Backstage - OOC Forums
Archives => Katacombs => Topic started by: Shalee Lianne on 01 Nov 2010, 23:09
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I'm at odds on what to do when Jade Constantine has read a story on my blog and assumes his character can automatically know something from it.
I would be more likely to understand if say, it was an actual journal/recording of something and that it was hacked, even if that would be borderline meta-gaming.
But to read a story and then take something from that is just pure cheating.
It's just stories, and you can't take that information and act like it is a 'public memoir' when it is not.
The blog plainly is labeled, and has been since it's creation, as out-of-character information.
Would you do that to Verone? Would you prance around and pretend your character knows all of the things he's wrote about in his back history stories? No. Because your character wasn't there. Because they are stories. Not public memoirs. Just like my blog is an on going story. NOT a public memoir.
So please. Stop your cheating.
- Shalee
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FYI, the discussion has been had before and Jade's player has stated he views any material as fair game.
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There is a reason Jade occupies the position in the RP community that he has.
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Well. That is really pathetic.
I tend to stay away from the IGS anyhow, I just can't keep up with all that is posted, but someone pointed out where my character was mentioned in his post. Okay fine, Shalee responds, all in-character. I don't know Jade OOC, so it's just ic banter on my part. Fine and dandy.
But I'm not having this cheating, nupe. I will not stand for it just because Jade arbitrarily decides he can use stories at whim. No. It's wrong, it's cheating, and if he wants to go down that road I swear to God I'll spend the rest of my EVE days writing blogs about Jade, all untrue stuff, and claiming it is fact. If he wants to play the troll game, then I'll play on that level.
Don't push me.
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I have had a very similar problem.
Jade seems to think that if it's on the internet, its IC knowledge and he can do anything he wants. The problem is, nobody wants to RP with a meta-gamer. If you want to RP as a meta-gamer, RPers will do this :bash:
This is not an IC problem, but an OOC one. By doing such things, you are making a bad name for yourself as an RPer to the point nobody will consider you an RPer, but just a troll. Consider carefully what you want to be.
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Old issue. I've had an identical experience.
Jade is very convinced of his own "rightness" on this issue. I wouldn't bother trying to change his mind.
Walk away. Find someone else to interact with. He's not worth the time or trouble.
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Trying to fight fire with fire, or interact with someone who tries playing this way, is a waste of your time, Shalee. If Jade's pulling this sort of thing on IGS, don't respond to it, report the post as having OOC content. The GM team have already made their position clear on this issue - they don't agree with that tactic. However, responding to the post legitimizes it, and they won't do anything if you do.
What you should do for now is lock down your blog(s) instead - if you're using blogspot/blogger, go to your dashboard, click "settings", then go to the "permissions" tab and select "only people I choose" in the options for "Blog Readers".
You'll have to give access by hand to everyone who requests it (that you want to have it), but it should help solve the problem.
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I agree that information like this should not be used and I'd never consciously use such info myself. I expect the same is true for most here.
However I'll play devils advocate here and say it's not anybodies place to say its the wrong way to RP so bluntly. Worth a look at the FAQ to get a better idea of how to criticize somebody’s way of roleplaying constructively.
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?action=page;id=4
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I have not experienced this personally, but I would follow suit with the advice you are given here. Jade roleplays in a very unique way.
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Unique meaning what?
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I see some people sharpening the knives. Let's not.
If you want to attack Jade, go elsewhere. This crap is exactly why I (we?) left Chatsubo.
Jade considers all accessible character info as IC. That's fact. He states that he believes it is the most reasonable outlook to have, since doing otherwise puts you at a disadvantage against others who can't hold to a relatively blurry IC/OOC line. So if you don't want Jade (and, by extension, the rest of SF) using what you write, block them, or don't write stories, or don't write about your own characters.
Jade has a point - I've personally been on the receiving end of OOC to IC shenanigans (or at least it sure appeared that way). The other side has a point too: Jade's views pretty much pour weed killer on the frail flower of well-written player fiction.
But nothing is going to change by trolling on your blog, or arguing here. No one is going to change their views (at least, judging from the statements made here and elsewhere). You have solutions, pursue them.
Personally, since I don't trust Jade or Soter or many of my other IC enemies to keep hands off, I deleted every damning entry in my blog (read, all of them) and simply stopped writing eve fiction to any extent. It has, as one might expect, been a successful countermeasure. Arvo Katsuya, on the other hand, passwords posts that he feels are "sensitive", another - and perhaps more reasonable - approach.
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I strongly disagree on most of what you say Vik, yet I agree on a few things, namely :
"The other side has a point too: Jade's views pretty much pour weed killer on the frail flower of well-written player fiction. "
What you are saying is people should stop writing PF to keep others from abusing the OOC info they acquire from OOG resources?
