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General Discussion => The Speakeasy: OOG/Off-topic Discussion => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 09 Aug 2011, 07:59
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As a local, I can confirm this this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424) is an accurate capture of the attitude of those who are currently rioting.
My high street is all smashed up and a lot of places have been closed. I can tell you that over the past ten years, I have grown up being surrounded by peers who have no respect for authority, or haven't been TAUGHT it by their parents. There is a phenomenon that I have witnessed in the local black community. When immigrant black mothers (not subsequent generation ones) have a baby, the father tends to do a runner. I can name at least two first-hand cases of this myself, and in all honesty I have no idea why this is, and will not even bother to pass a theory on it. One thing is certain of this, that it results in children growing up without a father figure, and thus no respect for authority. I've seen it in the way they interact with individuals like teachers and policemen. This is also another example of the very strong class divide in the UK. Accents and clothing plays a massive part in all of this (reporters have to dress up in hoodies to blend in etc)
This has been brewing up for past decade or so, I've sort of seen how the stereotypes have evolved, how the pieces have been set up before this explosion in violence. Kids are disillusioned, sure most of them are acting like tools, but they've had shit parenting. Anyone gonna blame us as being the problem? Hell no, the media won't get any viewership/readership if it did. On the other hand, rioting represents a last resort. The UK government has ultimately failed.
I honestly don't know, but authority, whether government or parents, needs to put their foot down.
(Also, this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065) is pretty sad)
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The same is in Chile btw, all those students protesting about education was summarized in a simple and yet profoundly truthful phrase:
Chile paradise for personal rights, no demands for personal duties.
Therefore all those students clamoring for free education do not take into account nearly all of the schools (or universities for that matter) that are actually free have a 40% or more of their students failing attendance because both parents and kids do not consider it important.
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And then people will learn the hard way that you don't know what you've got until it is gone. Fine, go ahead, pillage and burn all shops. See how you fare for food in say a week or two. Morons :bash:
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I have to agree with Seriphyn on this.
The root of every society is the family. Morals, discipline and character all start at the family. If the family degrades, society degrades. It has been demonstrated throughout history. If families (fathers AND mothers) would accept responsibility, discipline their children and lay the foundations for a successful and disciplined lifestyle, a lot of this would disappear.
It's not a popular viewpoint, but it's based on facts, history and truth. The values, or lack thereof, that children receive at home from their parents will permeate the rest of their lives.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
:ugh:
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Don't look at them it's the government's fault they're drinking! The conserva-ives or whoever!
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I am not english native, but have seen similar sociological issues all my childhood with other children. Their education or parental education is to blame, but the primary cause takes its root deeply in economical, sociological problems and inegalities. It is not a mystery that most of them are part of the imigration or very poor families that gather dramatic financial/familial issues like magnets because of their own living conditions, often reinforced by the ghettos syndrome.
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(fathers AND mothers)
Or father and father, or mother and mother. Or, I don't know, the countless single parents that have already proven to be able to lay a solid foundation of moral and ethical values in their children. It's a lot less about a specific type of family structure and more about parents not being.... well, terrible parents.
Not that I don't agree with everything else you said, I just get offended by the insinuation that a child needs a parent of each gender in order to develop into an ordinary adult. It's simply not true. These kind of statements are typically footed in religious beliefs and not real history. In actuality, the "traditional" husband-and-wife family is a (relatively) recent creation.
In any case, these chumps are doing anarchy all wrong. Hugs, not hurt!
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(fathers AND mothers)
Or father and father, or mother and mother. Or, I don't know, the countless single parents that have already proven to be able to lay a solid foundation of moral and ethical values in their children. It's a lot less about a specific type of family structure and more about parents not being.... well, terrible parents.
Not that I don't agree with everything else you said, I just get offended by the insinuation that a child needs a parent of each gender in order to develop into an ordinary adult. It's simply not true. These kind of statements are typically footed in religious beliefs and not real history. In actuality, the "traditional" husband-and-wife family is a (relatively) recent creation.
In any case, these chumps are doing anarchy all wrong. Hugs, not hurt!
^This
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(fathers AND mothers)
Or father and father, or mother and mother. Or, I don't know, the countless single parents that have already proven to be able to lay a solid foundation of moral and ethical values in their children. It's a lot less about a specific type of family structure and more about parents not being.... well, terrible parents.
Not that I don't agree with everything else you said, I just get offended by the insinuation that a child needs a parent of each gender in order to develop into an ordinary adult. It's simply not true. These kind of statements are typically footed in religious beliefs and not real history. In actuality, the "traditional" husband-and-wife family is a (relatively) recent creation.
