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[Myrhial Arkenath]

Never had the issue myself, thankfully. Lallara is right however, it's all in how you handle it. And if you don't feel like handling it, well, there's always the block button. And if it really goes out of hand on an OOC level, you can file an harassment petition. As for IC, I only think you can call upon the higher forces when it is on the IGS.

[Jade Constantine]

As I recall I there was actually a poll here that collectively decided (71.4%) pro - that it was "fair game" to use the "intel" based on my ooc web address hosting as "ic" on the summit where it suited users of this forum to further their arguments and make "ic" attacks on my character.

I disagreed with this stance and said so.

(But do remember the thread "complaining" about this was actually posted by the person using this tactic seeking validation from the community here rather than me attempting to demonize it. I had already made my own position clear on chatsubo which was to have nothing whatsoever to do with the person involved in a consensual RP sense because I disagreed with his standards. That avenue is certainly open to the op here.)

But are people really now arguing that it can be right to use somebody's OOC web address data to construct an IC argument when convenient but mentioning IC propaganda comments from "IC/OOC" tagged blogs are off limits?

I simply can't see how that makes logical sense unless one takes a position of flexible standards depending on the target. (ie. its anti SF so anything goes.)

On the issue of "IC but OOC" journals it’s a discussion that has been had many times. The bottom line is that one roleplayer does not get the power to restrict how public IC information is used without the consent of others. There is no RP government here or Roleplaying GM that decides what is what in any absolute sense. Either you reach agreement with another player and decide a consensus or you agree to disagree. This forum was never marketed as a venue where people would get to stamp others with the "your RP is wrong!" tag.

In this particular case it was clear to me that the character in question was using an IC journal (tagged OOC) to make propaganda shots at SF including speculation of how we would lose the war with them due to the attack on our outpost in 0.0. The only possible way somebody could hope to have their character speaking publicly yet denying consequence or response in the matter is to try this "public IC but OOC" angle we've seen before in journals like this.

But really, how does this differ from Roleplayer A (for example) posting:

"My corp is planning to wardec your corp" (on CAOD - OOC venue) and then complaining of "cheating" when the victims take steps and respond first with counter propaganda on IGS and hiring mercs in game. Does Roleplayer A get to accuse the targets of "cheating" because they used intel from an ooc source to prepare for an ingame challenge?

Some here are quick to join a hue and cry but I wonder if it’s simple partisan condemnation on the identity of those involved rather than thoughtful analysis of the issue itself really.

I have also said many times before that if this kind of public "ic but ooc" stuff has no impact, influence, or reference to my character or organization then it’s pretty much guaranteed we'll make no use of it. But we reserve the right to respond to propaganda in any style if it is used against us.

(This is where the "Jade destroys any notion of IC creative writing in blogs" notion comes from. Because I will not offer a blanket protection to blog authors from the consequences of their writing, if they use their unilaterally declared ic/ooc divide position to fire out from behind I will fire back. And really the op in this instance does illustrate why I take that position.)

It was common knowledge in the 24th Crusade that Predator Elite had joined Providence Block to try and screw up SF by convincing the powers there to seize TAZ Norlonto to refocus our efforts on defence rather than grinding you guys down in Huola. You had other characters commenting on the material in your blog - and it was being used to spread the word that SF was somehow dead/finished/incapable of defending its holdings etc. I can name at least one other blog that referenced this whispering propaganda and it was used in local as "ic" by other people who have actually posted in this thread.

The fact is you were meddling in a war over a 25b isk asset that ultimately cost a 400 man alliance its existence and will likely trigger several revenge wars and alliance scourging that will deeply impact hundreds of players in the next few months.

Why you feel this would keep you free of a little propaganda blowback I don't know but it is not the way that eve online works and since there is no central RP community police or standards committee then I will advise you that seeking consensus with those you disagree with will work far better than seeking to harden divides and trigger witch hunts.

To others in this thread that simply felt it appropriate to make personal attacks against me I think you should stop.

The core issue is one of gaming ic/ooc divide as its always been. If a player wishes to unilaterally decide where the divide is drawn and is prepared to use that divide as a convenient chest-high wall from which to duck in and out of cover to snipe at will, then it is inevitable that people will fire back with mortars eventually. Are the people using "ic/ooc" as cover less to "blame" than the people bringing indirect fire explosives to a gunfight? There's probably a discussion there.

My conclusion though - if it really was intended purely for personal use and to have absolutely no impact on the wider IC environment then it would not be a public blog - it would be private or invite only. Making it publicly accessible means that the ideas there have a propaganda function for good or ill, and in this specific case the blog has quite definitely been used to attempt propaganda mileage against an in-game enemy the author is currently at war with.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

Argumentum ad populum, fallacy of arbitrary distinction (i.e. splitting hairs), false equivalence, two wrongs make a right, a few layers of cognitive dissonance and of course, asserting what other people's secret motivations were with shades of paranoia.