No, I do not understand Jade's perspective at all. Please tell me, or Jade tell me, how this is acceptable, because right now it makes no sense.
And I understand this forums was meant to be different than chatsubo, but how is it going to be different? Because people won't bring up issues where there are some?
To me, Backstage was created to be a forums similar to Chatsubo, but also where the flames-fest didn't exist. This is not a flame-fest, but a discussion, and I don't see how Jade's RP is acceptable. This should be a forums for adults to discuss RP, not a forums that people ignore basic RP rules and tell others to forget about it.
Edit: After reading your edited post, I have a few things to say.
1) I'd like to point at my main point again : "What you are saying is people should stop writing PF to keep others from abusing the OOC info they acquire from OOG resources?"
That is crap. If people don't know how to RP, they need to be taught how it works. You said yourself you stopped posting PF because you're worried about others using that info against you IC - doesn't that bother you? Doesn't that seem WRONG?
2) My hope here is not to change Jade's mind, because his mind is set in stone - he is stubborn and will think no different. My hope is to change the minds of people like you. This kind of RP is not acceptable. You cannot justify this kind of RP, while being a victim of it yourself, unless you wish to see RP fall into the "lolrp" category that so many of us have run into.
3) IC and OOC boundaries need to be clear.
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[mod]this thread has potential to turn pear shaped fast. Please be careful[/mod]
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1) I'd like to point at my main point again : "What you are saying is people should stop writing PF to keep others from abusing the OOC info they acquire from OOG resources?"
That is crap. If people don't know how to RP, they need to be taught how it works. You said yourself you stopped posting PF because you're worried about others using that info against you IC - doesn't that bother you? Doesn't that seem WRONG?
No. It's a pure cost/benefit analysis: do I enjoy winning on IGS and in Eve more, or freedom to write what I want? The former. Others have other goals. It's not within my ability to force Jade to do as I will (that would require a real-life force or authority, most likely), nor is it worth the time and effort to estrange him in-game. Therefore, from a purely logical standpoint, my most effective remedy is to remove his access to sensitive information.
My hope here is not to change Jade's mind, because his mind is set in stone - he is stubborn and will think no different. My hope is to change the minds of people like you. This kind of RP is not acceptable. You cannot justify this kind of RP, while being a victim of it yourself, unless you wish to see RP fall into the "lolrp" category that so many of us have run into.
What you think of Jade as a person in real life has no place in this discussion.
That said, you are not the arbiter of what is or is not acceptable RP. What defines "acceptable RP" is the amount of people willing to embrace that style (and, to some extent, CCP). And you have not provided a reasonable connection between the use of OOC information in IC settings and the degeneration of RP - you have merely stated it as fact.
If it is harmful, it is harmful because it enforces a sense of "total war" in the community, and forces people into cliques and groups to protect themselves. That may or may not be damaging to RP on the whole: on one hand, people would communicate with others outside their group less, but on the other hand, when people do change allegiances, it would have much more impact.
IC and OOC boundaries need to be clear.
IC and OOC boundaries will always have some blurriness to them. Let me give you an example:
Suppose that you had a member of your corporation set up a "victory parade" for your corp, where you would all make a series of jumps through several systems in you most expensive ships. Now, after this has all been set up ICly, your member contacts you an hour before the flight, and says "hey, this is OOC, but I just wanted you to know that me and some buddies are ambushing you and are gonna kill you and all of your corpies. We anticipate great loot. Oh, and we know your clone isn't up to date, so anticipate losing some SP. Now, you can't tell anyone, or do anything about it, 'cause this is OOC, and the planning was IC! Kthnxbai."
Tell me, are you going to go to your podding and associated loss of wealth and SP with head held high in your belief in the IC/OOC divide? Uh-uh, didn't think so.
Ok, what if you read this in a blog? What if you read their plans in a story?
Jade is waging a propaganda war - almost everyone not a fractionite is ultimately an enemy of his character, and he will use any advantage to conduct his propaganda war as well as his spaceship wars. He's playing to win. And there is nothing wrong with that. It may offend you, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that.
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I dont understand why a moderator is warning us that this thread is going to go into the "deep-end". Are you really that afraid of a civilized discussion about how RP'ers should act? If this thread gets locked, this forums serves little purpose, because where else can RP'ers discuss RP without fear of being muted?
