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That capsuleers frequently communicate by means of dataprojectors? (The Burning Life, p 30)

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Author Topic: CCP are biased against whoever is losing  (Read 10569 times)

Hamish Grayson

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #75 on: 15 Jan 2013, 17:04 »

I'm not saying that FW isn't for vets, just that I don't feel that an elite group like QCATS should boggart a militia just because they  can.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #76 on: 15 Jan 2013, 19:13 »

Shaalira

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #77 on: 15 Jan 2013, 21:52 »

I'm not saying that FW isn't for vets, just that I don't feel that an elite group like QCATS should boggart a militia just because they  can.

I had to look up 'boggart' on urban dictionary.

While the 'elite' tag is flattering, if questionable, this opinion does raise some questions.

1)  At what point is an EVE player under the obligation to leave an activity they enjoy just because they end up too good at it?
2)  Why should NullSov be the final destination of low-sec PvPers when it's a wholly different playstyle, including activities and obligations that many of the aforementioned pilots would find to be utter chores?
3)  Do you really think a small alliance of 120 members, including alts and inactives, really has such an overwhelming effect on militias numbering in the thousands, in a warzone of over a hundred star systems?
4)  When capital-capable, numerous, and organized nullsec groups such as Ev0ke and Nulli Secundus freely enter FW and engage in hostilities, why should long-established FW groups be expected to leave to make room for the 'guppies'?
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Andreus Ixiris

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #78 on: 16 Jan 2013, 00:53 »

At this point, I've got to be honest - even if CCP are biased towards Gallente, I don't actually care. There is almost no-one in the Caldari militia who isn't a roleplayer that I actually respect, because it seems to me that every non-roleplayer in STPRO I run into acts incredibly spiteful and offensive (apart from a few members of Liandri Covenant, who are actually respectful and reasonable).

Caldari held the entire warzone for more than six months when the system had no reward for recapturing systems and was massively tipped in favour of the current occupant of the system. Gallente held the entire warzone for less than a day and then almost immediately lost nine systems and elements of the STPRO are crying foul. Really?
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BloodBird

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #79 on: 16 Jan 2013, 01:23 »

Because, Andreus, it's considerably easier to be bitter, whining haters or at least act the part, than organizing your militia together into a cohesive force and pushing back. If the Cal-Mil as a whole had done that, WHEN they do that, the war-zone will be far more 'fair' and 'equal' and considerably more interesting for everyone involved. I was not there for the final push - matter of fact I've not 'been there' for the last 6 months at least - but from what I hear all the last systems were felled one-by-one while the people who lived there locally fought. They got no back-up from other areas, and left once their system was lost. Then the next system faced a similar fate, and so on, until all these independent groups were gone.

If the Caldari had unified like the Federation's forces had, this situation would be very different, but I honestly fear this won't happen now - The Villore Accords were made in response to losing the whole war-zone and they shaped up to get it back. The Caldari had no time to shape up before systems were re-taken, so I'm afraid they might go on as fractured and solitary as they do now, because there will be no 'need' to unify.
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Pieter Tuulinen

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #80 on: 16 Jan 2013, 03:56 »

If the Cal-Mil as a whole had done that, WHEN they do that, the war-zone will be far more 'fair' and 'equal' and considerably more interesting for everyone involved. I was not there for the final push - matter of fact I've not 'been there' for the last 6 months at least - but from what I hear all the last systems were felled one-by-one while the people who lived there locally fought. They got no back-up from other areas, and left once their system was lost. Then the next system faced a similar fate, and so on, until all these independent groups were gone.

If the Caldari had unified like the Federation's forces had, this situation would be very different, but I honestly fear this won't happen now - The Villore Accords were made in response to losing the whole war-zone and they shaped up to get it back. The Caldari had no time to shape up before systems were re-taken, so I'm afraid they might go on as fractured and solitary as they do now, because there will be no 'need' to unify.

Basically, this. I mean, I'm going to go ahead and point out that the baiting and smack in local from the Villore accords and others was a little obnoxious too, but the FDU is essentially organised and the STPRO is not.

We're very fortunate that we had Ev0ke and Liandri, otherwise we could have wound up locked out for quite awhile.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #81 on: 16 Jan 2013, 04:01 »

Outgunned and outnumbered militias (Amarr and Gallente) usually have a history of being more organized and cohesive than their counterparts. If they were not, they would have collapsed for long.
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Ava Starfire

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #82 on: 16 Jan 2013, 07:50 »

It isnt just the STPRO who cry foul.

