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[Laerise [PIE]]

Wondering if there are any truely amarr loyal and traditional conservatives out there, except for us PIE's tbh...

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2020.msg25678#msg25678]
First off, PIE Inc. is a liberal amarr corp in the traditional sense of the word.

Wat.

It is one thing to consider the theoretical whole of the spectrum and the reality of the current situation. As such PIE is a traditionally liberal corp, but, at the moment, certainly one of the most conservative amarr loyalist corps.

But to answer Lae's question which spawned the topic, yes, there are.  Raphael Saint is a conservative by pretty much every measure stated in the above posts, with the exception of disliking Tash-Murkon.  Even though they're Udorian in bloodline he views them as champions of moving up the social ladder, since they were originally wealthy commoners (which is also his ancestry).

He's also loyal to the Empire, a loyalty which spreads to the Empress as she is a Theo Council approved head of the state.

His seperation from PIE had nothing to do with ideological issues, as one may think now that he flies under the KotMC banner.  He still holds PIE in high regards, it's pilots as friends and allies, and he'd probably have gone back to PIE if not for the reason of his seperation.  In fact, his almost complete 180 view on policies and subjects with KotMC leadership as led to a few good RPs.

Sorry, but this just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to tell you how to RP, but please do explain to me how a traditionally xenophobic conservative amarrian can justify the actions of KOTMC to himself 

[Raphael Saint]

That's just it, Lae.  He doesn't justify their actions, and well, if I were to explain everything here as to why he's there and what he's up to, I might as well as not even RP anymore. 

[Lyn Farel]

Well then, may I ask which actions of KotMC are you speaking of ? Feed us examples and why you think it is wrong or not amarrish. We can still work to fix what can be wrong.

Before though, Lyn is exempted because she is indeed not very amarrish, nor ammatarish.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Well then, may I ask which actions of KotMC are you speaking of ? Feed us examples and why you think it is wrong or not amarrish. We can still work to fix what can be wrong.

Before though, Lyn is exempted because she is indeed not very amarrish, nor ammatarish.

I count amongst those actions not benefitting conservative amarrians to be: Piracy against random neutrals, fraternisation with heathens / the enemy, happily inviting sansha's to your events and, of course, . the sheltering of apostates such as Lyn Farel, who is happy to dismiss the scriptures.

Then again though, Lyn, I don't really see why I should bother at all to explain this to you, or anyone else, since this has been brought up constantly to your leadership. KOTMC has gone to great lengths to put themselves into the corner they stand in right now and I do not see that change at all in the future.

[Shalee Lianne]

KOTMC was created to be very liberal.

I appreciate the effort that PIE and various other Amarr traditionalist corps put into what they do, it is good for RP, good for them.

But KOTMC is not, nor has it ever been, nor shall it ever be (at least while I am there), a carbon copy of the other staunch traditionalist corps.  We are our own unique thing, a corporation that houses a variety of pilots with varying beliefs.

At our core, we are an active (meaning that we undock and shoot Minmatar) corporation that defends Amarrian interests via the militia.  This is who we are, this is what we do.  That this is still even an issue over a year after our creation baffles me.

So yes.  We will continue to have our open door policy for the Keep.  We will continue to allow other races to join our corp.  We will continue to convert the heathens to our cause and we will continue to allow our pilots to speak their minds because we hope that others will recognize that a pilot speaks for him/her self and not for the corporation at large.

~ Shalee

[Laerise [PIE]]

KOTMC was created to be very liberal.

I appreciate the effort that PIE and various other Amarr loyalist corps put into what they do, it is good for RP, good for them.

But KOTMC is not, nor has it ever been, nor shall it ever be (at least while I am there), a carbon copy of the other staunch loyalist corps.  We are our own unique thing, a corporation that houses a variety of pilots with varying beliefs.

At our core, we are an active (meaning that we undock and shoot Minmatar) corporation that defends Amarrian interests via the militia.  This is who we are, this is what we do.  That this is still even an issue over a year after our creation baffles me.

So yes.  We will continue to have our open door policy for the Keep.  We will continue to allow other races to join our corp.  We will continue to convert the heathens to our cause and we will continue to allow our pilots to speak their minds because we hope that others will recognize that a pilot speaks for him/her self and not for the corporation at large.