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IC and OOC boundaries will always have some blurriness to them. Let me give you an example:
Suppose that you had a member of your corporation set up a "victory parade" for your corp, where you would all make a series of jumps through several systems in you most expensive ships. Now, after this has all been set up ICly, your member contacts you an hour before the flight, and says "hey, this is OOC, but I just wanted you to know that me and some buddies are ambushing you and are gonna kill you and all of your corpies. We anticipate great loot. Oh, and we know your clone isn't up to date, so anticipate losing some SP. Now, you can't tell anyone, or do anything about it, 'cause this is OOC, and the planning was IC! Kthnxbai."
Tell me, are you going to go to your podding and associated loss of wealth and SP with head held high in your belief in the IC/OOC divide? Uh-uh, didn't think so.
Ok, what if you read this in a blog? What if you read their plans in a story?
Jade is waging a propaganda war - almost everyone not a fractionite is ultimately an enemy of his character, and he will use any advantage to conduct his propaganda war as well as his spaceship wars. He's playing to win. And there is nothing wrong with that. It may offend you, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that.
I'm going to focus on the last bit, because that seems most relevant as this discussion really is about IC and OOC divide. If someone tells you, as you stated, some intel that is "OOC only", it would not matter if you acted upon it and responded to it tactically.[/quote]
We need to define IC (In Character) and OOC (Out of character). Most players in EVE are OOC players, meaning they don't have a personality in the game, but a player outside of the game who really does whatever they want. If someone gave me "OOC Intel" like you stated, there is no reason I wouldn't act upon it as a gamer to divert a potential casualty. However, we are talking about Roleplay, which is not the same as being PVP. Yes, PVP and RP are often tied together, but 1) your example in no way reflects the way Jade is abusing OOC knowledge as it doesn't have anything to do with PVP and 2) When blogs are said to be OOC knowledge, you should not assume that you suddenly have access to you IC (In Character). If you want OOC knowledge about it, that's fine, because if the blog is public you already have OOC knowledge.
My problem is when people Roleplay (play IC - In Character) with OOC (out of character) knowledge. This really has nothing to do with PVP or PVP-centric intel. This is, as you said, being a "propaganda" tool and using all the dirty info you can pick up. If you want to post Shalee's blog on COAD, go ahead, as that is an OOC forums, but if you want to post it on the IGS (and IC forums), you are crossing the IC/OCC divide when it is not necessary.
Yes, Jade and may other EVE players play the game "to win", but I cannot accept them as RPers if they cross the IC/OCC divide to do so.
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Oh, hell, not this again.
I dont understand why a moderator is warning us that this thread is going to go into the "deep-end". Are you really that afraid of a civilized discussion about how RP'ers should act? If this thread gets locked, this forums serves little purpose, because where else can RP'ers discuss RP without fear of being muted?
I suspect this might be the first discussion of this kind that you've seen. Trust me, every single one of them I've seen has degenerated into a vicious flame war.
Seriously, look at your own reaction to all this -- and you're a pretty mellow guy.
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My suggestion is this Viv - as much as I want to blow a gasket over people agreeing with Jade's reaction I won't, simply because I want a DISCUSSION.
This forum is not meant for flame wars, so let's be grown-ups and not take it there. Really, this thread is about OOC and IC divide, not Shalee, not Jade, not any individual, but how RP should be done when you have this resource called "The Internets".
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If you are posting stories about upcoming in space opperations and hopeing the info is not going to be used, then you will be in for a surprise. This info is impossible to ignore when it comes to you attention OOC.
If its info about your charaters background being used as propaganda against you, well, all I can say is that it is impossible to "win in RP". I dont understand how people can say that thier motivation to win on IGS is greater than thier motivation to write fiction and in a sense expand thier RP.
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My issue is not "winning the IGS", or "winning RP", but pulling OOC information out of your ass to use it IC.
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My issue is not "winning the IGS", or "winning RP", but pulling OOC information out of your ass to use it IC.
But the only reason it is done is to win at RP. So you are essentially destroying a possible RP encounter to try and win it.
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Graan, I really don't understand what you are saying - please elaborate.
As food for thought, tell me if this is RP, or acceptable RPer action, while you're at it :
[ 2010.10.17 23:46:48 ] EVE System > Channel changed to YWS0-Z Local Channel
[ 2010.10.17 23:53:19 ] Jade Constantine > http://mintor.blogspot.com/2010/08/blank.html is this down to Shalee Lianne ?
[ 2010.10.17 23:53:34 ] Saul Dhampir > Eeeeeeemooo
[ 2010.10.17 23:54:06 ] Jade Constantine > I was trying to understand what you are saying there Eran - is it that you became a race traitor for the love of that woman?
[ 2010.10.17 23:54:21 ] Eran Mintor > (that bloog isnt IC knowledge)
[ 2010.10.17 23:54:33 ] Jade Constantine > it is to us
[ 2010.10.17 23:54:44 ] Eran Mintor > (good for you then lol)
[ 2010.10.17 23:55:09 ] Jade Constantine > so are you talking about Shalee Lianne ?