When the changes came, the lion's share of the 24th whined on blogs, left in droves, had emorage meltdowns against Hans, and did their all to get me banned instead of actually fighting.

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Desiderya

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #83 on: 16 Jan 2013, 08:14 »

News flash:
You'll find scrotes everywhere. They are in STPRO, they are in the FDU.
News flash²:
You'll find people are more willing to lay the blame on someone else instead of buckling up. There've been imbalances throughout the past and there always was cause for whines, hate and bile on the forums. The side that has the upper hand is, surprisingly, less inclined to complain or buy into the complaints from the other side, because it's not imbalance, it's personal skill.

Personally, I'm just going to go all reasonable and will try to explode all the things, because Shaalira actually has a point: FW offers a unique enviroment to go and explode internet spaceships in.
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Tiberious Thessalonia

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #84 on: 16 Jan 2013, 08:26 »

I have heard that Ava blobs in solo wolfs, c/y?
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Do you see it now?  Something is different.  Something is never was in the first part!

orange

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #85 on: 16 Jan 2013, 09:17 »

Some in STPRO tried to organize once, in the beginning.  Didn't get very far before a major PvP corp said, "No and not only no, but if you continue to try and organize the STPRO's efforts we will wardec those who support your efforts."  Ah, old times.
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Gesakaarin

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #86 on: 16 Jan 2013, 09:25 »

First, I think you are wrong when you accuse the pre-Heth State of having tendencies towards totalitarianism. The impression I received from pre-Heth PF, and even some post-Heth material, was that the State, as a whole, didn't really bother with trying to implement total control of every citizen. Rather, the State simply made the rules which you had to abide by if you wanted to participate in society - if you desired, you could dissent all you wanted, but good luck getting a job if you made yourself more annoying to whatever Mega you served in than it considered you to be worth. This is why I don't think the Caldari even have a concept of a rights-based morality as the Gallente do - it's not whether you have the right to speak freely, you can say anything you want - the question is of the social and economic consequences of a statement or action.
There's no question that CCP has since moved the State towards totalitarianism. And the State was certainly always authoritarian. But originally, the State didn't seem to care if you grumbled in your beer with another employee about your nasty manager, as long as you worked hard and didn't make a fuss unnecessarily.

I would agree in general, however, the concepts of totalitarianism in the Caldari State I pointed out have little to do with the ideologies of the Soviets or the Nazis some might take issue with. Neither is it a "One Party" system. Rather, the totalitarian vein in the State I have always seen has always been more similar to the philosophy of Legalism. It has been stated the Megacorporations have essentially been powers unto themselves and are able to to dictate their own laws individually over their own employees and dictate the laws of the State themselves through the CEP. There does exist repression and oppression in the State, not only because there has not been a single shred of libertarianism or concepts of personal liberty outlined in the faction but also because:

1. The "Dissenters" background description reads the following: "The cold discipline of Caldari society does not appeal to everyone, nor is everyone happy with the stranglehold that corporate rulers have on everyday life. While not outright rebellious, dissenters nonetheless invest considerable time and effort in trying to change the system from within. The State keeps a close eye on these individuals. "

2. In "The Caldari" it depicts what might occur to what a Megacorporation might deem a "dissident" and it basically tells the tale of an almost Orwellian reprogramming of said dissident.

3. The Brothers of Freedom outlines what happens if you decide to protest against the authority of the State and its Megacorporations, you end up persecuted, hunted down and killed by the security forces of the State.

Those are a few examples of what might be described as totalitarian elements within the Caldari State that were provided prior to the rise of Tibus Heth. The Caldari State and its corporations through just those three examples clearly seeks to control its citizens both through the strictures of the law as can be seen in the clearance document text every new Caldari receives:

"The hypercapitalist corporate state of the Caldari is awash with these sorts of documents, however, and the tendency towards needless bureaucracy is simply a part of corporate life."

And they are more than willing and able to do so because the Caldari State is described as having:

"no central government to speak of - all territories within the State are owned and ruled by corporations. Duty and discipline are required traits in Caldari citizens, plus unquestioning loyalty to the corporation they live to serve."