~ Shalee

There is a fine line between being "very liberal" as you call it and what others consider "no longer amarrian". It is up to everyone to decide how they view KOTMC themselves.

Also please tone down on the IC in here Shalee, it's really no place for politics. Implying that others do not, as you put it "undock and shoot Minmatar" by explicitly mentioning it is a.) wrong and b.) insulting, I would like to ask you to remove that statement from your post.

The fact though that you are aparently excluding yourself from "PIE and various other Amarr loyalist corps" does shed an interresting light on this.

Now, regarding your last paragraph, and this is something that plagues SF as well. If you dismiss the negatives of your pilots behaviour on the IGS as personal and not having anything to do with the corp, well, then I'm afraid that does not help your credibility as a corp very much.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Here is where we seem to be running into a problem, some of the outspoken members of the ‘old block’ of Amarr role players do not want new comers being outside of their comfort zone.  They wish for everything to remain in neat little rows, properly colored and numbered.  Many of the more outspoken of these new comers to the Amarr role playing scene become angry at what they perceive as a sudden wall of hostility.  Now we have conflict that not only does not drive good story growth, but creates direct hostility between players.

Reporting this to see if it clears with the mod's at all. If it does I will reply.

Read earlier in this thread, there is clear example of this.  What could have been growth opportunities instead being infested with hostility and passive-aggressive sniping.

As far as I am aware this thread has been exceedingly civil so far, if you feel someone is passively agressive please do quote the significant bits and don't make general statements.

It is, for the most part, pointless to try to define who is role playing properly.  Taking a “do it our way or GTFO” mindset makes the situation even worse.  I am not trying to turn this into a big, fat, lets get along speech.  I am just trying to say “save your hostility for in character interaction”.

It is not only pointless, but also against the rules on this forum.

[Raze Valadeus]

I never said I did, nor did Archie or Rodj, so please keep them out of the discussion. Your paranoia is absolutely unfounded and quite upsetting Shalee, I don't really know where this sudden outburst of hostility comes from.

Actually, Rodj did when he banned us from your channel and demanded that my character be punished because of something he said on the IGS forums, which Rodj took entirely out of context and then refused to listen to the explanation given for what was said.

I am not being hostile here, I'm simply explaining the situation. If what Raze said is considered "not Amarrian" by Rodj or anyone else in PIE, they are welcome to talk about it with him in character. But demanding that KotMC rope its pilots in and discipline them just because a member of PIE said they should is exactly saying, "You should do things this way or it's the wrong way." Period.

[Victoria Stecker]

Actually, Rodj did when he banned us from your channel and demanded that my character be punished because of something he said on the IGS forums, which Rodj took entirely out of context and then refused to listen to the explanation given for what was said.

See, but that's what we want from them IC, and that's exactly what we expect. The issue is when the 'ur doin it rong' goes from IC to OOC, as we've seen in the past. Saying "This is what Amarrians are supposed to be like, you're wrong" is perfect from the IC conservatives. Saying "This is was Amarrians are supposed to be like, you're wrong" is less appreciated when it comes from the players OOC.

Discussing what's 'amarrian' and what isn't is actually very valuable. Claiming that you're right really isn't, as it tends to shut down discussion, or at a minimum turn discussion into argument and then it all goes to hell.

Back on topic, I think conservatism defined as 'resistance or opposition to change, support of the status quo' makes a lot of sense, assuming that those people believe the status quo is good.

However, :it's a big cluster:, the Empire is comprised of billions if not trillions of people, several bloodlines, etc. While the conservatives might wish to define 'being amarrian' as 'being like us,' as it goes hand in hand with their belief that Amarrians are inherently superior, I don't think we can make any kind of claim to this being what defines all Amarrians.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Actually, Rodj did when he banned us from your channel and demanded that my character be punished because of something he said on the IGS forums, which Rodj took entirely out of context and then refused to listen to the explanation given for what was said.