I think you're taking his comments out-of-context and interpreting it as anti-LGBT when he's just talking about families in general. The vast majority of couples are still heterosexual after all, and nowhere in this subject matter are we talking about LGBT.
And no, the single parenting thing hasn't worked, especially those are have been forced to rely on the welfare system. We're seeing the results of a substandard family background here in these riots.
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Thank you Seriphyn.
My words were not meant to offend, I was simply emphasizing that it is not the fault of one parent or the other, it is a fault of both. Apply that to whatever situations you want to apply it to, it remains truth. Even in single parenting, where the one parent has to try and fill both roles.
I apologize for the confusion.
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Peasants. A field of peasants (Vaari, 2007)
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So when are they gonna start shooting rubber bullets? People who act like animals aren't gonna disperse with fierce language and rhetoric- they have to learn the hard way, and quite frankly, all I see in all the videos are cops fleeing from gangs of rioters. It doesn't look very good.
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Thank you Seriphyn.
My words were not meant to offend, I was simply emphasizing that it is not the fault of one parent or the other, it is a fault of both. Apply that to whatever situations you want to apply it to, it remains truth. Even in single parenting, where the one parent has to try and fill both roles.
I apologize for the confusion.
No probalo dude, thanks for the clarification.
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So when are they gonna start shooting rubber bullets? People who act like animals aren't gonna disperse with fierce language and rhetoric- they have to learn the hard way, and quite frankly, all I see in all the videos are cops fleeing from gangs of rioters. It doesn't look very good.
My understanding is that the ROEs/SOPs (Rules of Engagement/Standard Operating Procedures) are much tighter when it comes to weapons-release authority in England. Maybe Seriphyn can speak more to that; my knowledge is secondhand.
I don't know where you live Doyle, but by comparison to foreign countries I've been to law enforcement in the US is much faster to wheel up the heavy artillery in confronting protesters. I was stationed in South Korea during the height of the 2008 Beef Riots and we had ringside seats for the entire affair. Cops there simply did not have the political backing or tools in their arsenal to effectively confront protesters.
The US trust in the ROK cops was so low that everyone on our base was required to have auxiliary security force training; I think the Base CO seriously expected the local cops to run if a riot broke out near our base. Our understanding was that if local cops failed and protesters started coming over the base walls (bear in mind this is South Korea, a nominal ally), you opened up with live ammo.
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I get it. I really do. It just looks and feels like the cops aren't playing on a level field with the rioters, and I'm afraid civilians are going to get hurt because the higher ups are too timid to react appropriately.
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I get it. I really do. It just looks and feels like the cops aren't playing on a level field with the rioters, and I'm afraid civilians are going to get hurt because the higher ups are too timid to react appropriately.
Indeed. I am terrified for the welfare of my friends and family living quite close to areas where there have been disturbances. One of my friends reported looking out their window and seeing groups of feral youths collecting bricks and other items to use as projectiles.
In terms of escalating the counters, I hope it happens sooner...however, escalation isn't a long term solution. The miscreants can just logoffski and come back when the enforcement fleets are absent.
My thoughts are that in the longer term, rehabilitation/punishment should entail repairing the damage caused, and seizure of stolen goods. Take those who destroy property, teach them to repair it, and have them repair it with strict discipline. At least they will leave with skills they can use to make an honest living.
The full solution is probably far more complicated, and possibly shouldn't be directed by the government but handed to communities to put in place themselves, so that they see that they should not defer all responsibility to the authorities for keeping social order.
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If Thatcher would be the PM at the moment, they all would be dead or in jail by now.
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I think they should make them all a cup of tea. Surely that'll calm things down.
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The only place water cannon trucks can be found is Northern Ireland, and nowhere else on the Great Britain mainland. We do not have a history of using military deployment to curb civil unrest (outside of NI), and no PM will be willing to break a decades-long tradition. Moreover, deploying the military would indicate that the problem has become far more serious, and an international blackmark, as the UK has never done it (again, outside of NI) in recent generations. We have always been a country that is uncomfortable with militarism, even if we're the second leading military power in the West.
Similarly, using rubber bullets or any less-than-lethal technology is something we just don't do; if ONE person dies from it, then it'll only become worse (After all, this was started by a police shooting of a gun criminal). Police do not have any respect from those who are rioting as it is, if they are implicated in killing one of theirs, only more fuel would be added to the fire.
It appears moot now, however. Police deploying 16000 cops (instead of the 6000 of the past few nights) has made things in London relatively peaceful, but not in other cities. Not sure what's going to happen there.
Meanwhile, members of the community coming together to clean up (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/08/09/london.riots.clean.up/?hpt=hp_t1) via Facebook and Twitter is inspiring (and correspondents giving morning-after reports in hoodies is morbidly amusing)
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Yes Seriphyn, you are lucky they try not to use rubber bullets, or even tasers and things like that. They did it I don't remember when in my country for far less violence, and it only helped to inflamate everything because people died of it.
