Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Horatius Caul]

What the hell is this about, Horty?
Well, I'm kinda sorta trying to start up a Society-aligned corp, and could use some ideas. I could also use some more collaborators, if anyone feels up to it. This is both a step to save my own brain-glitches for posterity, and to selfishly crowdsource the development of my own project  . If it turns out I'm a total fool for even attempting this... general SoCT brainstorm thread!  

So, purpose:

- Explore what a SoCT-aligned group of capsuleers could do.
- Figure out how such groups would interact with other RP groups and existing factions.
- General discussion of the SoCT as a faction and what sneaky gits they are.


Wall of text follows. DISCLAIMER: CONJECTURES GONNA CONJECT

The Society of Conscious Thought is one of the least detailed factions in the game at present. Beyond their one chronicle, a single mission arc and the Black Mountain series, we really have little of value to go on. (Okay, so that's a lot more than what some people have, but the SoCT has its own issue of not having any clear in-game objectives like "Kill all humans!")

Chronicle: Society of Conscious Thought
Corp Description: Society of Conscious Thought
Chronicle: Hyperconsciousness
Chronicle: The Truth Serum

Even so, the Society is perfectly structured for player involvement. The Kitz, project, and "agenda" compartmentalization within the SoCT means that be Society agents have a perfectly reasonable excuse for why the "parent" faction is uncommunicative, or why they haven't got access to fancy-pants SoCT gadgetry all the time. Add to this the inherent sneakiness and suspicious behaviour of Society agents and things that would normally be immersion-threatening question marks can instead become RP-enhancing guidelines.

The SoCT appears to be intensely driven in its search for Absolute Truth - and seems to have people eager to explore every strange winding detour that presents itself along the way. It appears to be rather callous and amoral when it comes to finding solutions to problems ("Sir... I think we need to hire a bunch of mass murderers and sadists for this job." "What are you waiting for? Some requisition forms? Just get out there and get it done, Jenkins!"), which of course comes natural to a great big number of capsuleers.

I'm aware that there have been a few small SoCT-aligned corps before, but they haven't left all that many notable marks behind. It might have something to do with what I'm beginning to notice myself: What the hell do they do?

The Society is, or has been (among other things):
1. A metaphysical/spiritual fellowship
2. A scientific organization
3. A secret political influence
4. An educational institution

Point 3 is a bit difficult to build a corp around. Sure, I suppose you could build a SoCT-aligned RP espionage/subterfuge group, but once you have your secret Society agents embedded in Goonswarm and what have you, what do you do? I doubt disbandment-for-money or corp theft aligns with the SoCT agendas. Manipulate the 0.0 landscape? Play a galaxy-wide game of colour the map, five-in-a-row or tic-tac-toe with sov mechanics? Doesn't sound very SoCT to me.

Point 2 can be done, at least as far as shuffling blueprints for invention goes, or harvesting W-space for goodies, but I really get the feeling that most of the stuff the SoCT develops is far far beyond anything we as players can grasp at. Amnesia tonics? Brain-scrambling euphoria devices? Not sure you get those by smashing datacores together in a POS lab. That's not saying it's pointless to do science and industry with a SoCT-aligned corp, but it might not be the single most relevant thing to put effort into.

Point 4 can also be done, but considering the level of quality that the descriptions of the SoCT infer when it comes to their education, there's a lot to live up to. For my own project, the In-Character RP reasoning is actually closer to the education angle than anything else, but that doesn't mean it has to be a new EVE Uni. Basically, my plan has been to RP the attempt to develop an alternative to the Society Kitz structure, to accommodate capsuleer students (who are a bit difficult to isolate or put communications limitations upon) - essentially a Kitzless network of students and/or researchers.

The spiritual thing of Point 1 can be a major part of the RP at any level, but am I wrong in feeling that a corp might need something more than that to get going? If it seems possible to create a functioning corp on the simple promise of "sneaky h+ hoodoo", let's do it! Let's go whore the forums, let's quietly observe battlegrounds and perform weird experiments on witless newbies!

So... eh. Yeah, you lot have brains (or equivalent electronics) - go storm some thought-beaches with em!  