Your argumentation is flawed. Either Rodj DOES constitute the one and only authority on deciding who is "amarrian" and who is not, in which case it is pretty much up to his judgement to decide, or it is not and there is no issue to begin with 

By the way, it was not Rodj who banned your corp from our public channel but Laerise, make of that what you want.

I am not being hostile here, I'm simply explaining the situation. If what Raze said is considered "not Amarrian" by Rodj or anyone else in PIE, they are welcome to talk about it with him in character. But demanding that KotMC rope its pilots in and discipline them just because a member of PIE said they should is exactly saying, "You should do things this way or it's the wrong way." Period.

It is not and I will not respond to flamebaiting of this kind anymore. If you do something in the game you have to be prepared to live with the consequences. "It's just RP" or "it's OOC" just doesn't really work as an excuse.

[Raze Valadeus]

Actually, Rodj did when he banned us from your channel and demanded that my character be punished because of something he said on the IGS forums, which Rodj took entirely out of context and then refused to listen to the explanation given for what was said.

Your argumentation is flawed. Either Rodj DOES constitute the one and only authority on deciding who is "amarrian" and who is not, in which case it is pretty much up to his judgement to decide, or it is not and there is no issue to begin with 

By the way, it was not Rodj who banned your corp from our public channel but Laerise, make of that what you want.

I am not being hostile here, I'm simply explaining the situation. If what Raze said is considered "not Amarrian" by Rodj or anyone else in PIE, they are welcome to talk about it with him in character. But demanding that KotMC rope its pilots in and discipline them just because a member of PIE said they should is exactly saying, "You should do things this way or it's the wrong way." Period.

It is not and I will not respond to flamebaiting of this kind anymore. If you do something in the game you have to be prepared to live with the consequences. "It's just RP" or "it's OOC" just doesn't really work as an excuse.

I wasn't flambaiting you, Laerise, I am sorry you seem to think I am.

I am, and always have been, prepared to face the consequences of Raze's actions in character. What leaves bitterness for me is when what should be handled in character is carried over to out-of-character, as it has been in this case.

[Raze Valadeus]

And what exactly makes Rodj's request OOC in this context - or, more precisely, why is the delivery method of a reaction to IC events relevant?

I don't believe his request was OOC, to be honest. I wasn't present for the request so I don't know all the details. My only interactions with Rodj have been in character, which was cool by me. I actually enjoy the little bit of conflict that goes on between Raze and some of the other Amarr (such as Sinjin Mokk or Rodj Blake).

I was only made aware of all of this as an after effect. At which point I was made aware that we were blocked from PIE's channels due to something Raze had said on the IGS forums. Through some conversations and forum posts, I was under the impression that the conflict had moved from strictly IC to OOC and that eventually resulted in this OOC discussion regarding the whole affair.

If the decision to block KotMC from PIE's channels was motivated for IC reasons, then I have absolutely zero problem with it. If Rodj/Laerise or whomever wants Raze to face punishment for what he said on IGS then I actually encourage that line of roleplay.

If I am simply misunderstanding the current context of this conflict and seeing out-of-character conflict where there isn't any, then all I can do is say that I apologize for my misconception.

As of yet, however, there has been absolutely zero attempt to discuss any of this with Raze IC aside from Rodj's one post on the IGS where he said Raze's stance was an odd one for a loyalist to take. Which Raze actually agreed with and then explained why he worded his statement the way he did.

That was the end of the discussion as far as in character goes for me. Everything else regarding this incident has been handled out-of-character from my perspective and that's where my confusion is coming from.

If PIE went to Aldrith and said "punish this guy for his insolence" and Aldrith responded with, "go sit on a stick and rotate," then that's all in character. But when discussion of this incident has transgressed onto these out-of-character forums, then the discussion is no longer in character, it's out-of-character.

Hence my confusion.

[Laerise [PIE]]

For the piracy and the link you provided, it is the first time I see it, and be sure I am going to ask to the leadership what this means.

From my experience with Eran thats standard operational procedure, let me spell it out plain "We're bored, there's a target, kill it".

Note that I do not care if sometimes someones slips, it can be interesting ICly, though if it were to be done repeatedly KotMC policy would be to expel him as far as I know. I don't know if PIE expel such cases at the first mistake, but I can assure you that KotMC does it at least on the next act of piracy.