Peasants. A field of peasants (Vaari, 2007)
Omhy you are right. It is the PEASANTSTORM !
So when are they gonna start shooting rubber bullets? People who act like animals aren't gonna disperse with fierce language and rhetoric- they have to learn the hard way, and quite frankly, all I see in all the videos are cops fleeing from gangs of rioters. It doesn't look very good.
Yeah. Though it will solve the issue on the short-run, it will make it worse on the long-run. I think the english conservatives got what they deserved here, by cutting out in social welfare and charity fundings (or thats what I heard).
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Seems like the government has authorized water cannons and rubber bullets (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14475363) "if necessary and withint 24 hours notice". Some valid points by PM Cameron as well I think, IMO.
Another good ad hoc interview with some local kids in Manchester (http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm). You can clearly hear how these guys are just foolish, with no agenda, clearly no idea what they're doing.
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A contrast:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7844916.stm & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Outrage
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Yeah, I'm not really buying the notion that we need to be careful not to hurt any more rioters or it'll get worse! mantra, because, to be honest, this doesn't have anything to do with a dead 29 year old anymore. It's about protecting their own citizens and restoring order, and as you can hear on the BBC news, people who depend on the cops to protect them are getting pissed nothing is happening. So the authority has lost the respect of thousands of disenfranchised youths, now they're gonna lose the support of the rest of the population? Might as well pack it up now.
You know, I was going to talk about the socio-economic, political, and cultural factors as a means of justifying the lost generation, because I don't necessarily believe right away what the media tells us that these are just thugs and scumbags. If they ever had a message it got lost when they started burning and looting every store they find because they're trying get back at the 'rich' people. I dunno, if that ever happened in my city, I think I'd be getting my neighbors together and discourage any of rioters from getting into the area, especially if the cops proved unwilling or unable to protect us.
Hope things get better.
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A few of your British paratroopers on the scene, the ones with the Northern Ireland patches, and the problem would be solved.
I understand your points that you feel military involvment would be harsh, but that concept wont comfort the people whos shops and homes are burning.
If your government does not allow you the means to defend yourselves, then they need to deal with the problem as expediently as possible.
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A few of your British paratroopers on the scene, the ones with the Northern Ireland patches, and the problem would be solved.
I understand your points that you feel military involvment would be harsh, but that concept wont comfort the people whos shops and homes are burning.
If your government does not allow you the means to defend yourselves, then they need to deal with the problem as expediently as possible.
Yes well....
The thing is for all the years the military spent in NI, eventually it was negotiated. Para's are for killing people, not for acting as police.
Back in the day colonial police could be quite brutal. Apparently standard practice in places like Hong Kong was to lay a marker across the road, post snipers and read the riot act. If anyone crosses the marker then shooting commences.
Also I seem to recall a certain notorious bit of military riot control during Ghandi's day. Amritsar if memory serves correctly.
The initial tendency in cases like this is to demand that Something Should Be Done. And the initial popularist solution (shoot 'em all, send them to Afghanistan etc) rarely helps matters.
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The same is in Chile btw, all those students protesting about education was summarized in a simple and yet profoundly truthful phrase:
Chile paradise for personal rights, no demands for personal duties.
Therefore all those students clamoring for free education do not take into account nearly all of the schools (or universities for that matter) that are actually free have a 40% or more of their students failing attendance because both parents and kids do not consider it important.
Chile. Lovely country. Very pretty. Visited a friend there a few years back and spent some time around Santiago and down south.
Trouble is in Chile you still have some of Pinochet's crowd still around and in power (as I understand it). The people who thought that killing someone and etching the flesh off their bones with acid was reasonable behaviour. Not to mention lopping off hands for playing a guitar.
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It’s terrible indeed. What makes me a bit angry is that people are now calling to raise the budget for police and welfare programmes. I am not against it as a matter of principle, but the timing couldn’t be worse. It’s both some kind of excuse for what is happening and would be a successful outcome of blackmailing (only that the blackmailer wouldn’t be the rioter, but a political interest group kidnapping the protests). I am especially saddened to see the fate of the elderly people. They’ve gone through the whole shit of the 20th century and now this. They’ve raised a generation and now everything goes into flames. Houellebecq got it all right in his novels. They are more up-to-date than ever.
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A few of your British paratroopers on the scene, the ones with the Northern Ireland patches, and the problem would be solved.
I understand your points that you feel military involvment would be harsh, but that concept wont comfort the people whos shops and homes are burning.
If your government does not allow you the means to defend yourselves, then they need to deal with the problem as expediently as possible.
Yes well....
