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Author Topic: Occupy Wallstreet  (Read 35777 times)

Lyn Farel

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #15 on: 06 Oct 2011, 01:46 »

Hey I like this comicstrip. Its quite good.

Longer (and disturbing) video of needless violence and police that are apparently either very poorly trained in handling crowds or with hair-triggers for violence. There's heaps of other videos out there on the violence going on against these protestors. A damn good question I keep hearing the protestors ask the police but doesn't get any answer to:

"Who are you protecting?".

If you're in that city, get the fuck down there and make your voice heard, even if it's just by being another one the authorities have to deal with. Don't let this... this... freakin' fascism happen unopposed. I know there's a lot of Americans here who are decent people and I can't believe you guys will allow your country to turn into... well, THAT.

Well I share the feeling but lets not get into broad generalizations.
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Myrhial Arkenath

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #16 on: 06 Oct 2011, 02:54 »

Despite not even living on the correct continent, I've been sharing this over Facebook, and I am pleased to see our media is -finally- starting to report on it after weeks of silence. Am curious how the US media is dealing with this now? Generally we see things here once they get covered there, am wondering if that is the case now too or not.
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Mizhara

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #17 on: 06 Oct 2011, 03:14 »

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Mizhara

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #18 on: 06 Oct 2011, 03:22 »

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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #19 on: 06 Oct 2011, 12:16 »

NPR is doing a decently good job of covering it now; the decentralized nature of the whole thing means they can't really interview leaders, of course, but the reporters like to stick around at those "human microphone" meetings they have to listen in. Mostly now they're talking about where the protests are going next - they've got their spotlight now, and the way things are rolling they aren't going to have to keep focusing on growing that spotlight. So, what now? What concrete, actual, specific items can they present as goals to be met or objectives to be changed?
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #20 on: 06 Oct 2011, 14:08 »

Journalist Luke Rudkowski attacked by police with a nightstick.
Might be considered 'strong' imagery.

That video makes me laugh.

When a crowd is angrily pressing at the police line, ignoring orders to get back, while shouting insults and sometimes attacking the police... things can go south VERY fast. It isn't the police's job to lay down on the ground or stand back when told to. It's the place of the protestors to do that. that people consistently ignore and fight back against the police... then get mad when they're arrested, thrown down to the pavement, or beat with a baton.... that amazes me.

The police are not there to follow your protest, even if they agree with it. They are here to keep the crowd under control so things like looting, vandalism, human stampedes or worse do not happen. They are there to enforce order. If you pressure them, scream at them, insult them, attack them, force them to gather together.. they get nervous and agitated like ANY OTHER HUMAN WOULD.

Whether or not the police are acting out of line, the tone and attitude of that crowd is NOT a friendly or stable one. It's sounding more like a riot. Just remember, when beating protestors back with batons doesn't work anymore to keep the officers safe, guns will be drawn and pointed. Targeting and pressuring the police is going to get someone killed, and I'm surprised and thankful it hasn't happened yet.

It disgusts me that police are so often the hated people, the uncool, the 'pigs'. Yet when something illegal happens to you, who do you turn to for help? Yeah. I thought so.

tl;dr

Stupid kids crowd police, police beat them back by force since shouting isn't working... kids deserved it.

Mizhara

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #21 on: 06 Oct 2011, 14:50 »

I don't entirely agree and I am one of the people who consistently tout the authority of... well, uniformed authority. These are unarmed and for the very most part harmless protestors who have managed to keep a fairly major protest and occupation entirely violence free for two weeks straight. You'll want to note that any violence performed there have been pretty much exclusive to the police forces and that there's a huge abundance of videos showing gleeful use of force by the police. "Oh yeah, my nightstick's going to get a workout tonight!" a burly one says before he starts hitting the ground with a grin, warming up for the beatings.

While I would agree that the police are just there to do their jobs and so on... I do find it somewhat suspicious that there had been no escalation of force for two whole weeks until a certain fellow with a decent sized wallet decided to 'donate' well over four million dollars to the NYPD. Surely just to be a humanitarian who saw an urgent need for the coffee makers to be replaced. Secondly, the police force the situation by pressuring these protestors after (again) two weeks of non-violent and peaceful protesting for no discernable reason. Doesn't strike me as all too sensible to me.

The fact that they lay about themselves with truncheons and pepper spray so readily, documented by reporters who have also been subject to police violence, against peaceful protestors is something I can't just nod and smile at. Yes, if the protestors are the aggressors, the police should have the means and option to unfuck the situation. If there is no documented aggression from the protestors this kind of escalation and pushing the crowd into a fury is completely unacceptable. Especially when there's also been documented events where the police have trapped protest marches in unlawful positions in order to get a reason to arrest them.

The police stood aside as the protestors marched, practically herding them onto the Brooklyn Bridge. What do the protestors find on the other side? A police barricade and the way back out was slammed shut. What did Fox News report? "Protestors blocking a main traffic route and the police restoring order by arresting over seven hundred protestors."