See above, your words are empty.

Fraternisation with Heathens, heh, we are liberals. Liberals are not orthodox and even less conservatives. Be them Amarrian or not. And with the enemy ? I do not see any enemy, unless you are speaking about EM and this case is quite contentious. As much as their actions are borderline when they help the TLF to take down amarrian POS in Huola (what the fuck are those POSes doing here anyway ? Never had any answer), they mostly remain in the Republic and have always been more or less midularites (their leadership at least, and Elsebeth), though some of their members are more shakorites. In any case, it is not because they are YOUR enemy and mutual war targets that they also should be OURS. Though we still have them in red.

I was talking about U'K as well, who are the most anti-empire corp youc an get on the mini side afaik.

Well, inviting Sansha or other enemies in the Keep is an old issue with you. You still stuck with that ? I thought we explained quite plenly why it was not so weird and I think our justifications are more or less solid. If you are not pleased with them, fine, I am not asking PIE to follow KotMC policies. Please be of the same respect when it comes to us, even if you think we are doing it wrong. We don't, and we think to be in tune with the PF. 

It is not "my old issue" nor am I "still stuck with it". Your justification does not do away with the plain cold facts, no matter how you spin it It'd be refreshing to see you actually stick with it without feeling the need to be apologetic.

As I said for Lyn, she is not very amarrish. Though even if she is sometimes very borderline, something that I am totally aware of and what actually pleases me in that roleplay, again, I think she is in total concordance with the Scriptures, actually.

Not really, but who am I to dictate you how to RP, proof below.

Saying that she dismisses the Scriptures is a blatant lie, as she considers them to be a central point in her beliefs. I am starting to think that you are confusing IC and OOC borders. While I can totally understand and expect Laerise to think as such, you have no right to think that the appreciation of the situation of your character is the only one worth of consideration.

Irrefutable post of Lyn being an apostate can be found here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1468714&page=2#60

Especially regarding: "I "don't give a damn" to the Scriptures, as you say. I consider them as pure spiritual texts, and that is what they basically are. And, thank you, I actually read them and get a lot of meaning in them.

I do not believe either in any sort of higher being."

The later paragraph bolded by me.
Apostasy (play /əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), a defection or revolt, from ἀπό, apo, "away, apart", στάσις, stasis, "stand", "standing") is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy apostatises and is an apostate.[/quote]

To not believe in a higher being in a religion that focuses around one is thus apostasy.

PIE was not able to make its point ICly ? Fine, but please don't come to enforce it OOC-ly with dubious arguments.

As far as I am aware PIE is not trying to enfore anything OOC-ly. The constant struggle by you and Shalee to drag us onto an ooc level in this thread is slowly starting to annoy me, please try to refrain from it. I don't see a problem at pointing out ic actions and commenting on them from my pov.

Of course, we are liberal, not a carbon copy of PIE Inc. If you already consider yourself liberal, well, I am not the one that will tell you if it is right or wrong, even if I consider myself that to be wrong, so again, please do not state that we are doing it wrong by considering ourselves as liberal amarrian loyalists.

I nowhere said anyone had to be a "carbon copy of PIE Inc.", and I very much doubt groups like 1PG for example would agree that they are such a thing, please try to remain factual.

Also, I never said you were "doing it wrong", calm down.

While you are at it, go tell to other liberal scattered amarrian characters that are not in KotMC that they are not amarrian loyalists. Because this is basically what you are doing.

I'm not telling them that they are no amarr loyalists, if I do please provide me with a quotation so I can review my post - the same goes for me telling people "they are doing it wrong".

In the end I am asking you Laerise, what are you looking for, when besides that you state that you take pleasure of OOC driven RP conflicts ? What are you looking for ?

I do not take pleasure in conflict, I do take pleasure in discussing matters that are not yet clear to me.

For one your CEO says he/you would be likely to review his/your position in regards to still considering yourself "amarrian", this is something I am interrested in.
Other than that I'm simply trying to factually make the argument that KOTMC does, in my opinion, not have all too much in common with what one might think of as "amarrian" when you look to the basic tennets laid down by CCP in the backstory.
I keep getting confusing vibes from you, shalee and aldrith here, so I'm trying to really find out whats behind it all. Maybe I'm just missing something important, help me understand it Lyn.