The thing is for all the years the military spent in NI, eventually it was negotiated. Para's are for killing people, not for acting as police.
Back in the day colonial police could be quite brutal. Apparently standard practice in places like Hong Kong was to lay a marker across the road, post snipers and read the riot act. If anyone crosses the marker then shooting commences.
Also I seem to recall a certain notorious bit of military riot control during Ghandi's day. Amritsar if memory serves correctly.
The initial tendency in cases like this is to demand that Something Should Be Done. And the initial popularist solution (shoot 'em all, send them to Afghanistan etc) rarely helps matters.
This.
English public opinion is following France populist and radical footsteps under Sarkozy (minister of the interior) in 2005 with all the suburbs riots ("use the Kärcher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A4rcher)" he said). Same issues, more or less. I sincerely hope they will not do the same mistake.
Edit : medias had a good part in playing on fear and were totally biased on the matter.
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In my state, if you are throwing petrol bombs at people's homes, you are temporarily relinquishing your rights to be treated as human and nobody here will cry for you at your funeral when cops or decent law abiding citizens gun you down.
You can either stop the violent offenders in the act with force, or you can put the lotion in the basket when they enter your home.
I give props to Seri for being among the first I've seen who aren't afraid to speak of the influence parts of 'black culture' have played in these tragic events. It takes a certain amount of real life experience to understand this, which evidentally he has from living where he does.
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In my state, if you are throwing petrol bombs at people's homes, you are temporarily relinquishing your rights to be treated as human and nobody here will cry for you at your funeral when cops or decent law abiding citizens gun you down.
You can either stop the violent offenders in the act with force, or you can put the lotion in the basket when they enter your home.
I cannot help but echo this sentiment. These kinds of actions need to be met with swift, decisive justice. A soft, "bleeding heart" approach only encourages their already impressively low viewpoint of authority.
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Yeah, growing up, ‘respect for authority’ took the form of a healthy fear of the Wrath of Mom™. As a result, I actually had fairly relaxed rules regarding what I could do – but when I broke those rules, the Wrath came down. The ‘Authority’ and I had a very clear understanding of what the rules were, and I made a point to stay within them.
These days, the culture we’ve developed is telling us to rebel against (or at least not to respect) authority, despite the fact that it’s (ideally) there for our own good. Kids learn not to respect their parents, parents learn that they have to be ‘cool’ (read: not disciplinarians) in order to remain on good terms with their kids, etc. Play this out a few years/decades and you’ve got a generation that doesn’t respect its parents, doesn’t respect the police, doesn’t respect much of anything baring perhaps the laws of physics.
Personally, I’d suggest the police adopt a stance similar to what my mother did – stay within the rules and I’m the best friend you’ve got. Break them and I’m coming down like the fucking hammer of god.
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Yeah, growing up, ‘respect for authority’ took the form of a healthy fear of the Wrath of Mom™. As a result, I actually had fairly relaxed rules regarding what I could do – but when I broke those rules, the Wrath came down. The ‘Authority’ and I had a very clear understanding of what the rules were, and I made a point to stay within them.
These days, the culture we’ve developed is telling us to rebel against (or at least not to respect) authority, despite the fact that it’s (ideally) there for our own good. Kids learn not to respect their parents, parents learn that they have to be ‘cool’ (read: not disciplinarians) in order to remain on good terms with their kids, etc. Play this out a few years/decades and you’ve got a generation that doesn’t respect its parents, doesn’t respect the police, doesn’t respect much of anything baring perhaps the laws of physics.
Personally, I’d suggest the police adopt a stance similar to what my mother did – stay within the rules and I’m the best friend you’ve got. Break them and I’m coming down like the fucking hammer of god.
QFT
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What Victoria said. I've been raised the same. My parents were both very supportive of me, and still today my dad goes to great lengths of making sure I have the best in life a parent can offer. But I also always knew what the rules were that gave me that freedom and perks. And even now, when I'm at an age where I can't really be told anymore to do or not do something, it's something that comes naturally, because I learned through growing up with these rules exactly why they were like that. And that last bit is important too. Lots of parents say "You cannot smoke" but few will tell their children exactly that they'd not like them to get caught in the trap of addiction and how it affects your health. And that's something a random stranger's black lungs can't quite live up to when it comes to leaving an impression and getting the message across. Same goes for respect. Treat others as you wish to be treated, no matter how though the going gets.
One thing that strikes me about this news though is that people label off the rioters as lazy and unwilling to work. I'm wondering what the locals make of that? Because this can be an easy conclusion to jump to, and of course there will be those, but I have this feeling there are those among the mob as well that have tried their hardest and seen no results because we're living in a time of market crashes. And like with how these things generally go, it's usually a build-up of many factors.