Caldari corporations control almost every aspect of their citizens lives, expect and demand unquestioning loyalty to them, use corporate scrip to economically bind their employees to them, watch and monitor for any sign of dissent against their authority and in cases in which it occurs either deal with it by using the corporate 'Room 101' or just efficiently liquidate those involved. Sure, a citizen can grumble all they like in private, but if their company deems the content of their thoughts against their interests or their laws and it's discovered then the consequences and penalties can be harsh and there isn't an independent judiciary to appeal to.

There might be a fine line between authoritarianism and totalitarianism and the only real change currently is that the State itself as a whole by empowering Tibus Heth as its Executor has become just as totalitarian as its constituent Megacorporations. Because in the end, 'CEO' might as well translate to effective Dictator within their respective corporate domains whose only real check on their power were the shareholders of their respective companies -- a situation which seems to have lead directly to riot and revolt with the BoF and Provists respectively, and which only Ishukone appears to have escaped due to their policy of employee share divestments.

I do not view CCP's release of PF for the Caldari State as a sudden paradigm shift towards it being a totalitarian system, but rather a confirmation that the State has always been totalitarian and seeking to describe and define the systems of control within the State and the methods into which such a system is supported by its citizenry on the basis of Caldari societal norms, culture, history and traditions that justify the creation of their own collectivist, meritocratic and capitalist nation. Difficulties will certainly arise however if moral judgement is passed on the State by the strictures of modern democratic standards and not by attempting to view the State through the lens of Caldari philosophy and political thought which CCP seeks to provide and whose authors have clearly rejected the thinking of both classical and modern liberalism.

But I do think that the association with Nazism is more than coincidental or natural. TonyG, whether with the company or not, whether the author of most PF or not, did write the defining book on the current leadership and society of the State. It's very obvious that Heth is a Hitler clone, from the fomenting fake unrest to provide reasons for invasion to the persecution of ethnic immigrants. This from the same nation that, earlier, used its own navy to violently destroy a racist attack on Intaki immigrants. It wasn't that Heth fit previous PF, Heth didn't fit a lot of previous PF, but that PF was ignored or twisted so that we could be saddled with the character for the next five years or so. And, to date, you are one of the very few Caldari RPers I've met who is even willing to associate their character with the leader of the State. Many, perhaps even most, Caldari RPers were very disgruntled by the change. I remember quite a few who read TEA, muttered an obscenity, and essentially quit RPing.

I believe the real issue for myself with Tibus Heth is that he was written in such a fashion that his xenophobic and irrational hatred for anything and everything that looks, smells, or acts Gallentean overshadowed every aspect behind the Provist revolution and the rise of the CPD. The character appears written to achieve one goal: Attack the Federation. Not out of any real requirements of national politics but rather for the simple reason that he hated Gallenteans with blind passion and wanted Caldari Prime back. To achieve that aim, yes, he was imbued with what could be said to be some rather abhorrent characteristics such as racial prejudice and violent ultranationalism that made him difficult to sympathize with as a human being.

I think it was unnecessary to imbue him with those characteristics because in its absence, he would have just been the leader of a successful labour movement in the State which probably would have made both himself and the Provists easier to relate to and understand, because in the end, violent ultranationalists had always been portrayed as extremists and in the minority not only because while they were stated as being so in the PF prior to TEA, they were also a threat to Megacorporate authority. I personally don't think portraying the State as a whole as supportive of Heth's brand of violent nationalism was necessary to write how war between the State and Federation began, not only because it detracts from the CPD as being fundamentally a labour reformist movement worthy in its own right but also because there were so many other options available besides having the Caldari State as aggressors lead by a violent and jingoistic nationalist.

Why not have it be about Mentas Blaque rising to power and usurping Foiritain by spreading fear about the instability caused by the CPD in the State and then having a minor border incident used as a pretext for invasion?

Why not have it simply be Mutual Defence Pact activations caused by the Elder invasion of the Empire?

In the end, TonyG and to an extent CCP themselves by allowing TEA to be published framed it as the violent and aggressive Caldari State lead by an ultranationalist leader in Heth attacking the peaceful and moderate Federation under Foiritain using the pretext of Malkalen which as a casus belli barely holds any substance and which implied directly, "No, it's not really about Malkalen but we just hate all Gallente and want Caldari Prime." To me as a player that read as a direct black and white attributation of the State as the violent and unsympathetic 'bad guys' vs. the peaceful and aggrieved Federal 'good guys'.

TonyG through characters such as Heth and Karsoth deliberately removed any sense of sympathy for readers to associate with either the State or Empire who were in turns portrayed through them as violent, intolerant, and corrupt while Republic and Federal characters were portrayed as the moderate, tolerant and empathetic victims of their predations.

