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[hellgremlin]

Kurt Gödel

Can't wrap my head around what this guy is trying to say. Not yet anyway.

Uhh... actually, a summary would be good.

To greatly oversimplify to the point that Jev may stab me: in any fairly decent system, you can construct the equivalent of "this statement is false", which means that complete systems are inconsistent and consistent systems are incomplete.

Riiiiiiiiiiight!

*pretends to understand*

Now, can you put it in layman's terms for me? (and by "me" I mean anyone who hasn't taken philo classes?)

[Casiella]

The truth contains lies. Including the cake.

Did I just blow your mind? If so, report to your nearest SoCT kitz for more fascinating discussions on the search for truth.

[Kybernetes Moros]

Riiiiiiiiiiight!

*pretends to understand*

Now, can you put it in layman's terms for me? (and by "me" I mean anyone who hasn't taken philo classes?)

Two of Goedel's more prominent works are his incompleteness theorems; the formal statement of the first is something like "any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete; for any consistent, effectively generated theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there exists an arithmetic statement that is both true and not proveable in the theory". That boils down to "for any non-trivial formal system, there will be true statements that can't be proved in that system alone".

A nice example of this is in Cantor's diagonal argument, which he used to prove that there were varying cardinalities of infinity -- pretty much that there were multiple sizes of infinity. If you take this table, you can read along the diagonal and invert the number (0 becomes 1, 1 becomes 0) to generate an element that isn't listed within the table itself. Extend that table to infinity in both directions and you can prove that the real numbers are, unlike number systems like the integers, rational numbers and so on, uncountably infinite. That's another, largely unrelated topic in itself, though.

The second is sorta similar: "for any formal, effectively generated theory including basic arithmetic truths, the theory contains a statement of its own consistency iff it is inconsistent". Long story short, "if a system's own logic allows it to be proved to be consistent, then there is contained within that system a contradictory theorem".

[Casiella]

Seriously, if Horatius run something for these discussions IC, that would be a good start to his idea.

[Horatius Caul]

Again, there is a channel: "Int-Per-Mem"

I'm positive it could host crazy intellectual debates like these.

[Casiella]

I'll lay it out this way: Iurnan doesn't undock much. When he does, it's primarily just for travel, or rarely for moving items (hauling). Most of my gameplay consists of trading and talking to people (IC or OOC), where the RP motivation centers around gaining power and, in his mind, working in the shadowed entrances to the halls of power. (Note the difference between this statement and claiming he has power among the capsuleer class.)

He's not much of a philosopher, though occasionally he'd like to be. He certainly does not have extensive technological expertise (again in comparison with some other capsuleers). What he does have is drive, ambition, and the desire to become the financier lurking behind the actual figurehead leader. He's very much in the vein of Niccolo Machiavelli, Chanakya, and Ibn Khaldun.

So when I see discussions about RP concepts that lend themselves to that sort of character, whether SoCT or GHSC ( ) or something else entirely, my ears perk up. I have certain ROE restrictions due to my corporation, but that only adds to the intrigue and machinations.

[Jev North]

Seriously, if Horatius run something for these discussions IC, that would be a good start to his idea.

We might have to come up with some kind of mangling convention for RL philosophers/arguments' names, or we'll pribably go stone cold crazy with coordinating and trying to remember made-up ones. /o\

[Horatius Caul]

I'll lay it out this way: Iurnan doesn't undock much. When he does, it's primarily just for travel, or rarely for moving items (hauling). Most of my gameplay consists of trading and talking to people (IC or OOC), where the RP motivation centers around gaining power and, in his mind, working in the shadowed entrances to the halls of power. (Note the difference between this statement and claiming he has power among the capsuleer class.)

He's not much of a philosopher, though occasionally he'd like to be. He certainly does not have extensive technological expertise (again in comparison with some other capsuleers). What he does have is drive, ambition, and the desire to become the financier lurking behind the actual figurehead leader. He's very much in the vein of Niccolo Machiavelli, Chanakya, and Ibn Khaldun.

So when I see discussions about RP concepts that lend themselves to that sort of character, whether SoCT or GHSC ( ) or something else entirely, my ears perk up. I have certain ROE restrictions due to my corporation, but that only adds to the intrigue and machinations.

He would be most welcome to align himself with the project. You can't have too many Machiavellian financiers!

[hellgremlin]

I'll lay it out this way: Iurnan doesn't undock much. When he does, it's primarily just for travel, or rarely for moving items (hauling). Most of my gameplay consists of trading and talking to people (IC or OOC), where the RP motivation centers around gaining power and, in his mind, working in the shadowed entrances to the halls of power. (Note the difference between this statement and claiming he has power among the capsuleer class.)

He's not much of a philosopher, though occasionally he'd like to be. He certainly does not have extensive technological expertise (again in comparison with some other capsuleers). What he does have is drive, ambition, and the desire to become the financier lurking behind the actual figurehead leader. He's very much in the vein of Niccolo Machiavelli, Chanakya, and Ibn Khaldun.

So when I see discussions about RP concepts that lend themselves to that sort of character, whether SoCT or GHSC ( ) or something else entirely, my ears perk up. I have certain ROE restrictions due to my corporation, but that only adds to the intrigue and machinations.

He would be most welcome to align himself with the project. You can't have too many Machiavellian financiers!

Actually, any given entity can only tolerate one Macchiavelian financier. Once there's two, there's trouble

[Horatius Caul]

I'll lay it out this way: Iurnan doesn't undock much. When he does, it's primarily just for travel, or rarely for moving items (hauling). Most of my gameplay consists of trading and talking to people (IC or OOC), where the RP motivation centers around gaining power and, in his mind, working in the shadowed entrances to the halls of power. (Note the difference between this statement and claiming he has power among the capsuleer class.)

He's not much of a philosopher, though occasionally he'd like to be. He certainly does not have extensive technological expertise (again in comparison with some other capsuleers). What he does have is drive, ambition, and the desire to become the financier lurking behind the actual figurehead leader. He's very much in the vein of Niccolo Machiavelli, Chanakya, and Ibn Khaldun.

So when I see discussions about RP concepts that lend themselves to that sort of character, whether SoCT or GHSC ( ) or something else entirely, my ears perk up. I have certain ROE restrictions due to my corporation, but that only adds to the intrigue and machinations.

He would be most welcome to align himself with the project. You can't have too many Machiavellian financiers!

Actually, any given entity can only tolerate one Macchiavelian financier. Once there's two, there's trouble

And you can't have too much trouble 

[Casiella]

So rogue kitzes. Alternately, apprentices ("always two there are"). Or other competing interests - a shadow war, if you will.

[Horatius Caul]

Nah, the secretive investors are really meta-machiavellied, as it's all a big experiment to see how hard the SoCT can troll a couple of wealthy capsuleers while running away with their dosh.

[Casiella]

Wheels within wheels...

[hellgremlin]

Nah, the secretive investors are really meta-machiavellied, as it's all a big experiment to see how hard the SoCT can troll a couple of wealthy capsuleers while running away with their dosh.

Wealthy capsuleers quit Eve, mostly. Once you have everything, what else is there to have?

[Casiella]

Knowledge about Sleepers and entry into Jamyl's boudoir, apparently.