[Lyn Farel]

-> What is cool with SoCT : you can do almost whatever you want because they deal with a lot of different stuff, as long as it respects the SoCT ideal and guidelines.

-> What is not cool : as you said, their goals are not very material and ingame oriented. You do not have a lot of possibilities gameplay wise to do something. So eventually you have plenty of tools and ideas but you can't implement them in game (sadface).


My own experience

I have been confronted to this issue since the beginning. I have run a SoCT affiliated corp in the past, and it was obvious that we would not have been able to survive long without coming along with something else like a leech would do. That way after the first corp finally collapsed (because SoCT corps are incredibly hard to motivate new candidates), I decided to continue doing the same thing : basically, the SoCT can be divided in 2 parts.

- The common Kitzes and the mysterious/cryptic central administration (Geminate - Roua) above we do not know much about. Hard to play, nothing very tangential ingame to make it concrete enough. At the end you are more or less playing a social restricted club where people discuss about society stuff.

- The external agents and ex students that are then released in the world of New Eden at key positions (usually). This is the way I choosed (because I did not really have any choice if I wanted to continue playing SoCT). I have played like a SCT leech for years now and it is now very natural in my RP to play as such everytime I am in a corporation. Much like my SoCT corp was doing the same in Aegis Militia (hey lol, we got the executorship for several months after all, and we learned a lot :p). You just come along with an entity with which you share certain values and help them to accomplish them because it suits the SoCT guidelines you have in mind (this has always been my case). You also have the opposite solution where you can join an hostile entity or someone with very few shared ethics to help them accomplish something or at the contrary, prevent them to do so or make them differing their goals from their initial ones to suit your owns. I have never done the second solution though. But sometimes it happens that the goals of my character are not totally in tune with the goals of the entity she is in, and she has to deal with that in many different ways.


Orientations / RP axis

In any way, the fun fact is that you still can develop your little projects aside, like I am doing with my imaginary little kitz. Considering that every kitz can do A LOT of different stuff, probably from studying botany and roses to hyperconsciousness, and that most of them are probably not even aware of what the others are doing (especially when its super sikrit stuff), you can come up with a lot of funny situations without even bothering to justify them too much. Want to play in nullsec ? Sure, you are conducting an experiment on nullsec mad capsuleers. Want to mine ? Sure, you are part of the SoCT production chain for some sikrit SoCT stuff (ok, not very exciting but well, it is hard to make mining exciting). Want to play in rogue drones regions ? Sure, you are playing with rogue drones AIs and core of behavior (and pissing Entity off seriously, which is priceless xD). Want to be a Sansha ? Sure, you are experimenting their implant technology. Etc. Of course it demands a bit more of justifications and developpement every time, but you get the idea.


The Good, the Bad and the Weird

There is also another interesting thing. Much like you said SoCT is amoral. Not imoral (something/someone that goes against ethics), but amoral (without taking ethics into consideration). That way you can have "good" or "kind" kitzes, "bad" kitzes, pragmatic kitzes, idealistic kitzes, political kitzes, etc. What matters is only what they can discover and achieve toward the Absolute Truth.

In a certain way it is mostly like the Spectres from Mass Effect (wtf he is comparing ME spectres to SoCT agents ? He mad ?). Yes, if you remember well they have an objective, and they have to accomplish it as they see fit, at their own convenience. Some might not care at all for colaterals, others will.


Atmosphere

Again, the good thing is that it is very flexible, depending on the type of kitz (educationnal ? intel agency ? scientific kitz ? the kitz of cooking ? :p). Though you can obviously extract from it general variables. It is cryptic, spy-ish, mysterious, secluded, isolated, filled with bookworms and people straight as an arrow, or at the contrary very neglected. I have always had a feeling of archaeology and a very old library smell when it comes to SoCT, but with a very cyberpunk background with a lot of weird artifacts.

