC justification for my characters to be sharing isk, but they're doing it anyways" put into a more blatantly wtf context IC. That sentence made sense in my head. players are willing to overlook stuff not making sense IC as long as it is to their advantage, I suppose? The hyper-competitive nature of the game and obvious opportunities for metagaming that wouldn't ever happen in a normal RPG just make this too easy.

And, you know, the fact that the minnie militia is a great place to make isk, while the amarr militia requires a bit of masochism at the moment.

From an IC perspective, they can be explained as war profiteers.  Capsuleers aren't bound to the empires and they've found a convenient loophole in the quaint little 'last-generation' terms of the Empyrean War.  Many people go to war for reasons other than loyalty to kin and country.  See Blackwater/Xe.  If you're free from any meaningful reproach by the belligerents, why not work both sides?

[Esna Pitoojee]

Addendum to the relevant discussion: It's my understanding that CCP has, in fact, removed the items/LPs/ISKs Goons made with that exploit. Not sure where/how that info would be available IC, though.

I got the feeling that more and more players separate their play in 'EVE the game' from their play in 'EVE world', and and can happily play a Amarr loyalist who's gameplay is supported by regular donations of isk from an alt enrolled in the TLF.

This strikes me as an example of what you might call power gaming? Maybe? it's the usual "there's no IC justification for my characters to be sharing isk, but they're doing it anyways" put into a more blatantly wtf context IC. That sentence made sense in my head. players are willing to overlook stuff not making sense IC as long as it is to their advantage, I suppose? The hyper-competitive nature of the game and obvious opportunities for metagaming that wouldn't ever happen in a normal RPG just make this too easy.

And, you know, the fact that the minnie militia is a great place to make isk, while the amarr militia requires a bit of masochism at the moment.

From an IC perspective, they can be explained as war profiteers.  Capsuleers aren't bound to the empires and they've found a convenient loophole in the quaint little 'last-generation' terms of the Empyrean War.  Many people go to war for reasons other than loyalty to kin and country.  See Blackwater/Xe.  If you're free from any meaningful reproach by the belligerents, why not work both sides?

I think Merdaneth wasn't talking about the more privateer-ish FWers who could easily be explained as war profiteers, but actual Amarr Loyalist characters who receive regular infusions of cash from Minmatar alts.

[Victoria Stecker]

Addendum to the relevant discussion: It's my understanding that CCP has, in fact, removed the items/LPs/ISKs Goons made with that exploit. Not sure where/how that info would be available IC, though.

linky?

[Louella Dougans]

something that might be related, that I've been thinking about, was the reduction in player influence on some parts of the storyline.
There's arguments about pre-scripted things and so forth, but there's still some things that can be pointed at:

Gallente elections: players chose someone, in a very protracted thing, and Foiritain was elected. Next election, Nope, Roden, no player involvement.
Insorum thing: players obtained some insorum for the republic, Ushra'Khan was going to use it to save people. Nope, Maelatu Shakor the Elder Pawn appears, no player involvement.
Caldari Brothers of Freedom thing: Something about something in the State, then... Nope, Tibus Heth, out of nowhere.
Amarr Succession Championship: Players had a hand in selecting the next Emperor, who was leading the Empire to a new age of peace and reform. Nope, Jamyl. with no players being involved.

Faction warfare as a whole: Players cannot 'win' the war. It's a game mechanic, a feature that cannot now be removed.
Wormhole mysteries: Players cannot solve things, it's a game feature.
Sansha Incursions: Will go on and on, regardless of player actions.

So player influence on wider events is diminished.

And does this not then reflect upon player's own RP stories ? If people cannot affect the universe, why do they have to acknowledge the parts of the universe that they have no interest in ?