[ 2010.10.17 23:55:51 ] Eran Mintor > (the trolling is weak in this one)
[ 2010.10.17 23:56:05 ] Jade Constantine > whats with the brackets?
[ 2010.10.17 23:56:07 ] Saul Dhampir > this from one of teh 'fag feaction' crowd
[ 2010.10.17 23:56:16 ] Saul Dhampir > *fraction
[ 2010.10.17 23:56:24 ] Axen Vormar > ferocious autocannon gunners?
[ 2010.10.17 23:58:07 ] Jade Constantine > its not "trolling" anyway Eran, just one of the more interesting things I've seen you write
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I should highlight this part:
[ 2010.10.17 23:54:21 ] Eran Mintor > (that bloog isnt IC knowledge)
[ 2010.10.17 23:54:33 ] Jade Constantine > it is to us
Edit : just sayin, if someone was RPing with you and said, "X PERSON knows everything about you before you even met them due to your OOC blog!", would you say "okay, you win at RP.....fuck"
Or would you laugh in their face and call them a troll?
P.S. You already know what I'd do cuz I already did it.
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Given that my blog is published in the year 2010 on the planet earth, any Eve character who claims to know the contents is clearly insane ...
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Lol thank you for the beneficial post.
P.S. If it goes there, let it be known I wasn't the one who made this into a flame-fest, but the one who tried to have a discussion.
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My blog isn't published at all in the Eve world, in terms of it being accessible. On the other hand, it does exist in the world (of my thought bubble rp), so I guess somebody could read it. On the other other hand, they'd have to stage a raid to steal the souped-up datapad Simon keeps under his pillow on board his flagship on the off chance it'd contain something useful... which is funny enough that I'd probably let them explain how/why they did that in whatever thread they happened to drop that little bombshell in.
If they linked to it, I'd just report it as an OOC link and hope the mods dealt with it, since Simon's blog isn't actually hosted on an Eve version of the internet. If they just meta'd it, I'd have to decide if it was fun or not before I acted. In any event, I tend to vague things up a bit on my blog, just in case. It fits what Simon would do, if for different reasons.
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your member contacts you an hour before the flight, and says "hey, this is OOC, but I just wanted you to know that me and some buddies are ambushing you and are gonna kill you and all of your corpies. We anticipate great loot. Oh, and we know your clone isn't up to date, so anticipate losing some SP. Now, you can't tell anyone, or do anything about it, 'cause this is OOC, and the planning was IC! Kthnxbai."
Vik, you did tell me OOC you were going to pod me before doing it IC ...
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If Jade operates under the mantra of "if I can find it on the internet it's fair game," than I think this (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=995.0;viewResults (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=995.0;viewResults)) little outcry of his becomes quite the laugh.
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Well, so double standards seem to be the play of the day.
By the way, Giants won the World Series, GO GIANTS!
All this talk of "convictions" is simply counter to the interests of any kind of consenual roleplay here because I as a player simply do not recognize web address stuff as IC evidence...
I doubt this changes any minds, but am I wrong when I say if you find something on the internet that shouldn't be IC accessible (an OOC blog) and use it as IC knowledge, that's bad roleplay? Jade even seems to agree with me.
Edit : More fun stuff
I have changed the file names and locations of all the files involved and ensured that the usual IGS suspects are linking posters from World of Tanks - and will continue to change the graphics to be ridiculous ooc things because my web space belongs to me and you all have no right to consider it an IC existence unless I give you permission.
Am I not saying something very similar?
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All in all, you cannot change how someone else plays the game.
You cannot change their actions, you cannot change how they react.
You can only change your own actions and how you react.
If you feel that they are trolls, then treat them as trolls, don't feed them.
If you feel that they are not roleplayers, then stop any and all IC interaction with them.
If you feel like you could make them change, then go see someone about your co-dependency.
There is plenty of information related to this kind of clash on the way that you play EVE on EVE related forums.
You can find out easily enough how people have tried to deal with a situation like this, because it arises time and again, and how it has affected it in the long run.
Remember, only thing that you can do is change how you react to this situation.
Of course I do not deny the fact that this is an emotional issue, having the feeling that someone is pissing on something as arbitrary as common decency is bound to get your hackles up and get people involved, if not because of the issue, then because of the shared emotion linked to events like these is easy to relate to.
I think this is what the moderation was referring to when they warned that this thread might go pear shaped soon.
The thread has already started to smoke, it would take very little to turn it into a thread of flames and fury.
