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[Seriphyn]

Straight to it...in the New Eden Assembly...

1) Seriphyn expresses disappointment about the treatment of Caldari POWs in regards to Aicar's article on the IGS, and the "Caldari Prisoner-of-war" in-game item.

2) Seriphyn is told it is useless to discuss it, as there ain't a god-damned thing he can do about it.

3) Seriphyn still decides to encourage discussion amongst the NEA on the matter. He muses that perhaps the level of individual initative in the Federation military versus the Caldari causes such vindictive behaviour from Gallentean soldiers to occur. OOC, I took from the Gallente's "individualistic" nature in PF and made this presumption, talking about armour customization and the use of nicknames (That being a likely extrapolation).

4) Seriphyn's opinion experiences criticism, for "not knowing about military culture" (words to that effect), and he is told to talk about a day-in-the-life of his FNA days. He accidentally gives a routine as a Marine, at which his opponent states that Seriphyn "described very little of what is publicly available regarding cadet lifestyles in the FNA". Seriphyn corrects himself and explains his FNA routine

5) Seriphyn is then lectured on the purposes of drill and marching. He is, effectively, ad hominemed into "talking a load of shit", basically.

6) Seriphyn continues, regardless, to muse about cultural differences amongst New Eden, and how this transfers into the military. Though not mentioned, my RP references include the silent nature of the Caldari in The Burning Life and "The Ever-Turning Wheels".

Once he continues to talk about how the Gallente military may have more individual initiative than other militaries, thus causing the POW debacle, the conversation shifts to the OOC channel.

1) I am told that "individual initiative" has no place in any military. I attempt to dismiss the subject, without busting out PF.

2) I am told that my currently low officer rank and training level in the British Royal Navy is not something my opponent cares about, and that I know less than my opponent does. This is after a futile attempt to try and justify myself by stating my occupation when provided with Internet links regarding military discipline.

3) I am told that my opponent's brother is a US military captain, and, as such, my opponent knows more than me.

4) I protest my disagreement by satirizing the fact that my OOC character discredits what I talk about IC. A third party tongue-in-cheekly injects themselves into the conversation by saying they grew up on a USMC base.

5) My opponent asks the third party how much individual initiative there is in the USMC. While the third party answers that "it is highly encouraged", I did not bother to continue it.

6) At this point, I would have expressed that using the United States military as a way to paint ALL the militaries of the EVE fictional universe instead of using existing fiction is not a good idea, but the conversation just descends and stops at this point.

This is the problem with EVE RP, and is solved by picking and choosing who you decide to RP with, and avoiding those you shouldn't RP with. Even with the "IC segment", it was nothing more than a subtle OOC jibe at my character's IC credibility.

I suppose the issue goes back to the IC/OOC divide. Do people feel this is an issue? How should people deal when they encounter these problems in EVE RP? Avoidance and muting is one, but that doesn't solve the problem.

Yes, this is a bit of a rage, but EVE RP has some serious gaping issues like this. I find publically talking about it is better than just letting the issue hang about in-game, with people holding grudges and overall disliking each other, etc.

[Casiella]

Eh, I just try to find folks whose manner of looking at things seems reasonably compatible with mine. And to anyone else, I just smile and nod and move on.

Incidentally, one can have a very fulfilling and immersive experience in EVE without venturing into any specific channel. Particularly including OOC.

[Aria Jenneth]

I stay out of OOC discussion of my RP or anyone else's, for the most part. It tends to get backbite-y, which is an easy vortex to get sucked into, myself.

Chewing on people for "doing it wrong" in some way is such a human thing, y'know. Assume snarling drama is inevitable within any group of more than about five people, and you'll rarely be disappointed. This isn't an Eve thing; it's a "group dynamics" thing.

Best to just relax, do your reasoning carefully, and stay out of OOC wrangling. Let people think what they want; just play your character.

[Hamish Grayson]

Apologies, to Dex in advance - but he is an exception to the rule.

I can promise you that an o-3 in the us military has no fucking clue about military life and his family even less.   Most of his time in the military has been spent on a  campus and he thinks and behaves like a spoiled frat boy who watches too much MTV.


If his brother is an O-6 in the Navy, then his brother is a politician and not a Sailor.    He probably grew up rich, had OCS or the academy handed to him on a platter and has no clue about anything other than shaking hands and stabbing people in the back.   He never had to work a day in his life  and has no basis with which to understand the people working under him, their daily routines or their life styles.


I suppose, RPing Seri as high ranking Naval officer who i0 sout of touch with military culture is actually pretty accurate

[Mithfindel]

I do kind of agree with Seri. Haven't seen much military life myself (conscription, two relatives are/were career NCOs, old friend is an officer), but there's a huge amount of variation, possibly even within a brigade. For example, in my old unit the drivers' barracks and combat engineer barracks were side to side. Hell, the discipline and customs between the companies in the battalion I served in was slightly different.

[Benjamin Shepherd]

Seeing as this takes place in what I manage on a daily basis, I commend Seriphyn for continuing to discuss the matter. It's encouraged to debate and discuss any issue, even when someone else doesn't want to hear it. Of course, I don't mean spamming Demented Pilot musings, but you get my point.

OOC was unacceptable and inappropriate, and I'll make sure to have another set of eyes on the Assembly while I'm out. This isn't about the differences between militaries, it's about respectful debate.

[Saxon Hawke]

Apologies, to Dex in advance - but he is an exception to the rule.

I can promise you that an o-3 in the us military has no fucking clue about military life and his family even less.   Most of his time in the military has been spent on a  campus and he thinks and behaves like a spoiled frat boy who watches too much MTV.