I was about to add something else but I can't remember it. :/

[Amann Karris]

"Let us only hope the search never ends, that the Absolute Truth stays hidden forever. For if the search ends, we end.
Then we become nothing more than dust, specks of sand on the shore of universal lie.
And maybe, just maybe, this has already happened."
-Gorda Hoje

Hona is Three:  "No, dear heart. You've no interest in acknowledgment nor compliments. You brought me here to show me you were all right," I said. "And I think you are. I think you found the end."

1. - Explore what a SoCT-aligned group of capsuleers could do.
2. - Figure out how such groups would interact with other RP groups and existing factions.
3. - General discussion of the SoCT as a faction and what sneaky gits they are.

1.  There are already SoCT aligned capsuleers.  Are you proposing working towards bigger goals, beyond simply corp objectives?  Are you suggesting more rogue elements working towards goals beyond the scope of SoCT's normal operations?  Are you suggesting full rogue elements?  Or are you suggesting working towards the goals that SoCT are operating towards (as best as can be gleaned from the sparse information currently available)?
2.  In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.  Deception is easy when those in power turn a blind eye to your true motives.  Finally, the most convincing lie is the truth; all the better to gain precious insight.
3.  The search for "truth" is not dangerous in and of itself; however, the truth can be dangerous, and most often is.  How do you best protect others from this danger?  Is there a line that should not be crossed in protecting others?  When does this protection become a dangerous truth in and of itself?

The most horrendous truth?  People protecting people from truths people shouldn't know can drive certain people crazy.

[Horatius Caul]

1.  There are already SoCT aligned capsuleers.

I'm sure there are SoCT-aligned capsuleers. Those are the people I hope to engage, both to exchange ideas and to see if I can avoid stepping on toes and fanon, and to find people to collaborate with.

Are you proposing working towards bigger goals, beyond simply corp objectives?

Right now, I'd be happy just to have some corp objectives. Basically, I want to start a corp based on RP, but I also believe the corp needs to be able to have fun and get stuff done within the game. The SoCT can really justify doing anything in the game, but that's really like telling a starting EVE player they can do whatever they like to do - I want to start a SoCT RP group, and I want to have corp objectives that are interesting within the scope of that. It's difficult to recruit people without any sort of activity in mind, and it's difficult to decide on an activity without any people to confer with.

Thus I'm trying to see if there are people with ideas for what to do in such a corp, and if anyone is interested in pursuing any of those ideas.

Are you suggesting more rogue elements working towards goals beyond the scope of SoCT's normal operations?

Possibly, if people would be interested in such a thing. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a slow alignment shift within the group. Perhaps there is a growing feeling that the project is being ignored by the Society, or CCP releases something which invalidates the project's official connection to the SoCT - in which case it might be possible to go technically rogue, but still be loyal to the Society's ultimate goal.

Are you suggesting full rogue elements?

If that's what people are interested in, or if that's where the project drifts, I'm not at all opposed to it. If it seems the project would fit better as a rogue mirror image of the Society under the patronage of a pirate faction, I'm sure that could be fun.

Or are you suggesting working towards the goals that SoCT are operating towards (as best as can be gleaned from the sparse information currently available)?

That would be my personal starting point, yes.

[hellgremlin]

An amoral organization that churns out pilots who have no difficulty attaining positions of power, you say?

edit: I actually wonder what that Absolute Truth they're chasing might be. Anyone have ideas?

[Horatius Caul]

I wouldn't mind a prominent drone liaison, you scary individual.  

[Amann Karris]

An amoral organization that churns out pilots who have no difficulty attaining positions of power, you say?

edit: I actually wonder what that Absolute Truth they're chasing might be. Anyone have ideas?

I think Douglas Adams already covered it. 

However, if you take Anthropic Principle to it's logical conclusion, I think the Society of Conscious Thought is an apt description.

[Casiella]

Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Horatius Caul]

edit: I actually wonder what that Absolute Truth they're chasing might be. Anyone have ideas?

Well, the Society was founded to find the meaning of life. Along the way they may have expanded the search to include the universe and everything. Gorda Hoje, the philosophical ancestor of the Society spoke of a concept he called Absolute Truth, and the search for it, and posited that "when the search ends, we end" - celebrating the search in itself but warning against finding the answer. His student Ior Labron then apparently founded the SoCT to pursue the answer, but considering the number of deliberate detours they have taken along that path, it's possible they have take Hoje's lesson to heart and are avoiding the actual answer.

