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[Raze Valadeus]

In my state, if you are throwing petrol bombs at people's homes, you are temporarily relinquishing your rights to be treated as human and nobody here will cry for you at your funeral when cops or decent law abiding citizens gun you down.

You can either stop the violent offenders in the act with force, or you can put the lotion in the basket when they enter your home.

I cannot help but echo this sentiment. These kinds of actions need to be met with swift, decisive justice. A soft, "bleeding heart" approach only encourages their already impressively low viewpoint of authority.

[Victoria Stecker]

Yeah, growing up, ‘respect for authority’ took the form of a healthy fear of the Wrath of Mom™.  As a result, I actually had fairly relaxed rules regarding what I could do – but when I broke those rules, the Wrath came down.  The ‘Authority’ and I had a very clear understanding of what the rules were, and I made a point to stay within them.

These days, the culture we’ve developed is telling us to rebel against (or at least not to respect) authority, despite the fact that it’s (ideally) there for our own good. Kids learn not to respect their parents, parents learn that they have to be ‘cool’ (read: not disciplinarians) in order to remain on good terms with their kids, etc. Play this out a few years/decades and you’ve got a generation that doesn’t respect its parents, doesn’t respect the police, doesn’t respect much of anything baring perhaps the laws of physics.

Personally, I’d suggest the police adopt a stance similar to what my mother did – stay within the rules and I’m the best friend you’ve got. Break them and I’m coming down like the fucking hammer of god.

[Raze Valadeus]

Yeah, growing up, ‘respect for authority’ took the form of a healthy fear of the Wrath of Mom™.  As a result, I actually had fairly relaxed rules regarding what I could do – but when I broke those rules, the Wrath came down.  The ‘Authority’ and I had a very clear understanding of what the rules were, and I made a point to stay within them.

These days, the culture we’ve developed is telling us to rebel against (or at least not to respect) authority, despite the fact that it’s (ideally) there for our own good. Kids learn not to respect their parents, parents learn that they have to be ‘cool’ (read: not disciplinarians) in order to remain on good terms with their kids, etc. Play this out a few years/decades and you’ve got a generation that doesn’t respect its parents, doesn’t respect the police, doesn’t respect much of anything baring perhaps the laws of physics.

Personally, I’d suggest the police adopt a stance similar to what my mother did – stay within the rules and I’m the best friend you’ve got. Break them and I’m coming down like the fucking hammer of god.

QFT

[Myrhial Arkenath]

What Victoria said. I've been raised the same. My parents were both very supportive of me, and still today my dad goes to great lengths of making sure I have the best in life a parent can offer. But I also always knew what the rules were that gave me that freedom and perks. And even now, when I'm at an age where I can't really be told anymore to do or not do something, it's something that comes naturally, because I learned through growing up with these rules exactly why they were like that. And that last bit is important too. Lots of parents say "You cannot smoke" but few will tell their children exactly that they'd not like them to get caught in the trap of addiction and how it affects your health. And that's something a random stranger's black lungs can't quite live up to when it comes to leaving an impression and getting the message across. Same goes for respect. Treat others as you wish to be treated, no matter how though the going gets.

One thing that strikes me about this news though is that people label off the rioters as lazy and unwilling to work. I'm wondering what the locals make of that? Because this can be an easy conclusion to jump to, and of course there will be those, but I have this feeling there are those among the mob as well that have tried their hardest and seen no results because we're living in a time of market crashes. And like with how these things generally go, it's usually a build-up of many factors.

[Seriphyn]

Ah, apparently I wasn't completely full of shit when I was talking about absent fathers (wasn't sure I was 100% on that). Found it on Wikipedia's article Causes of the 2011 England riots.

I don't want to play the eye-rolley card of invoking further personal experience into this discussion, as if to assert further that "I am right because this is happening in my local area/culture" or something, but I will share something else as to why this occured. My maternal family are 1960s Tamil immigrants, and I have a large amount of cousins (something in the region of 16), and the dynamic is that we behave more like brothers and sisters. They are an extremely diverse bunch; one of my cousins is an Oxford graduate and trained opera singer, another is a stockbroker who has worked in Manhattan and Geneva, but they cover the entire class spectrum. Literally, I have a set of cousins (brothers of each other) who are an underclass; having lost their white mother, they were subsequently ejected by the deceased woman's family from their comfortable suburban home due to some hookey religious beliefs about burning everything that was connected to her. This was in their preteens. With nothing, the father (my uncle) and his two boys (the sister ran off to Kent to live with her maternal grandparents, while the third boy fell off the radar, a much older one from a previous marriage) were forced to move into a council estate. Now, with the two boys now spending their teenage years in an extremely rundown area, they rapidly got sucked into a lifestyle of gangs and drugs. For years, it's still like this. I remember being 8 or 9 and seeing them like this, now I’m 21, and one of them is in prison for aggravated assault.

Speaking to the third brother (far older than the rest) who recently resurfaced, he has “been there, done that” with this whole gang culture, I asked him what he thought was the primary cause for all of this, the gang culture and the lot (this was two years ago). I proposed the idea that it’s nothing but these lot trying to imitate American rap culture; taking for granted that we will never have it as bad as in the US materially speaking. He couldn’t agree more, saying that’s basically all it is. However, in my young life, I have learnt that there is no one cause for anything.

Why IS rap culture to blame? The absent fathers, perhaps. They provide no guidance due to their lack of presence, so the kids latch onto something else. They’re not going to listen to their mothers if they want to be badmen; only a pussyhole listens to his mummy, after all. But why are the fathers absent? A governmental, widespread societal problem? The root cause goes on, and on, and on. There’s so many of it, all interconnected and interlinked, and I’m beginning to feel nothing short of a new world war would be able to significantly uproot modern society and establish a new one.