If his brother is an O-6 in the Navy, then his brother is a politician and not a Sailor.    He probably grew up rich, had OCS or the academy handed to him on a platter and has no clue about anything other than shaking hands and stabbing people in the back.   He never had to work a day in his life  and has no basis with which to understand the people working under him, their daily routines or their life styles.


I suppose, RPing Seri as high ranking Naval officer who i0 sout of touch with military culture is actually pretty accurate

I think your generalizations do a disservice to officers in all branches of the military service. As an Army brat, former ROTC cadet and member of the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary, I've had the pleasure to know many servicemen and women of all ranks. It has been my experience that most of them, enlisted and officer alike, take their duties and responsibilities very seriously and that includes their observance of military culture.

As to the argument behind the OP, I can say from own training and experience that individual initiative is valued within the framework of the military. It's how unforeseen circumstances are overcome in the field. It's how new innovations are developed. That being said, there is also an emphasis on uniformity and consistency. It's in finding the proper balance between the two that a soldier, sailor, marine or airman becomes the best he or she can be.

[Casiella]

[mod]Please feel free to continue specific discussion of RL military cultural issues in the appropriate forum.[/mod]

[Saikoyu]

Seriphyn, getting back to your origional point, you know you could have pointed out that if there are no Gallente prisoners of war, that could point to the fact that the Caldari execute them all, or something, but I suppose that isn't really solving the problem.  The only way to solve the problem is for CCP to put the information out there, but good luck with that.

I wonder if anyone has ever suggested to CCP that since they are part of White Wolf now, maybe they should take their storyline people over there and have White Wolf write up some source books.  It is what they do.  There would still be space for our little habits and family traditions, that sort of thing, but big stuff like military, general knowledge, major cities/planets, etc would all be there.  And they could make money off it.  White Wolf could even make an entire game out of it, have EvE dominate the RPG shelves.  I'd buy it.

[Aria Jenneth]

I wonder if anyone has ever suggested to CCP that since they are part of White Wolf now, maybe they should take their storyline people over there and have White Wolf write up some source books.  It is what they do.  There would still be space for our little habits and family traditions, that sort of thing, but big stuff like military, general knowledge, major cities/planets, etc would all be there.  And they could make money off it.  White Wolf could even make an entire game out of it, have EvE dominate the RPG shelves.  I'd buy it.

Er ... actually, it's White Wolf that is part of CCP.

And I agree: I wish (oh, how I wish) that they'd do this. It was planned at some point, or so I heard at the time, but I gather the idea hasn't gone anywhere. White Wolf has done some rewriting of missions and the like, but ...

Eve the tabletop RPG is something I, too, would play. The characters wouldn't (couldn't) be capsuleers; they probably wouldn't even be Dust 514-style ground pounders. They'd be "baseline" humans, living in the shadow of cruel demigods. If space combat mechanics were even included, they'd have to be strictly the "conventional ship" sort.

Ah-- the possibilities! Hell, I'd give my teeth (well, at least one or two of them) to be able to help write it. I do so love worldbuilding....

But, a dream deferred. For now.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

A White Wolf EVE lorebook?

<shudders>

My experience of them from the old World of Darkness is that they used to tend towards the Russell T Davies school of plotting & world design. They decided something was shiny and must be included without a thought as to how well it fitted in with everything else. Possibly this is why they had to burn down the world and reboot. It is perhaps ironic that the MMO will likely be using the old WoD though.

[Julianus Soter]

As this thread is directly addressed to me, I feel compelled to respond to the best of my ability.

To clarify, my brother is a captain in the united states army, graduate of USMA west point '00, and served one tour in Iraq in 2003. I never intended this to be an ad hominem dispute regarding Seriphyn's qualifications as a military trainee. My knowledge about internal military affairs comes from my conversations with my brother about his experiences, his letters, and my independent research on military doctrine and training in military academies.

The question at hand here is a conflicting perception regarding the Federation Military. This then rapidly ascended to Seriphyn claiming he knew more than I about military affairs, when I brought it up out of character, and thus had authority to set the tone about the Federation military.

The core of the issue here is whether or not any military's doctrine can be founded on the principles of 'individual initiative'. That was the substantive debate. There were no ad hominems thrown around OOC as Seriphyn attempts to portray in the OP. I observed that he became extremely emotionally invested in the debate, and I continued to press the issue. That has resulted to this thread here.

Can a military be run by the idea that commissioned officers and NCO's can run around and do whatever they please so long as it's still 'for the good of the country' or 'gets the job done'? The point of contention was whether the Federation's Navy could have people that wanted to 'prove their mettle' and were illicitly torturing or harming POW's to gain additional information or simply to spite the Caldari because they hated them. Seriphyn claimed at the time that because the Federation promoted 'initiative' in the military structure, this also encouraged such acts outside of orders and protocol.

Soter's point that he made in the Assembly was that there was no such idea: indeed, initiative can in many cases lead to insubordination. Unity of effort must take precedence, above all else, if a military is to be effective. And this was then contested by Seriphyn. The issue became intractable. No further effort was made by Seriphyn to substantively discuss the core issue, and it has since become overblown by the claims of 'ad hominem' attacks.

Edit: It is also important to note that at this point, Seriphyn has blocked me from in-game contact due to this conversation, eliminating any future possibility of concluding the substantive debate or removing any doubt regarding my lack of desire to attack him personally.

[Silver Night]

[mod]Please carry out personal disputes privately. Please don't accuse other players of being 'what's wrong with Eve RP' even if you don't explicitly name them. Don't accuse others of ad hominem, or bring such issues from other venues here.[/mod]