Chatlogs, naming of names, emotional language that people can relate to, reopening old arguments, all without the other view on this whole issue being represented.
It's not kosher.
Anyhoos, off to hunt for brekkies.
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Never had the issue myself, thankfully. Lallara is right however, it's all in how you handle it. And if you don't feel like handling it, well, there's always the block button. And if it really goes out of hand on an OOC level, you can file an harassment petition. As for IC, I only think you can call upon the higher forces when it is on the IGS.
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As I recall I there was actually a poll here that collectively decided (71.4%) pro - that it was "fair game" to use the "intel" based on my ooc web address hosting as "ic" on the summit where it suited users of this forum to further their arguments and make "ic" attacks on my character.
I disagreed with this stance and said so.
(But do remember the thread "complaining" about this was actually posted by the person using this tactic seeking validation from the community here rather than me attempting to demonize it. I had already made my own position clear on chatsubo which was to have nothing whatsoever to do with the person involved in a consensual RP sense because I disagreed with his standards. That avenue is certainly open to the op here.)
But are people really now arguing that it can be right to use somebody's OOC web address data to construct an IC argument when convenient but mentioning IC propaganda comments from "IC/OOC" tagged blogs are off limits?
I simply can't see how that makes logical sense unless one takes a position of flexible standards depending on the target. (ie. its anti SF so anything goes.)
On the issue of "IC but OOC" journals it’s a discussion that has been had many times. The bottom line is that one roleplayer does not get the power to restrict how public IC information is used without the consent of others. There is no RP government here or Roleplaying GM that decides what is what in any absolute sense. Either you reach agreement with another player and decide a consensus or you agree to disagree. This forum was never marketed as a venue where people would get to stamp others with the "your RP is wrong!" tag.
In this particular case it was clear to me that the character in question was using an IC journal (tagged OOC) to make propaganda shots at SF including speculation of how we would lose the war with them due to the attack on our outpost in 0.0. The only possible way somebody could hope to have their character speaking publicly yet denying consequence or response in the matter is to try this "public IC but OOC" angle we've seen before in journals like this.
But really, how does this differ from Roleplayer A (for example) posting:
"My corp is planning to wardec your corp" (on CAOD - OOC venue) and then complaining of "cheating" when the victims take steps and respond first with counter propaganda on IGS and hiring mercs in game. Does Roleplayer A get to accuse the targets of "cheating" because they used intel from an ooc source to prepare for an ingame challenge?
Some here are quick to join a hue and cry but I wonder if it’s simple partisan condemnation on the identity of those involved rather than thoughtful analysis of the issue itself really.
I have also said many times before that if this kind of public "ic but ooc" stuff has no impact, influence, or reference to my character or organization then it’s pretty much guaranteed we'll make no use of it. But we reserve the right to respond to propaganda in any style if it is used against us.
(This is where the "Jade destroys any notion of IC creative writing in blogs" notion comes from. Because I will not offer a blanket protection to blog authors from the consequences of their writing, if they use their unilaterally declared ic/ooc divide position to fire out from behind I will fire back. And really the op in this instance does illustrate why I take that position.)
It was common knowledge in the 24th Crusade that Predator Elite had joined Providence Block to try and screw up SF by convincing the powers there to seize TAZ Norlonto to refocus our efforts on defence rather than grinding you guys down in Huola. You had other characters commenting on the material in your blog - and it was being used to spread the word that SF was somehow dead/finished/incapable of defending its holdings etc. I can name at least one other blog that referenced this whispering propaganda and it was used in local as "ic" by other people who have actually posted in this thread.
The fact is you were meddling in a war over a 25b isk asset that ultimately cost a 400 man alliance its existence and will likely trigger several revenge wars and alliance scourging that will deeply impact hundreds of players in the next few months.
Why you feel this would keep you free of a little propaganda blowback I don't know but it is not the way that eve online works and since there is no central RP community police or standards committee then I will advise you that seeking consensus with those you disagree with will work far better than seeking to harden divides and trigger witch hunts.
To others in this thread that simply felt it appropriate to make personal attacks against me I think you should stop.
The core issue is one of gaming ic/ooc divide as its always been. If a player wishes to unilaterally decide where the divide is drawn and is prepared to use that divide as a convenient chest-high wall from which to duck in and out of cover to snipe at will, then it is inevitable that people will fire back with mortars eventually. Are the people using "ic/ooc" as cover less to "blame" than the people bringing indirect fire explosives to a gunfight? There's probably a discussion there.
My conclusion though - if it really was intended purely for personal use and to have absolutely no impact on the wider IC environment then it would not be a public blog - it would be private or invite only. Making it publicly accessible means that the ideas there have a propaganda function for good or ill, and in this specific case the blog has quite definitely been used to attempt propaganda mileage against an in-game enemy the author is currently at war with.