I would say that black culture has nothing to do with race. The cousins I was referring to in this instance are mixed race (white and Tamil), yet have been sucked into this culture. It is only “black culture” as far as the fact that it is black individuals that “represent” or are “the face” of it all. I’ll be first to point out there are plenty of highly successful, West African families in the UK that are stupendously well-off. Again, maybe it’s the whole idea that the UK has had a strong history of a class divide. Now, in the modern day, add in race and ethnicity into the class divide. It gets further compounded. The government and police will primarily be seen as a “white institution”, staffed by old white men and women. Why would the black rioters listen to them, when they see this white institution as the cause of their problems? After all, personal enterprise can only go so far. Even if these individuals WERE motivated to get jobs and be something, the OPPORTUNITY must be provided by government, and the society. Saying “go get a job” doesn’t stand up when there isn’t actually any available (easy to use that as an excuse, on the other hand).

I feel it doesn’t really matter whether or not their reasoning behind their rioting is valid or not, this is how they FEEL. If you think their feelings are invalid, then it is the job of society to thus, perhaps, educate or guide them into following a more correct path. But society has failed. These kids might be talking utter shit, have absolutely no valid reason as to why they are doing this. Perhaps they’re not educated enough to express their cause? It is undeniable, I reckon, that society has bred individuals that are capable of such an act. Sure, they might be tools, they might be idiots, but who made them idiots?.

[Z.Sinraali]

You did not just cite Wikipedia.

[Seriphyn]

Actually, looks like Wikipedia just cited a BBC article.

Lack of fathers

According to Cristina Odone of the Daily Telegraph, the riots could be traced back to a lack of male role models: "Like the overwhelming majority of youth offenders behind bars, these gang members have one thing in common: no father at home."

"I brought up two boys on my own," says Prof FitzGerald. "Yes, there are some issues about where boys get a positive sense of masculinity from when they don't have anyone in the home to give it. But if you have a stable family set-up then these kids can still be very high-achieving."

[scagga]

If it is a moral problem, does the absence of religion play as a factor?

[Invelious]

If it is a moral problem, does the absence of religion play as a factor?

Yes, yes it does.

[Lyn Farel]

I feel it doesn’t really matter whether or not their reasoning behind their rioting is valid or not, this is how they FEEL. If you think their feelings are invalid, then it is the job of society to thus, perhaps, educate or guide them into following a more correct path. But society has failed. These kids might be talking utter shit, have absolutely no valid reason as to why they are doing this. Perhaps they’re not educated enough to express their cause? It is undeniable, I reckon, that society has bred individuals that are capable of such an act. Sure, they might be tools, they might be idiots, but who made them idiots?.

Exactly.

_______________

Raze, yes, these riots have to be dealt with strenght and decisive justice. But justice is here for that, no need to change it especially for them. Or just change the whole justice system if you consider it does not it job properly. In any case, yes, they must be shown that violence is not to be tolerated. What alarms me is the tendancy people have to resort to statements like "Hell, shoot in the mob, they deserve it". This is just scaring. Use rubber bullets if needed, sure, but be aware of what oil it can add to the fire if someone is killed. Someone killed is going to be considered in a martyrdom way. And you know what its capable of. I have seen and witnessed that. As I said earlier, I totally understand why english authorities are being cautious. Anyway, you do not need that to beat a mob.

Eventually, what has to be corrected is not to be sure these people get severely treated, at the contrary : they must be treated rightly as anyone would, or again, you walk directly on the martyrdom road.


So yes, I can not help but find Kazzzi last words quite obnoxious, and frightening. It is the usual extremist populist propaganda that works well just because it plays on the safety of the people without any consideration for the long-run.

[Victoria Stecker]

The thing is, we have courts for justice. We have police for protection. If cars are being taken and burned and businesses are being robbed and torched, I'd like to know that the police I'm funding with my taxes are going to do their job. Why should I have to suffer (property destroyed, etc) just so that the police can keep the kid gloves on while dealing with the mob?

Oh, and Kazzzo's an ex marine, his view may be slightly colored.

[Raze Valadeus]

I understand what you're saying Lyn, but I would counter-argue that if things like this can happen and justice ISN'T done, then it's clear proof that our "justice system" needs review. You're not making an exception for them, you're learning from your mistakes and making improvements to the system based on experiences.

[Lydia Tishal]

I saw something on CNN this morning that said the police in England did not necessarily have the authority to tell a person to remove their mask if the suspected that person was involved in criminal behavior.

If true, that is utterly insane.

[orange]

If it is a moral problem, does the absence of religion play as a factor?

Yes, yes it does.

I disagree.  It is not necessarily the absence of religion, but rather the absence of a motivator for moral/objective appraisal of a situation and one's actions.

Religion can provide a framework for morality, but can also be abused/ignored by those wanting to commit what their society considers immoral acts.  Logical thought can also provide a framework for morality (depending on the variances in your society's morality, which are likely based on an ancient religion and the society that brought that religion into existence).

However, this leads to a philosophical discussion on whether humans are inherently good or evil, whether codified religion (and the laws associated with it) are necessary to check any inherent evil in humans, and the development of religion in relation to human civilization.  A topic for another thread and likely one that will not result in any of the participants changing their point of view.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I think plenty of research and data can support a claim that a good support structure (be it family, friends, etc.) can positively impact a young adult's direction in life. Environment most certainly plays its part on influencing the behavior and decisions of individuals, including their value system and life goals.