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Ah, apparently I wasn't completely full of shit when I was talking about absent fathers (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/cristinaodone/100100154/london-riots-absent-fathers-have-a-lot-to-answer-for/) (wasn't sure I was 100% on that). Found it on Wikipedia's article Causes of the 2011 England riots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_2011_England_riots).
I don't want to play the eye-rolley card of invoking further personal experience into this discussion, as if to assert further that "I am right because this is happening in my local area/culture" or something, but I will share something else as to why this occured. My maternal family are 1960s Tamil immigrants, and I have a large amount of cousins (something in the region of 16), and the dynamic is that we behave more like brothers and sisters. They are an extremely diverse bunch; one of my cousins is an Oxford graduate and trained opera singer, another is a stockbroker who has worked in Manhattan and Geneva, but they cover the entire class spectrum. Literally, I have a set of cousins (brothers of each other) who are an underclass; having lost their white mother, they were subsequently ejected by the deceased woman's family from their comfortable suburban home due to some hookey religious beliefs about burning everything that was connected to her. This was in their preteens. With nothing, the father (my uncle) and his two boys (the sister ran off to Kent to live with her maternal grandparents, while the third boy fell off the radar, a much older one from a previous marriage) were forced to move into a council estate. Now, with the two boys now spending their teenage years in an extremely rundown area, they rapidly got sucked into a lifestyle of gangs and drugs. For years, it's still like this. I remember being 8 or 9 and seeing them like this, now I’m 21, and one of them is in prison for aggravated assault.
Speaking to the third brother (far older than the rest) who recently resurfaced, he has “been there, done that” with this whole gang culture, I asked him what he thought was the primary cause for all of this, the gang culture and the lot (this was two years ago). I proposed the idea that it’s nothing but these lot trying to imitate American rap culture; taking for granted that we will never have it as bad as in the US materially speaking. He couldn’t agree more, saying that’s basically all it is. However, in my young life, I have learnt that there is no one cause for anything.
Why IS rap culture to blame? The absent fathers, perhaps. They provide no guidance due to their lack of presence, so the kids latch onto something else. They’re not going to listen to their mothers if they want to be badmen; only a pussyhole listens to his mummy, after all. But why are the fathers absent? A governmental, widespread societal problem? The root cause goes on, and on, and on. There’s so many of it, all interconnected and interlinked, and I’m beginning to feel nothing short of a new world war would be able to significantly uproot modern society and establish a new one.
I would say that black culture has nothing to do with race. The cousins I was referring to in this instance are mixed race (white and Tamil), yet have been sucked into this culture. It is only “black culture” as far as the fact that it is black individuals that “represent” or are “the face” of it all. I’ll be first to point out there are plenty of highly successful, West African families in the UK that are stupendously well-off. Again, maybe it’s the whole idea that the UK has had a strong history of a class divide. Now, in the modern day, add in race and ethnicity into the class divide. It gets further compounded. The government and police will primarily be seen as a “white institution”, staffed by old white men and women. Why would the black rioters listen to them, when they see this white institution as the cause of their problems? After all, personal enterprise can only go so far. Even if these individuals WERE motivated to get jobs and be something, the OPPORTUNITY must be provided by government, and the society. Saying “go get a job” doesn’t stand up when there isn’t actually any available (easy to use that as an excuse, on the other hand).
I feel it doesn’t really matter whether or not their reasoning behind their rioting is valid or not, this is how they FEEL. If you think their feelings are invalid, then it is the job of society to thus, perhaps, educate or guide them into following a more correct path. But society has failed. These kids might be talking utter shit, have absolutely no valid reason as to why they are doing this. Perhaps they’re not educated enough to express their cause? It is undeniable, I reckon, that society has bred individuals that are capable of such an act. Sure, they might be tools, they might be idiots, but who made them idiots?.
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You did not just cite Wikipedia.
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Actually, looks like Wikipedia just cited a BBC article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149).
Lack of fathers
According to Cristina Odone of the Daily Telegraph, the riots could be traced back to a lack of male role models: "Like the overwhelming majority of youth offenders behind bars, these gang members have one thing in common: no father at home."
"I brought up two boys on my own," says Prof FitzGerald. "Yes, there are some issues about where boys get a positive sense of masculinity from when they don't have anyone in the home to give it. But if you have a stable family set-up then these kids can still be very high-achieving."
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If it is a moral problem, does the absence of religion play as a factor?
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If it is a moral problem, does the absence of religion play as a factor?
Yes, yes it does.