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Argumentum ad populum, fallacy of arbitrary distinction (i.e. splitting hairs), false equivalence, two wrongs make a right, a few layers of cognitive dissonance and of course, asserting what other people's secret motivations were with shades of paranoia.
You're a never-ending parade of fallacious arguments.
Also, IC propaganda of your own squeezed in the middle of it.
P.S. you're unilaterally deciding things, too.
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I don't think its fair comment to speak of fallacies while chopping somebody's argument into nonsensical segments to make an artificial point. Respond to whole points in context or not at all please.
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So, if in a supersecret blog post, I claim Seri's a Black Eagle, despite the fact there is absolutely no mechanical way to prove or disprove this, Seri's a Black Eagle?
Weee! No more debates over it!
Srsly guys, don't feed the trolls. Blocks there for a reason; I blocked Soter because the endless "This RP never happened" and continued disagreements got tiresome. I recommend the same here.
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I'm gonna go out on a really really long limb here and actually agree with Jade.
Because he's right, if we're going to claim we can use his domain name thing as IC information, which we all agreed was fair to do, including me, then we really can't complain when he does this as well. Yes, its sort of a shitty thing to do, and I personally refrain from Nikita having access to something unless its reasonable for her to know IC. And we can go on and on about how the internet is Galnet and since its posted on the IGS like that its all considered IC but I find that to be splitting hairs, and petty.
so lets recap:
Using IC information OOC: definitely
Using OOC information IC: poor form, but in some cases, understandable. Should be kept to absolute minimum.
Using OOC information OOC: this is where it gets interesting. If you say, OOC, on your blog, that you are going to wardec me, I will respond, OOC, and take on a wartime footing, and my character will not be shocked when the dec drops. This is just basic Opsec stuff.
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So, if in a supersecret blog post, I claim Seri's a Black Eagle, despite the fact there is absolutely no mechanical way to prove or disprove this, Seri's a Black Eagle?
If its supersecret why are people reading it?
If its a revelation that you feel will damage your character what is your motivation for posting it in a public place?
Could it be argued that you are actually attempting damage control by releasing an embarrassing "truth" in a way you can argue is "RP invalid" to protect yourself from valid challenges on the issue on the IGS.
Example.
JF do something embarrassingly heinous like blowing up a neutral freighter.
I know its going to come out. How do I minimize the damage to our PR?
Well, I could register an IC/OOC journal and make a blog post about how well we've cleaned up all the evidence and paid off the witnesses and completely removed incriminating data and then post a tag on my blog saying "absolutely OOC anybody repeating this information is a cad and a bounder and cheats at RP ... tm."
Then say somebody finds out quite legitimately about the killing (say by talking to the victim) and posts on IGS - "hai JF why are you killing neutral freighters isn't that against your ROE!"
I then rage to the RP forums and claim that the thread is anti RP cheating because it references material on an OOC blog that is expressly declared as OOC.
And so on.
This is called metagaming the ic/ooc divde and its far more poisonous than having different standards.
Maybe you are a "black eagle" and just don't want people to talk about it on the summit. Writing about your "secret" identity in a public but ooc/ic-ish blog is a pretty good way of spiking the guns of anyone seeking acceptance in parts of the "rp community" that believe blog-crime is worse than corp theft.
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I'm gonna go out on a really really long limb here and actually agree with Jade.
Because he's right, if we're going to claim we can use his domain name thing as IC information, which we all agreed was fair to do, including me, then we really can't complain when he does this as well.
No. Everyone did not agree. Do not claim so.
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So, if in a supersecret blog post, I claim Seri's a Black Eagle, despite the fact there is absolutely no mechanical way to prove or disprove this, Seri's a Black Eagle?
If its supersecret why are people reading it?
If its a revelation that you feel will damage your character what is your motivation for posting it in a public place?
Could it be argued that you are actually attempting damage control by releasing an embarrassing "truth" in a way you can argue is "RP invalid" to protect yourself from valid challenges on the issue on the IGS.
Example.
JF do something embarrassingly heinous like blowing up a neutral freighter.
I know its going to come out. How do I minimize the damage to our PR?
Well, I could register an IC/OOC journal and make a blog post about how well we've cleaned up all the evidence and paid off the witnesses and completely removed incriminating data and then post a tag on my blog saying "absolutely OOC anybody repeating this information is a cad and a bounder and cheats at RP ... tm."
Then say somebody finds out quite legitimately about the killing (say by talking to the victim) and posts on IGS - "hai JF why are you killing neutral freighters isn't that against your ROE!"