[Lyn Farel]

For the piracy and the link you provided, it is the first time I see it, and be sure I am going to ask to the leadership what this means.

From my experience with Eran thats standard operational procedure, let me spell it out plain "We're bored, there's a target, kill it".

Ah, maybe, though it might take you more than just words to make me believe that. Every time I have flown with Eran I have had no problems of piracy. It happens quite regularily that I ask in a pretty alarmed way to him wtf he is going to do, from now I have always been relieved to hear his justifications. And believe me, I am one of the most intolerant person when it comes to piracy (I am an NRDS nazi).

Note that I do not care if sometimes someones slips, it can be interesting ICly, though if it were to be done repeatedly KotMC policy would be to expel him as far as I know. I don't know if PIE expel such cases at the first mistake, but I can assure you that KotMC does it at least on the next act of piracy.

See above, your words are empty.[/quote]

See above, they are only empty if you bring me proofs of that (I will need more than one mere killmail, that I am already investigating, especially if you tell me that is always the case with Eran, because "always" means a lot of situations).

Fraternisation with Heathens, heh, we are liberals. Liberals are not orthodox and even less conservatives. Be them Amarrian or not. And with the enemy ? I do not see any enemy, unless you are speaking about EM and this case is quite contentious. As much as their actions are borderline when they help the TLF to take down amarrian POS in Huola (what the fuck are those POSes doing here anyway ? Never had any answer), they mostly remain in the Republic and have always been more or less midularites (their leadership at least, and Elsebeth), though some of their members are more shakorites. In any case, it is not because they are YOUR enemy and mutual war targets that they also should be OURS. Though we still have them in red.

I was talking about U'K as well, who are the most anti-empire corp youc an get on the mini side afaik.[/quote]

Well, like EM, we have them in red and are fighting them when we (rarely) see them. What is the issue ? That we allow them to come in the public hall of the Keep ? Always the same old issue, again. Our justification are solid to our eyes when it comes to that, especially when we are talking about private capsuleers.

Well, inviting Sansha or other enemies in the Keep is an old issue with you. You still stuck with that ? I thought we explained quite plenly why it was not so weird and I think our justifications are more or less solid. If you are not pleased with them, fine, I am not asking PIE to follow KotMC policies. Please be of the same respect when it comes to us, even if you think we are doing it wrong. We don't, and we think to be in tune with the PF. 

It is not "my old issue" nor am I "still stuck with it". Your justification does not do away with the plain cold facts, no matter how you spin it It'd be refreshing to see you actually stick with it without feeling the need to be apologetic.[/quote]

May I ask what are the "plain cold facts" ? I have to admit that I am confused.

As I said for Lyn, she is not very amarrish. Though even if she is sometimes very borderline, something that I am totally aware of and what actually pleases me in that roleplay, again, I think she is in total concordance with the Scriptures, actually.

Not really, but who am I to dictate you how to RP, proof below.

Irrefutable post of Lyn being an apostate can be found here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1468714&page=2#60

Well, I do not understand how so. It is easy to pick something out of its context. Let me explain it : "I don't give a damn" about Scriptures refers to Alicia post quoted above, where she states "Fact is, that most of you Amarrians give a damn to your own scriptures." And to what Lyn answers that she does not, because she does not give a damn about them the way Alicia understands it. I find it pretty obvious, but it might be normal because I am the author of the post, and it might also sound weird for another eye.

"And, thank you, I actually read them and get a lot of meaning in them." is also a sentence to take into consideration in the whole context, where she actually states that she gives a damn about them, just not the way Alicia described it.

In any case, I perfectly understand that someone gets baffled ICly about that because it is highly unorthodox, but OOCly... ? We have crossed an IC/OOC barrier i am not sure to like here.

I do not believe either in any sort of higher being."

The later paragraph bolded by me.
Apostasy (play /əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), a defection or revolt, from ἀπό, apo, "away, apart", στάσις, stasis, "stand", "standing") is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy apostatises and is an apostate.