This does not however change the fact that Tibus Heth is the State Executor and that he did recapture Caldari Prime. My character has her own views, but as a Caldari duty is all the same so she supports the CPD generally not because she may particularly agree with everything they espouse but more that she had recently moved from SuVee to KK due to familial obligations and feels that she must, not only as a proof of loyalty to her parent company, but because she's not in a position to question - only serve to the best of her ability. That to me is the essence of being a Caldari, and that conflict between duty and conscience is an interesting theme to explore in a character. Shed the tears in private but never in public and all that.

When I criticize CCP for how they have handled the portrayal of the Federation, it's primarily based on the above criticism. It's not that I think they need to make every other faction into a democratic, rights-based society. It's that I think the Federation is unrealistic as pictured - and I don't think that "subtlety!" is a good answer. Many of the problems of our modern democracies aren't subtle at all. How would the Federation handle a population which doesn't want to be educated? What about the balance of social services vs economic freedoms? Are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in the Fed? What's the crime situation like? How do they handle ethnic or religious immigrant conclaves that turn out radicalized or insular citizens? Are those isolated groups isolated because of radical beliefs, or because they are treated badly? Do they suffer from home-grown terrorism? Do they have religious groups trying to use democratically created laws to enforce religious customs? And so on. All of these things could be very realistic and thought-provoking problems, but we don't get them, because the Federation is a "utopia", and almost all problems come from the outside.

I think those elements are there, it's just that players don't utilize or ignore them in order to buy into the vision of the Federation as the 'good guys'. This can make sense in the fact that any character has to perceive themselves as the 'good guys' to an extent or at least justify what they do even if it can lead to strange cases of cognitive dissonance where in order to support the vision of the Federation being able to do no wrong IC'ly it leads to cases of rampant apologia or even denying the voice of other Federal citizens through slander who dare criticize it. Does that not reflect certain elements of reality though? I mean it only takes two minutes to roll a Fed character who is a dissident, outline the flaws of the Federation and watch those who seek to defend it, flail impotently if you frame the discussion correctly. The only reason corruption and greed prevails in the Federation is because its defenders deny that it could possibly exist within it. I mean, when the Fed epic arc can have you shooting up Minmatar ghettos and blowing up the brothels of decadent sex fetishists for one, they can't all be the 'good guys' no?

Although the lack of social commentary on the Fed or even any negative views expressed by it's citizenry on President Roden or Blaque and the SDII particularly surrounding supposed constitutional law, electoral law, or civil liberties does seem rather odd for what is meant to be a 'utopian' democracy. That, or maybe they're just really good at suppressing information about their activities so that people can keep on living the dream about freedom, liberty and all that good stuff.

To your point about western players, I think that Vikarion has not been Gallentean in mindset. It has definitely annoyed other characters when Vikarion makes statements like "if I have to kill every Federation citizen to protect the State, I will". But Vikarion doesn't even get why such a statement is even controversial, because to him, loyalty to his corporation and nation is a given. I say this to try to illustrate that I understand your point about players, to a certain extent. On the other hand, you can only go so far in creating a fictional culture before the majority of people start having trouble relating to it.

Yes, it's why I quite like Vikarion as a character.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #87 on: 16 Jan 2013, 09:26 »

I have heard that Ava blobs in solo wolfs, c/y?

C

That's why she has to be banned. :3
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #88 on: 16 Jan 2013, 11:33 »

Its not public knowledge ( I was there) but the BoF rebellion was staged by the broker.  Out of a population of billions he collected a few thousand dissidents, crazy folks, and ethnic Caldari from the Federation in a group and fed them some rhetoric.   Their job was to make it look like a grass roots populist rebellion had sprung up on it's own and managed to fund a their multi-billion ISK (not script, ISK) fleet on their own in a time when a billion ISK was still a significant amount to a Capsuleer Corp.

He then contacted CAIN under the guise of a mysterious figure calling himself 'The Patriot' and gave us a line about terrorist targeting civilians and put us in contact with a small security firm that was supposedly working for State authorities to stop them.   In reality the security firm worked for the Broker, if the CEO himself was not just another guise for the broker.     Their job was to murder the poor bastards he duped in the BoF on a live news feed.   

A dry run for the rise of Heth?

It's not to saying it's not policy to shoot rebels but The Broker went to a lot of trouble to get them shot down because the CEP would do it themselves.


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