I then rage to the RP forums and claim that the thread is anti RP cheating because it references material on an OOC blog that is expressly declared as OOC.
And so on.
This is called metagaming the ic/ooc divde and its far more poisonous than having different standards.
Maybe you are a "black eagle" and just don't want people to talk about it on the summit. Writing about your "secret" identity in a public but ooc/ic-ish blog is a pretty good way of spiking the guns of anyone seeking acceptance in parts of the "rp community" that believe blog-crime is worse than corp theft.
see, in general, its a very messy issue. The best I can do with it is if I don't want people to know something IC, I don't make it public OOC. And while there is some stuff, that if I was to more firmly respect the IC/OOC divide, I would be upset about people knowing. So my best response is just to be reasonable. If someone claims something that'd been kept a secret IC, I might be disapointed in their metagaming, but I won't throw a fit, information gets out, its what happens.
And I try not to metagame in this manor, but it happens.
Basically, if you really want to keep something a secret IC, keep it a secret OOC. Its simply the best policy. You can't beat the community over the head every time they glance at your blog, there will always be someone willing to bend the OOC/IC line.
No. Everyone did not agree. Do not claim so.
okay fine, the majority.
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So, if in a supersecret blog post, I claim Seri's a Black Eagle, despite the fact there is absolutely no mechanical way to prove or disprove this, Seri's a Black Eagle?
I've never had a problem with Seri's being a Black Eagle. Well. OOCly, anyway.
ICly? Yes, lots of problems. Bunches. Imagine if MI5 suddenly decided to start dressing their agents in Buzz Lightyear costumes? That's the sort of cognitive dissonance that Seriphyn inspires in Celeste, and that's not even taking into account their last conversation.
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see, in general, its a very messy issue. The best I can do with it is if I don't want people to know something IC, I don't make it public OOC.
Basically, if you really want to keep something a secret IC, keep it a secret OOC. Its simply the best policy. You can't beat the community over the head every time they glance at your blog, there will always be someone willing to bend the OOC/IC line.
This I agree with completely. And it’s actually fairer for the community to place the onus on what's publicly accessible or not on the individual releasing that information (through deciding to keep it private or go public) than it is to make every potential casual reader responsible to guaranteeing that person's opsec.
This does go back to the larp thing really. Whether we believe Eve is a tabletop or LARP game. If it’s a tabletop amongst a small group of players that like and trust each other you can have respect for ic/ooc divides and expect people to RP that they didn't know the guy sitting next to them is a necromancer/assassin working for the death god.
But in LARP? you have thousands of players doing their own thing and they don't have time, inclination or ability to jot down the notes about what they are not supposed to know. People's characters get killed in larp's because they they have necromantic assassin’s robes hidden under their loyalist tabards - simplest option is keep what you want to be secret - well secret. Don't impose on other player’s time and effort by forcing them to keep your secrets for you.
In LARP's (and in Eve) the sensible position can be "what you know you know, what you don't know you don't know." Injecting "ooc knowledge" into the public domain and expecting other people to obey the tag and forget what they now know is actually something I consider quite anti-social.
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Honestly, I can't be bothered to read what long-winded excuses you have for being a hypocrite/meta-gamer, player who shall not be named thus more.
Nikita, my question is this:
"Using OOC information IC: poor form, but in some cases, understandable. Should be kept to absolute minimum. "
What boundaries do you draw that allow you to use OOC information IC?
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But in LARP? you have thousands of players doing their own thing and they don't have time, inclination or ability to jot down the notes about what they are not supposed to know. People's characters get killed in larp's because they they have necromantic assassins robes hidden under their loyalist tabbards - simplest option is keep what you want to be secret - well secret. Don't impose on other players time and effort by forcing them to keep your secrets for you.
The flipside of this is that, unlike someone walking up to you at a LARP and telling you all their IC secrets OOC to hamstring you, nobody is forcing you to read a blog. Seems like a person writing with the intent that people read it could reach a larger audience if people who can't help but act on what they read would just avoid reading it in the first place.
For what it's worth, I think it was vaguely amusing when your alt got caught out, but was inappropriate for an IC venue. I think pretty much the same about this.
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(removed will report instead)
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The flipside of this is that, unlike someone walking up to you at a LARP and telling you all their IC secrets OOC to hamstring you, nobody is forcing you to read a blog.
Thats not entirely the point I am making. Simply by posting your IC secrets in a public "OOC" blog you are gaining "insurance" against anybody else discovering those secrets in other ways and challenging you on them. You can always go to an OOC forum and complain about the "evil metagaming cheats" because your IC/OOC blog post predates their IC challenge. Doesn't really matter if your enemies have read the blog or not - you can always claim they have and spike their RP in that way.