[Yoshito Sanders]

This is the main reason I don't involve myself much in the actual RP side of EVE any more. Because most EVE RP is pointless and has no connection with the actual game. I still read the chrons and new lore when it comes out and have my character stick by his RP druthers (for instance, Yoshito will almost never go pirate, even though I think I'd have a lot of fun doing it, because it wouldn't fit my RP), but I don't pop into channels or read IGS because it really has no point for me. I still get pulled into some in-game RP on occasion, but it's rare, which is unfortunate because I like doing it when it actually has consequence.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Gallente elections: players chose someone, in a very protracted thing, and Foiritain was elected. Next election, Nope, Roden, no player involvement.
Insorum thing: players obtained some insorum for the republic, Ushra'Khan was going to use it to save people. Nope, Maelatu Shakor the Elder Pawn appears, no player involvement.
Caldari Brothers of Freedom thing: Something about something in the State, then... Nope, Tibus Heth, out of nowhere.
Amarr Succession Championship: Players had a hand in selecting the next Emperor, who was leading the Empire to a new age of peace and reform. Nope, Jamyl. with no players being involved.

Faction warfare as a whole: Players cannot 'win' the war. It's a game mechanic, a feature that cannot now be removed.
Wormhole mysteries: Players cannot solve things, it's a game feature.
Sansha Incursions: Will go on and on, regardless of player actions.

So player influence on wider events is diminished.

This accurately sums up my lack of interest in the wider world. At least in reality, I can cast a legal vote for a new president if I don't like this one. In EVE? I can only complain about Heth.

[Malcolm Khross]

What Louella and Katrina said basically sums it up for me.

I've only been back to EVE for about a month and I'm already starting to feel like I'm wasting my money. I contend with people left and right on the forums and in Summit IC about things that I have absolutely no control over in the game. Player involvement is even lower now than when I left, the quality of RP has dropped significantly (especially since the majority of what's talked about now is either the same stuff that's been debated to death or people actually complaining about debates and wanting to just "chat.")

It's sad to think that I dragged people into the Honor Guard and I have some really amazing corpies and I'm still thinking about letting my sub run out because I simply can't see myself staying long term for nothing.

[Ken]

What Louella and Katrina said basically sums it up for me.

I've only been back to EVE for about a month and I'm already starting to feel like I'm wasting my money. I contend with people left and right on the forums and in Summit IC about things that I have absolutely no control over in the game. Player involvement is even lower now than when I left, the quality of RP has dropped significantly (especially since the majority of what's talked about now is either the same stuff that's been debated to death or people actually complaining about debates and wanting to just "chat.")

It's sad to think that I dragged people into the Honor Guard and I have some really amazing corpies and I'm still thinking about letting my sub run out because I simply can't see myself staying long term for nothing.

That's it, time to wardec some people!

[Bastian Valoron]

The OP touched upon many subjects. I won't say anything about the general disinterest in lore and in-game reality but I agree that basically the goonswarm has become the backdrop of EVE.

My character basically follows what the goons are doing mainly through statistics and news. He's barely aware that a group bearing that name exists.

During the Gallente Ice Interdiction, we were on the belts offering logi and getting easy killmails. In-character, we treated it as a some kind of Massive Attack mission, in defence of the Gallente industry against pirates. There were many others who played completely different but very plausible reactions to the event. During the Burn Jita weekend, Bastian was supposed to give a speech inciting the Caldari people to a rebellion. In the Factional Warfare, in my character's eyes, there has been no farming or market manipulation - it all has happened because the generals have made wise or foolish decisions.

This may be gullibility but for role-playing I have found it to be less problematic than a complete awareness of the real state of affairs. How far one can push an IC discussion about game mechanics before it ceases to be IC? What would I think in reality if someone came to tell me that a group of businessmen has been manipulating the markets of my country? Also, out of character, there is a lot of fun to be had in speculation and debate, and I personally find stating the obvious as boring as watching paint dry.

So I guess what I'm trying to claim is that the recent galaxy-spanning events can be and have been accommodated in RP, and it's not at all impossible to view them from IC perspective.

I do understand the opposite view too - in light of recent failed game design decisions and implementations by CCP one can easily get the feeling that anything you do in-game has no meaning, and that your involvement in the gameplay is an act of benevolence by the null-sec power blocs. From this point of view, staying docked and immersing oneself in a socially constructed fantasy without any in-game counterpart seems like a direction where some players might want to go.