No Katrina... I would on any other day agree with you... but here there's something very ugly going on.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #22 on: 06 Oct 2011, 14:56 »

I didn't know about those events. I just saw the video, with the police being pushed back by a very angry crowd. Where did you learn about this donation? Is there a link or some such?

Mizhara

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #23 on: 06 Oct 2011, 14:59 »

I had about eighteen tabs open on the OWS subject while researching this stuff and then I accidentally'd my Firefox's "restore last session" option. I might find the stuff again if I try to retrace all my steps but this was fairly wild surfing across quite a few sites. I'll link it if I find it again.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #24 on: 06 Oct 2011, 15:17 »

Also it is quite common to have trouble makers implanted into peaceful protests to turn them into something more resembling riots.

Has happened pretty much every time there has been one of them G4865 whatever thingamabobs.
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Mizhara

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #25 on: 06 Oct 2011, 15:25 »

Well, there have been reports, sadly undocumented, of people leaving the protestor packs and only then revealed their badges. I can't really take that as certain though as there's no proof. It does sound somewhat plausible though, considering it's widespread use.
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Invelious

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #26 on: 06 Oct 2011, 16:37 »

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2011/10/06/occupy-wall-street-protest-thursday.html#previous

Pic 10


Shes to pretty to be arrested, what did she do to deserve this
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Ulphus

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #27 on: 06 Oct 2011, 20:08 »

Well, there have been reports, sadly undocumented, of people leaving the protestor packs and only then revealed their badges. I can't really take that as certain though as there's no proof. It does sound somewhat plausible though, considering it's widespread use.

I read an interview through BoingBoing yesterday with some protest organisers that claimed that some of the "protesters" leading the crowd over the bridge had been arresting people the day before...
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Z.Sinraali

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #28 on: 06 Oct 2011, 20:30 »

Those claims are made pretty much every time there's a protest that ends with bad things. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you'd think that in the era of the cameraphone, somebody would be able to provide more than hearsay.

That said, I too am broadly sympathetic to the grievances being aired by these people. A financial transactions tax and equalizing the tax treatment of capital gains would be highly beneficial to the government, economy, and citizens of the USA.
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orange

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet
« Reply #29 on: 06 Oct 2011, 21:33 »

Those claims are made pretty much every time there's a protest that ends with bad things. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you'd think that in the era of the cameraphone, somebody would be able to provide more than hearsay.

That said, I too am broadly sympathetic to the grievances being aired by these people. A financial transactions tax and equalizing the tax treatment of capital gains would be highly beneficial to the government, economy, and citizens of the USA.
Would you propose raising the tax on capital gains for those with a lower income or lowering the tax on those with a higher income in order to equalize treatment of capital gains?

I can see taxation of financial transactions putting a serious hindrance to investment in fresh IPOs of startup companies that have grown beyond "Main Street."  I can also see it reducing the number, scale, & frequency of transactions; in general making the market postured towards less risk-taking, possibly retarding overall economic growth.  I am not an expert on the financial system, but I can see a financial transactions tax not achieving the desired results as it slows the exchange of goods & commodities and thus revenue and capital gains.

In general, I favor as little government control on economies and markets as possible.  Fascist, Communist, & Dictatorial regimes control the people's economy, industry, and lives.  A government can choose to buy goods & services from its citizens and I think that has a better injection/impact on the economy than handing money out or attempting to control a complex system of relationships like an economy.

/rant - some of you will not like my position/

An example of that would be a government choosing to make its fleets of vehicles all-electric or its buildings all carbon-neutral.  It could buy these products/services off the economy and become an anchor tenant for new industries where the "Wall Street" investor is afraid to go.  The government does not need to invest in the company/technology/idea, merely purchase the product/service it produces to better serve its constituents and people.

I understand a significant number of people are out of work, but the temporary "Jobs Bill" are actually going to result in other jobs disappearing.

As an example, decreased funding for the Department of Defense (discretionary spending) has a ripple effect into the economy and jobs market.  1) The number of service members over the limits imposed by Congress are fired and join the unemployed.  2) Military acquisition programs are asked to cut spending and do so in various ways to include a) programs end or 2) a reduction in the number of government managers/employees/contractors for the program.  a) & b) both result in companies, big & small not having an income (a contract) and having to fire people in order to ensure the company continues to pay its bills (like medical packages and electricity) and make some kind of profit to return to its shareholders/owners (to include employees).   Depending on what program is cut, the entire business may have to close its doors and have a ripple effect through its local economy.

I used the DoD example because it is what I am familiar with, but lots of other discretionary agencies and programs will face the same challenges.   Another example is the James-Webb Space Telescope, which is facing cancellation for significant cost overruns.  The thing people forget is that while yes JWST will be put in orbit; the dollars are spent on Earth and go towards paying for highly educated engineers, scientist, and technicians to complete the project.

In trying to address voter concerns and show they are trying to do something, elected leaders, politicians, most of whom are lawyers, are messing with systems they have little to no understanding of and which may have differing viewpoints between experts.   Economies and large scale human behavior are not as easily understood as Newtonian physics and most politicians have trouble with fully grasping the implications of Newtonian physics.

/rant ended for now/

I will not go into a discussion of "Freedom vs Security" yet...
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