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Honestly, I can't be bothered to read what long-winded excuses you have for being a hypocrite/meta-gamer, player who shall not be named thus more.
Nikita, my question is this:
"Using OOC information IC: poor form, but in some cases, understandable. Should be kept to absolute minimum. "
What boundaries do you draw that allow you to use OOC information IC?
Well thats easy. The boundaries are personal. I personally will not use what I read in a blog IC unless it affects me OOC. That said, I'm not everyone, everyone draws the line somewhere, and no one draws it in the same place. Therefore, better safe then sorry will always be the safest attitude to take.
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True 'nuff. I suppose the next step in my counter would be to point out that people could always lie their tiny faces off in order to spike rp.
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True 'nuff. I suppose the next step in my counter would be to point out that people could always lie their tiny faces off in order to spike rp.
You won't have any argument from me there. Eve RP community is no different from any other LARP or society gaming setting for this kind of thing. People want to "win RP" just like they want to "win" any other aspect of the game and the limits of what they will do to achieve this vary widely.
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Sigh. Alright, let me try to...
One second I need to take a deep breath...
It's been a late night - Giant's won the world series (fuck yeah) and I've been drinking all night.
I'm going to tell you how you are a (RP) hypocrite in the most polite way possible; I'd like to keep this thread open and civil.
Do not take what I say personal, but take a deep breath as I have and think about your RP. I think this discussion is heading in a good direction and I'd hate to see it turn into a flame-fest.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have read (I don't read everything you say, sorry if that offends you but I simply don't have the time nor care to do so), you took offense to people taking an OOG, OOC site as IC information and, as I said, correct me if I'm wrong (and please, do so in as few words as possible), but when you say that taking OOC sites, or rather sites that you do not have access to IC, and turn that into RP, that bothered you? If it did, and you take OOC knowledge, and as my logs showed, ignore the fact that OOC knowledge should be divided from IC knowledge WHEN IT COMES TO RP (I'm not at all talking about warfare/PVP knowledge/etc.), that makes for bad RP. There really is no arguement to that; but if you have one, I'm open to see it.
The idea that people shouldn't make blogs with the hope that people don't steal their material is, as the British would say, bollocks. Basically you are reinforcing that the RP community should be a very small one who does not really RP but "plays to win", no matter the costs to their character.
To me, RP is a collaboration. You cannot walk into someone's bar and say "I stabbed you, you're dead, now destroy your character/acct and never come back." You are not doing that, but to me it seems like you are "God-Moding", which is very similar.
Trying to be a good PR person is completely seperate from RP. PR exists in RP, and in OOC aspects. Many non RP alliances focus on the PR aspect of their alliance to gain members and such, as you do so yourself. However, the divide is when you try to create some kind of PR that would not be available to your character IC.
Here's an abstract. Don't take this as a matter of fact, but an example:
Let's say I'm a Minmatar in a RP Minnie corp. I find out through OOC means (someone private convo's me to tell me in a completely OOC manner, "Hey I just bought some slaves off the market in Rens.").
Would it be right of me to say "I just found out there's a Minmatar slave trader, heres my OOC info that he told me (not in secret, but in OOC)."
That's the big issue I see. If you want to be an RPer, and someone tells you something that would make your character IC frown, it is your responsibility as a player and an RPer not to turn that OOC knowledge into IC knowledge "out of the blue". If you choose to make that OOC knowledge IC, it is my belief you need the other player to agree to your conditions (for example having access to an OOC blog/website) before you claim you suddenly know every dirty little detail.
It does not seem fair to say, "Well if you're posting a blog, people can choose if they know it IC or not" as that will make people turn their RP completely private, and to me, that seems against what the RP community is about lately (acceptance, expansion, tolerance).
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[mod]Topic locked pending moderation.[/mod]
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[mod]Variously: Flame bait, flames, responding to reported posts, 'You're doing it wrong', insulting other players, etc.This is a debate that may be worth having (in a general case), but please read the FAQ and Rules before getting into it. If you have questions, please PM a mod.Please note: Moving this thread here doesn't mean every post broke the rules. There were a lot that did, though.[/mod]
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[mod]I also want to remind people - not because it took place in this thread, but because this is the sort of topic that tends to bring it out - that the moderators here have the discretion to act on flames and insults even when they are not direct. It doesn't have to be 'Your RP is shit' or 'You're an oozing sore on the eyeball of the cluster. And I mean that OOC.' to get moderated.If you are clever enough to try and obfuscate the flame bait or insult in your posting, chances are other people are clever enough to spot it.Just a general reminder.[/mod]