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I feel it doesn’t really matter whether or not their reasoning behind their rioting is valid or not, this is how they FEEL. If you think their feelings are invalid, then it is the job of society to thus, perhaps, educate or guide them into following a more correct path. But society has failed. These kids might be talking utter shit, have absolutely no valid reason as to why they are doing this. Perhaps they’re not educated enough to express their cause? It is undeniable, I reckon, that society has bred individuals that are capable of such an act. Sure, they might be tools, they might be idiots, but who made them idiots?.
Exactly.
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Raze, yes, these riots have to be dealt with strenght and decisive justice. But justice is here for that, no need to change it especially for them. Or just change the whole justice system if you consider it does not it job properly. In any case, yes, they must be shown that violence is not to be tolerated. What alarms me is the tendancy people have to resort to statements like "Hell, shoot in the mob, they deserve it". This is just scaring. Use rubber bullets if needed, sure, but be aware of what oil it can add to the fire if someone is killed. Someone killed is going to be considered in a martyrdom way. And you know what its capable of. I have seen and witnessed that. As I said earlier, I totally understand why english authorities are being cautious. Anyway, you do not need that to beat a mob.
Eventually, what has to be corrected is not to be sure these people get severely treated, at the contrary : they must be treated rightly as anyone would, or again, you walk directly on the martyrdom road.
So yes, I can not help but find Kazzzi last words quite obnoxious, and frightening. It is the usual extremist populist propaganda that works well just because it plays on the safety of the people without any consideration for the long-run.
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The thing is, we have courts for justice. We have police for protection. If cars are being taken and burned and businesses are being robbed and torched, I'd like to know that the police I'm funding with my taxes are going to do their job. Why should I have to suffer (property destroyed, etc) just so that the police can keep the kid gloves on while dealing with the mob?
Oh, and Kazzzo's an ex marine, his view may be slightly colored.
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I understand what you're saying Lyn, but I would counter-argue that if things like this can happen and justice ISN'T done, then it's clear proof that our "justice system" needs review. You're not making an exception for them, you're learning from your mistakes and making improvements to the system based on experiences.
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I saw something on CNN this morning that said the police in England did not necessarily have the authority to tell a person to remove their mask if the suspected that person was involved in criminal behavior.
If true, that is utterly insane.
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If it is a moral problem, does the absence of religion play as a factor?
Yes, yes it does.
I disagree. It is not necessarily the absence of religion, but rather the absence of a motivator for moral/objective appraisal of a situation and one's actions.
Religion can provide a framework for morality, but can also be abused/ignored by those wanting to commit what their society considers immoral acts. Logical thought can also provide a framework for morality (depending on the variances in your society's morality, which are likely based on an ancient religion and the society that brought that religion into existence).
However, this leads to a philosophical discussion on whether humans are inherently good or evil, whether codified religion (and the laws associated with it) are necessary to check any inherent evil in humans, and the development of religion in relation to human civilization. A topic for another thread and likely one that will not result in any of the participants changing their point of view.
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I think plenty of research and data can support a claim that a good support structure (be it family, friends, etc.) can positively impact a young adult's direction in life. Environment most certainly plays its part on influencing the behavior and decisions of individuals, including their value system and life goals.
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Environment, parents, out-of-family support structures, they all matter. Religion, however, is far from a prerequisite to morality. I've never had religion, nor have most of those I know. Unless we're suddenly immoral creatures, I don't see how there can be an argument for religion somehow being a pre-requisite for morality.
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Regarding the poor immigrant families in my country, mostly of arab or maghreb origin, are often found in these kind of situations, firstly because they are immigrants and most of them have difficulties (the father left, etc), but also secondly due to their islamic culture, or sometimes of some african culture. Not that to say the culture is bad, at the contrary, but there is a cultural fact which consists to take for granted that a son is the rightful heir of the father, thus the next in line for the family, and can only be grounded/punished by the father himself. The father is often absent, or just does not have the time to care because he is struggling to give his family a decent living. The mother has absolutely no right to even criticize the son in a lot of cases (cultural problem), and just has to educate him in his daily life, at the contrary of daughters, who follow a very strict moral code. This is blatant in real life, especially with teens, where girls are terribly shy and submissive, and where guys are provocative, insulting, lacking of elementary respect, and basically think they can do what they want.
These are cases where foreigner cultures does not blend well with the western culture. I do not know how exactly it is in England, but I would not be surprised to see it is not that different.
Regarding religion, well, yes, this is another complex debate. I would say that religion gave us with time our own moral basis (we can't deny all that our ethics are at least a little based on christian, islamic or orthodox religions). By these ethics right or wrong. Though now, as much as I admit to follow unconsciously these basics, I have never believed in anything, much less in God(s), and am a fervent agnostic. As said above, this does not prevent me to follow my own strict moral code, because I had an education.