To not believe in a higher being in a religion that focuses around one is thus apostasy.

Wrong. Do not confuse IC and OOC. I can perfectly understand that kind of remark from an IC point of view, but OOCly it is another story. Or then, tell me where in the Scriptures it is written that God is a higher being. Being bolded for emphasize.

And I do not even know why we are debating of things that should be done IC-ly. This is just absurd.

PIE was not able to make its point ICly ? Fine, but please don't come to enforce it OOC-ly with dubious arguments.

As far as I am aware PIE is not trying to enfore anything OOC-ly. The constant struggle by you and Shalee to drag us onto an ooc level in this thread is slowly starting to annoy me, please try to refrain from it. I don't see a problem at pointing out ic actions and commenting on them from my pov.

This forum is not IC. And at the risk to sound childish, you started that, as usual, by stating that KotMC is no amarr loyalist, then stating that my character is an apostate, and mixing OOC with IC on levels I was not even able to concieve before.

Of course, we are liberal, not a carbon copy of PIE Inc. If you already consider yourself liberal, well, I am not the one that will tell you if it is right or wrong, even if I consider myself that to be wrong, so again, please do not state that we are doing it wrong by considering ourselves as liberal amarrian loyalists.

I nowhere said anyone had to be a "carbon copy of PIE Inc.", and I very much doubt groups like 1PG for example would agree that they are such a thing, please try to remain factual.

Also, I never said you were "doing it wrong", calm down.

I can assure you I am calm. What makes you think otherwise ? =)

I could also ask you to stop being so condescending as usual, but I doubt that would be beneficitable for the thread, though it annoys me.

While you are at it, go tell to other liberal scattered amarrian characters that are not in KotMC that they are not amarrian loyalists. Because this is basically what you are doing.

I'm not telling them that they are no amarr loyalists, if I do please provide me with a quotation so I can review my post - the same goes for me telling people "they are doing it wrong".

In the end I am asking you Laerise, what are you looking for, when besides that you state that you take pleasure of OOC driven RP conflicts ? What are you looking for ?

I do not take pleasure in conflict, I do take pleasure in discussing matters that are not yet clear to me.

For one your CEO says he/you would be likely to review his/your position in regards to still considering yourself "amarrian", this is something I am interrested in.
Other than that I'm simply trying to factually make the argument that KOTMC does, in my opinion, not have all too much in common with what one might think of as "amarrian" when you look to the basic tennets laid down by CCP in the backstory.
I keep getting confusing vibes from you, shalee and aldrith here, so I'm trying to really find out whats behind it all. Maybe I'm just missing something important, help me understand it Lyn.
[/quote]

Well, the one being confused in my eyes is only you when it comes to subjects like RP enemies in the Hall of the Keep, and such things.

Now that said, we have indeed started a thread to review KotMC tennets to be sure everything is all right and well defined and also to see if people are willing to backpedal to a more conservative approach or continue on our liberal way, with the same mindset, but more clearly.

[lallara zhuul]

The word conservative would insinuate a regressive or static view on development.

Hence conservatives would be for slavery and for militant reclaiming.

Hard-line regressives would be for re-instating the council of apostles and disbanding the Privy council and Theology council.

The problem is that nowadays the Empire does not follow its own rules, Scriptures are just a sidenote that you give lip service when you feel like it, so is the religion.

From which one of the greatest problems with the Empire (as it is portrayed at the moment) arises.

There is no bottom line, there is no lowest common denominator, there is nothing that keeps the Empire together, because it seems that the whole of the Empire is quite aware of the fact that there is no God and they act in such a way that there is no divine purpose behind them.

Everything is just empty rhetoric with no real Faith or sacrifice to back it up.

My view is mainly based on the fact that no-one in the Amarr canon has ever made any sacrifices for their Faith (the entertainer in Abraxases fanfic does not count) therefore no Amarrian roleplayer is encouraged to do the same, hence no Amarrian roleplayer does it, hence we have all these wishy washy OOC bleedout cardboard cutout Amarrians that huggle anybody because they want to be liked.

OOC bleedout is the bane of the Amarrian roleplay, and it is rampant.