You're a never-ending parade of fallacious arguments.

Also, IC propaganda of your own squeezed in the middle of it.

P.S. you're unilaterally deciding things, too.

[Jade Constantine]

I don't think its fair comment to speak of fallacies while chopping somebody's argument into nonsensical segments to make an artificial point. Respond to whole points in context or not at all please.

[Seriphyn]

So, if in a supersecret blog post, I claim Seri's a Black Eagle, despite the fact there is absolutely no mechanical way to prove or disprove this, Seri's a Black Eagle?

Weee! No more debates over it!

Srsly guys, don't feed the trolls. Blocks there for a reason; I blocked Soter because the endless "This RP never happened" and continued disagreements got tiresome. I recommend the same here.

[Saede Riordan]

I'm gonna go out on a really really long limb here and actually agree with Jade.

Because he's right, if we're going to claim we can use his domain name thing as IC information, which we all agreed was fair to do, including me, then we really can't complain when he does this as well. Yes, its sort of a shitty thing to do, and I personally refrain from Nikita having access to something unless its reasonable for her to know IC. And we can go on and on about how the internet is Galnet and since its posted on the IGS like that its all considered IC but I find that to be splitting hairs, and petty.

so lets recap:

Using IC information OOC: definitely
Using OOC information IC: poor form, but in some cases, understandable. Should be kept to absolute minimum.
Using OOC information OOC: this is where it gets interesting. If you say, OOC, on your blog, that you are going to wardec me, I will respond, OOC, and take on a wartime footing, and my character will not be shocked when the dec drops. This is just basic Opsec stuff.

[Jade Constantine]

So, if in a supersecret blog post, I claim Seri's a Black Eagle, despite the fact there is absolutely no mechanical way to prove or disprove this, Seri's a Black Eagle?

If its supersecret why are people reading it?

If its a revelation that you feel will damage your character what is your motivation for posting it in a public place?

Could it be argued that you are actually attempting damage control by releasing an embarrassing "truth" in a way you can argue is "RP invalid" to protect yourself from valid challenges on the issue on the IGS.

Example.

JF do something embarrassingly heinous like blowing up a neutral freighter.
I know its going to come out. How do I minimize the damage to our PR?

Well, I could register an IC/OOC journal and make a blog post about how well we've cleaned up all the evidence and paid off the witnesses and completely removed incriminating data and then post a tag on my blog saying "absolutely OOC anybody repeating this information is a cad and a bounder and cheats at RP ... tm."

Then say somebody finds out quite legitimately about the killing (say by talking to the victim) and posts on IGS - "hai JF why are you killing neutral freighters isn't that against your ROE!"

I then rage to the RP forums and claim that the thread is anti RP cheating because it references material on an OOC blog that is expressly declared as OOC.

And so on.

This is called metagaming the ic/ooc divde and its far more poisonous than having different standards.

Maybe you are a "black eagle" and just don't want people to talk about it on the summit. Writing about your "secret" identity in a public but ooc/ic-ish blog is a pretty good way of spiking the guns of anyone seeking acceptance in parts of the "rp community" that believe blog-crime is worse than corp theft.

[Louella Dougans]

I'm gonna go out on a really really long limb here and actually agree with Jade.

Because he's right, if we're going to claim we can use his domain name thing as IC information, which we all agreed was fair to do, including me, then we really can't complain when he does this as well.

No. Everyone did not agree. Do not claim so.

[Saede Riordan]

So, if in a supersecret blog post, I claim Seri's a Black Eagle, despite the fact there is absolutely no mechanical way to prove or disprove this, Seri's a Black Eagle?

If its supersecret why are people reading it?

If its a revelation that you feel will damage your character what is your motivation for posting it in a public place?

Could it be argued that you are actually attempting damage control by releasing an embarrassing "truth" in a way you can argue is "RP invalid" to protect yourself from valid challenges on the issue on the IGS.

Example.

JF do something embarrassingly heinous like blowing up a neutral freighter.
I know its going to come out. How do I minimize the damage to our PR?

Well, I could register an IC/OOC journal and make a blog post about how well we've cleaned up all the evidence and paid off the witnesses and completely removed incriminating data and then post a tag on my blog saying "absolutely OOC anybody repeating this information is a cad and a bounder and cheats at RP ... tm."

Then say somebody finds out quite legitimately about the killing (say by talking to the victim) and posts on IGS - "hai JF why are you killing neutral freighters isn't that against your ROE!"

I then rage to the RP forums and claim that the thread is anti RP cheating because it references material on an OOC blog that is expressly declared as OOC.