The thing is, we have courts for justice. We have police for protection. If cars are being taken and burned and businesses are being robbed and torched, I'd like to know that the police I'm funding with my taxes are going to do their job. Why should I have to suffer (property destroyed, etc) just so that the police can keep the kid gloves on while dealing with the mob?
Of course, if the police does not do its job properly... By the way, this is also one of the issues in Europe these days. Can't speak for all countries, but our youth is somewhat delusionned in a police they consider sometimes corrupt of abusive with its authority.
I understand what you're saying Lyn, but I would counter-argue that if things like this can happen and justice ISN'T done, then it's clear proof that our "justice system" needs review. You're not making an exception for them, you're learning from your mistakes and making improvements to the system based on experiences.
Justice is not doing its job ? I am asking genuinly here, I have no clue at all.
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Hearts and minds, people. Hearts and minds.
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So yes, I can not help but find Kazzzi last words quite obnoxious, and frightening. It is the usual extremist populist propaganda that works well just because it plays on the safety of the people without any consideration for the long-run.
If some punk was approaching your home holding a petrol bomb and was lining up to throw it, would you rather:
A. Sombody kill the punk before he can throw it?
B. Let your home and potentially your family and neighbors all burn to ashes?
For some odd reason, idealist college kids often pick B. I personally would pick A specifically out of consideration for the long-run.
I have lived and worked in some nasty ghettos. These people often choose to live as they do. They are proud of their trashy nature, of their drug use, and of the crimes they commit. In my state, any of these people can go to college for free, yet they choose not to. Many places here are still hiring but they refuse to work honest jobs because they see real work as a stigma. They would rather steal, sell drugs, beg on street corners and if female, whore themselves out. Then they purposefully supplement their income by having more children and collecting welfare for it.
You can rack your brain trying to figure out why these people are the way they are, but shit doesnt need a reason to stink.
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Also, looks like it swept over to scotland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE
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Blaming Social Media (http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/social.media/08/11/london.riots.social.media/index.html?hpt=hp_c2)
It is amazing how when Social Media outlets are used to organize anti-government events outside the West, they are praised, but when it occurs at home they make moves to do the same things the little tyrants do.
The every present tug between Security & Liberty is rearing its head and the masses are likely to choose Security over Liberty.
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Also, looks like it swept over to scotland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0356brnrE
hilarious.
Also, boo to anti-facebook douchebaggery. What are they gonna do next, blame the riots on violent video games? :P
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Yep. Since they did too little too late they will now compensate by taking away more of your personal freedoms.
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Environment, parents, out-of-family support structures, they all matter. Religion, however, is far from a prerequisite to morality. I've never had religion, nor have most of those I know. Unless we're suddenly immoral creatures, I don't see how there can be an argument for religion somehow being a pre-requisite for morality.
There has been no suggestion that religion is a prerequisite for morality.
However, the appropriate presence of religion can provide a value system that can enhance moral behaviour in a society.
Edit:
I never thought I'd link an article from the dailymail (the bias is too smelly for my taste), but it is one that I have found relevant and relatively thought provoking:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2025393/UK-riots-Haroon-Jahan-death-Legacy-society-believes-nothing.html
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So yes, I can not help but find Kazzzi last words quite obnoxious, and frightening. It is the usual extremist populist propaganda that works well just because it plays on the safety of the people without any consideration for the long-run.
If some punk was approaching your home holding a petrol bomb and was lining up to throw it, would you rather:
A. Sombody kill the punk before he can throw it?
B. Let your home and potentially your family and neighbors all burn to ashes?
For some odd reason, idealist college kids often pick B. I personally would pick A specifically out of consideration for the long-run.
I have lived and worked in some nasty ghettos. These people often choose to live as they do. They are proud of their trashy nature, of their drug use, and of the crimes they commit. In my state, any of these people can go to college for free, yet they choose not to. Many places here are still hiring but they refuse to work honest jobs because they see real work as a stigma. They would rather steal, sell drugs, beg on street corners and if female, whore themselves out. Then they purposefully supplement their income by having more children and collecting welfare for it.
You can rack your brain trying to figure out why these people are the way they are, but shit doesnt need a reason to stink.
Your example is simplistic, at best. You forgot C: Somody hold up the punk before it can throw it ?
Don't even try to make me believe this is a matter of "its them or us !".
If these people choose to live as they do (and thats not a damn black and white situation anyway so this assumption is highly doubtful for a lot of them), thats because of something. This is what I have tried to say in every other post I did in this topic.
Yep. Since they did too little too late they will now compensate by taking away more of your personal freedoms.
That is definitly true.
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Your example is simplistic, at best. You forgot C: Somody hold up the punk before it can throw it ?
Not an option. In this hypothetical situation your only potential savior has spawned 50 meters away with a rifle, loaded with live lead ammunition, and only has seconds to react.