The Book of Emptiness appears to have come extremely close to the answer, by accident, and they went to great lengths to destroy it.

EDIT:

Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

No newsletters at present, but there is an in-game channel: "Int-Per-Mem"

[hellgremlin]

An amoral organization that churns out pilots who have no difficulty attaining positions of power, you say?

edit: I actually wonder what that Absolute Truth they're chasing might be. Anyone have ideas?

I think Douglas Adams already covered it. 

However, if you take Anthropic Principle to it's logical conclusion, I think the Society of Conscious Thought is an apt description.

In that conscious thought is the natural and final evolution of our species, or at least the evolutionary goal we're striving toward?

[hellgremlin]

It's an interesting train of thought, actually.

Imagine humanity in present day. What do we strive toward? To make our lives easier.

We create the science of medicine to combat the diseases that plague us. We create the science of war to fight our enemies, and defeat them. We strive for the highest possible quality of life, and thus, our life spans are extended.

Well, what if all those goals were met? What if we didn't have to fear disease anymore, due to our medicinal advancement? What if the last war was fought, and we decided as a total human race never to fight one again?

What if every problem of our modern world, was solved?

Would we find new problems to worry about? I think we would. I think that, as our knowledge of the universe grew... the things we DIDN'T know... would bother us more and more.

There's a theme here. If there's a problem, we want to know how to solve it. We always want to better ourselves, to improve our standard of living.

But what happens when every human desire we have is provided for? What happens when every question we've ever asked, is answered?

Will there be more questions to ask? What happens if we run out of questions? Things to wonder? Things to explore and understand?

Now, imagine a post-singularity humanity. One whose ability to answer questions becomes so advanced, that they're answered right after asking?

Imagine an universe with nothing left to discover. No more search, no more hunt, merely all the answers you ever needed.

Imagine knowing everything.

Imagine knowing everything as a species whose sole evolutionary goal was: "Know more."

Wouldn't you get depressed too?

"Know more... no more."

[Casiella]

Based on Gödel's work, I don't think you can actually get to that state.

Damn, this idea here is becoming more relevant to my interests. Maybe something that's not exactly a corp?

[Horatius Caul]

Based on Gödel's work, I don't think you can actually get to that state.

Damn, this idea here is becoming more relevant to my interests. Maybe something that's not exactly a corp?

One solution I've offered - mainly if the project ends up some sort of academy or such - is to have an administrative/evaluation board that may include people not in the corp proper. Thus super sekrit SoCT agents embedded in other groups don't have to abandon their operations to contribute.

Of course, alts could also be welcome.

[Jev North]

Based on Gödel's work, I don't think you can actually get to that state.

Yes, no, kind of. I've a little experience with formal logic. Gödel's main work was proving a few shortcomings of formal logic, most notably that any consistent logical system whose expressiveness is worth a damn cannot be both complete and consistent, and moreover that any logical system can express its own consistency only if it's inconsistent itself.

This sucks immensely if you're trying to build an axiomatized and self-proving theory of mathematics, the major project of logicians at the time. I'm not read well enough in epistemology to be definite about it, but the exact consequences of this result in that field aren't immediately clear to me.. human reason doesn't bluescreen when we come across a sentence like "this sentence is a lie"; we simply shrug, classify it as a paradox, and move on. I don't know what the exact relation between something being knowable and something being logically provable is; but I very much doubt anyone's come up with a definite answer.

Pure epistemology is just as treacherous. There's rather a lot of discussion on whether it's possible for things to be by their nature unknowable. The case for is that there's a good number of problems out there that we can't even begin to attack; the case against is that there's a fair few we thought to be intractable and have since solved. As you'd expect, the unknowable is a horrible beast to try and reason about.

[Jev North]

In case the previous rambling post wasn't clear enough an indication, all this is Relevant to my Interests™. I believe I'll subscribe to your newsletter, and see what this channel is all about..