And so on.

This is called metagaming the ic/ooc divde and its far more poisonous than having different standards.

Maybe you are a "black eagle" and just don't want people to talk about it on the summit. Writing about your "secret" identity in a public but ooc/ic-ish blog is a pretty good way of spiking the guns of anyone seeking acceptance in parts of the "rp community" that believe blog-crime is worse than corp theft.

see, in general, its a very messy issue. The best I can do with it is if I don't want people to know something IC, I don't make it public OOC. And while there is some stuff, that if I was to more firmly respect the IC/OOC divide, I would be upset about people knowing. So my best response is just to be reasonable. If someone claims something that'd been kept a secret IC, I might be disapointed in their metagaming, but I won't throw a fit, information gets out, its what happens.
And I try not to metagame in this manor, but it happens.
Basically, if you really want to keep something a secret IC, keep it a secret OOC. Its simply the best policy. You can't beat the community over the head every time they glance at your blog, there will always be someone willing to bend the OOC/IC line.

No. Everyone did not agree. Do not claim so.

okay fine, the majority.

[Vieve]

So, if in a supersecret blog post, I claim Seri's a Black Eagle, despite the fact there is absolutely no mechanical way to prove or disprove this, Seri's a Black Eagle?

I've never had a problem with Seri's being a Black Eagle.  Well.  OOCly, anyway.

ICly?  Yes, lots of problems.  Bunches.  Imagine if MI5 suddenly decided to start dressing their agents in Buzz Lightyear costumes?  That's the sort of cognitive dissonance that Seriphyn inspires in Celeste, and that's not even taking into account their last conversation.

[Jade Constantine]

see, in general, its a very messy issue. The best I can do with it is if I don't want people to know something IC, I don't make it public OOC.

Basically, if you really want to keep something a secret IC, keep it a secret OOC. Its simply the best policy. You can't beat the community over the head every time they glance at your blog, there will always be someone willing to bend the OOC/IC line.

This I agree with completely. And it’s actually fairer for the community to place the onus on what's publicly accessible or not on the individual releasing that information (through deciding to keep it private or go public) than it is to make every potential casual reader responsible to guaranteeing that person's opsec.

This does go back to the larp thing really. Whether we believe Eve is a tabletop or LARP game. If it’s a tabletop amongst a small group of players that like and trust each other you can have respect for ic/ooc divides and expect people to RP that they didn't know the guy sitting next to them is a necromancer/assassin working for the death god.

But in LARP? you have thousands of players doing their own thing and they don't have time, inclination or ability to jot down the notes about what they are not supposed to know. People's characters get killed in larp's because they they have necromantic assassin’s robes hidden under their loyalist tabards - simplest option is keep what you want to be secret - well secret. Don't impose on other player’s time and effort by forcing them to keep your secrets for you.

In LARP's (and in Eve) the sensible position can be "what you know you know, what you don't know you don't know." Injecting "ooc knowledge" into the public domain and expecting other people to obey the tag and forget what they now know is actually something I consider quite anti-social.

[Eran Mintor]

Honestly, I can't be bothered to read what long-winded excuses you have for being a hypocrite/meta-gamer, player who shall not be named thus more.

Nikita, my question is this:

"Using OOC information IC: poor form, but in some cases, understandable. Should be kept to absolute minimum. "

What boundaries do you draw that allow you to use OOC information IC?

[Bong-cha Jones]

But in LARP? you have thousands of players doing their own thing and they don't have time, inclination or ability to jot down the notes about what they are not supposed to know. People's characters get killed in larp's because they they have necromantic assassins robes hidden under their loyalist tabbards - simplest option is keep what you want to be secret - well secret. Don't impose on other players time and effort by forcing them to keep your secrets for you.

The flipside of this is that, unlike someone walking up to you at a LARP and telling you all their IC secrets OOC to hamstring you, nobody is forcing you to read a blog.  Seems like a person writing with the intent that people read it could reach a larger audience if people who can't help but act on what they read would just avoid reading it in the first place.

For what it's worth, I think it was vaguely amusing when your alt got caught out, but was inappropriate for an IC venue.  I think pretty much the same about this.

[Jade Constantine]

(removed will report instead)

[Jade Constantine]

The flipside of this is that, unlike someone walking up to you at a LARP and telling you all their IC secrets OOC to hamstring you, nobody is forcing you to read a blog.

Thats not entirely the point I am making. Simply by posting your IC secrets in a public "OOC" blog you are gaining "insurance" against anybody else discovering those secrets in other ways and challenging you on them. You can always go to an OOC forum and complain about the "evil metagaming cheats" because your IC/OOC blog post predates their IC challenge. Doesn't really matter if your enemies have read the blog or not - you can always claim they have and spike their RP in that way.