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It is a little too easy to restrict all the possibilities by hypothesises like that.
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It's very similar to an ethics question my college professor asked. She didn't consider either answer wrong as with most ethics questions.
Regardless, you took too long to decide and stuffs are a burnin nao.
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So yes, I can not help but find Kazzzi last words quite obnoxious, and frightening. It is the usual extremist populist propaganda that works well just because it plays on the safety of the people without any consideration for the long-run.
If some punk was approaching your home holding a petrol bomb and was lining up to throw it, would you rather:
A. Sombody kill the punk before he can throw it?
B. Let your home and potentially your family and neighbors all burn to ashes?
For some odd reason, idealist college kids often pick B. I personally would pick A specifically out of consideration for the long-run.
I would pick option C: Shoot the punk myself.
I am an idealist, but only till my realism takes over.
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Seems the moral panicsters on "high-brow" chat shows and chin-wagging broadsheet columnists are all, to their credit, pointing to the "breakdown of the family unit", so there is some hope. The root cause has been acknowledged, it remains to be seen if the government will acknowledge it.
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So when exactly is Cameron going to be elected Lord Protector of the Commonwealth?
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The root cause has been acknowledged, it remains to be seen if the government will acknowledge it.
Then what?
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The root cause has been acknowledged, it remains to be seen if the government will acknowledge it.
Then what?
Exactly what I was wondering.
You can rack your brain trying to figure out why these people are the way they are, but shit doesnt need a reason to stink.
Just quoting.
Anyhow, from what I understand, several hundred of the suspects arrested during the London riots are already being charged? If so, it sounds like justice is being dealt a lot swifter there than in Vancouver where not a single rioter is currently facing criminal charges, let alone jail time.
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... There is a phenomenon that I have witnessed in the local black community. When immigrant black mothers (not subsequent generation ones) have a baby, the father tends to do a runner. I can name at least two first-hand cases of this myself, and in all honesty I have no idea why this is, and will not even bother to pass a theory on it ...
So, is it is the fault of the black immigrants? It must be, because there are two whole verifiable cases confirming that when the fathers of black immigrant pregnant wives "do a runner", it leads to the social decay of an entire generation?
Were there no children not born from black immigrant mothers rioting?
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The recent riots shamed this nation in as much that they simply didn't go far enough. I am bitterly disappointed that, as an acceptable minimum, the Houses of Parliament or Buckingham Palace were not burnt to the ground. Please try harder next time.
As far as I'm concerned, the real criminals are the ones sitting happily on the piles of money they have plundered from us all; not the unheard underclass. Sir Philip Green, for example, has stolen around £1billion from us in tax avoidance, and has been knighted for his trouble. All of which puts a bit of damage to some of his tat-selling high street shops in perspective.
Our politicians, meanwhile, queue to one-up each other in their condemnation of the rioters and willingly scramble to throw away some more of our hard-won freedoms in yet another knee-jerk reaction.
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Our politicians, meanwhile, queue to one-up each other in their condemnation of the rioters and willingly scramble to throw away some more of our hard-won freedoms in yet another knee-jerk reaction.
Which freedoms do you consider being unjustly taken away? Freedom from consequence is not freedom.
I agree that there may have been organised criminals making off with the largest proceeds. I have also seen evidence that the looters came from many walks of life, not just the unprivelaged.
However, amongst the first duties of government in my eyes is the assurance of the upholding of the law. That someone was poor or came from a 'broken family' must not change the tenacity with which it is upheld.
You cited a prolific tax evader - I am sure you are aware that the battle against tax evasion is one of many the UK government faces. Not to comment on its efforts, but I don't see how citing this one successful tax evader has weight to belittle the criminal behaviour seen in this event.
In general, I would like to understand why poverty can be used as an excuse for such behaviour. Why doesn't this behaviour regularly happen in other countries faced with huge inequalities, or why it hadn't happened at other times of crisis, such as during the great economic depression?
In my view this is mainly a problem to do with values at the personal and societal level, not poverty. I would agree that the problem is layered and poverty is a factor. The looters were stealing luxury goods, not articles of sustenance.
As part of a multi-input solution, I would have liked to see those convicted drafted into reconstruction groups, who would repair the damage done, a type of community service. In doing so, they would learn skills that they could use to obtain an honest income after being discharged. In doing so, they would become accustomed to a scheduled life. In doing so, they'd be able to pick themselves up on their own merits after they get kicked out of subsidized accomodation that their community had previously funded.
A community has to learn to take care of its own. I would welcome less government involvement in trying to solve these overly complicated problems rather than spending money on solutions that have had no worthwhile effects. The movements for enhancing cross-community cooperation would be part of the way forward.