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[Kaleigh Doyle]

I get it. I really do. It just looks and feels like the cops aren't playing on a level field with the rioters, and I'm afraid civilians are going to get hurt because the higher ups are too timid to react appropriately.

[scagga]

I get it. I really do. It just looks and feels like the cops aren't playing on a level field with the rioters, and I'm afraid civilians are going to get hurt because the higher ups are too timid to react appropriately.

Indeed. I am terrified for the welfare of my friends and family living quite close to areas where there have been disturbances.  One of my friends reported looking out their window and seeing groups of feral youths collecting bricks and other items to use as projectiles.

In terms of escalating the counters, I hope it happens sooner...however, escalation isn't a long term solution.  The miscreants can just logoffski and come back when the enforcement fleets are absent. 

My thoughts are that in the longer term, rehabilitation/punishment should entail repairing the damage caused, and seizure of stolen goods.  Take those who destroy property, teach them to repair it, and have them repair it with strict discipline.  At least they will leave with skills they can use to make an honest living.

The full solution is probably far more complicated, and possibly shouldn't be directed by the government but handed to communities to put in place themselves, so that they see that they should not defer all responsibility to the authorities for keeping social order.

[lallara zhuul]

If Thatcher would be the PM at the moment, they all would be dead or in jail by now.

[Bacchanalian]

I think they should make them all a cup of tea.  Surely that'll calm things down.

[Seriphyn]

The only place water cannon trucks can be found is Northern Ireland, and nowhere else on the Great Britain mainland. We do not have a history of using military deployment to curb civil unrest (outside of NI), and no PM will be willing to break a decades-long tradition. Moreover, deploying the military would indicate that the problem has become far more serious, and an international blackmark, as the UK has never done it (again, outside of NI) in recent generations. We have always been a country that is uncomfortable with militarism, even if we're the second leading military power in the West.

Similarly, using rubber bullets or any less-than-lethal technology is something we just don't do; if ONE person dies from it, then it'll only become worse (After all, this was started by a police shooting of a gun criminal). Police do not have any respect from those who are rioting as it is, if they are implicated in killing one of theirs, only more fuel would be added to the fire.

It appears moot now, however. Police deploying 16000 cops (instead of the 6000 of the past few nights) has made things in London relatively peaceful, but not in other cities. Not sure what's going to happen there.

Meanwhile, members of the community coming together to clean up via Facebook and Twitter is inspiring (and correspondents giving morning-after reports in hoodies is morbidly amusing)

[Lyn Farel]

Yes Seriphyn, you are lucky they try not to use rubber bullets, or even tasers and things like that. They did it I don't remember when in my country for far less violence, and it only helped to inflamate everything because people died of it.

Peasants.  A field of peasants (Vaari, 2007)

Omhy you are right. It is the PEASANTSTORM !

So when are they gonna start shooting rubber bullets? People who act like animals aren't gonna disperse with fierce language and rhetoric- they have to learn the hard way, and quite frankly,  all I see in all the videos are cops fleeing from gangs of rioters. It doesn't look very good.

Yeah. Though it will solve the issue on the short-run, it will make it worse on the long-run. I think the english conservatives got what they deserved here, by cutting out in social welfare and charity fundings (or thats what I heard).

[Seriphyn]

Seems like the government has authorized water cannons and rubber bullets "if necessary and withint 24 hours notice". Some valid points by PM Cameron as well I think, IMO.

Another good ad hoc interview with some local kids in Manchester. You can clearly hear how these guys are just foolish, with no agenda, clearly no idea what they're doing.

[Louella Dougans]

A contrast:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7844916.stm & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Outrage

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Yeah, I'm not really buying the notion that we need to be careful not to hurt any more rioters or it'll get worse! mantra, because, to be honest, this doesn't have anything to do with a dead 29 year old anymore. It's about protecting their own citizens and restoring order, and as you can hear on the BBC news, people who depend on the cops to protect them are getting pissed nothing is happening. So the authority has lost the respect of thousands of disenfranchised youths, now they're gonna lose the support of the rest of the population? Might as well pack it up now.

You know, I was going to talk about the socio-economic, political, and cultural factors as a means of justifying the lost generation, because I don't necessarily believe right away what the media tells us that these are just thugs and scumbags. If they ever had a message it got lost when they started burning and looting every store they find because they're trying get back at the 'rich' people.  I dunno, if that ever happened in my city, I think I'd be getting my neighbors together and discourage any of rioters from getting into the area, especially if the cops proved unwilling or unable to protect us.

Hope things get better.

[Kazzzi]

A few of your British paratroopers on the scene, the ones with the Northern Ireland patches, and the problem would be solved.

I understand your points that you feel military involvment would be harsh, but that concept wont comfort the people whos shops and homes are burning.

If your government does not allow you the means to defend yourselves, then they need to deal with the problem as expediently as possible.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

A few of your British paratroopers on the scene, the ones with the Northern Ireland patches, and the problem would be solved.

I understand your points that you feel military involvment would be harsh, but that concept wont comfort the people whos shops and homes are burning.

If your government does not allow you the means to defend yourselves, then they need to deal with the problem as expediently as possible.

Yes well....

The thing is for all the years the military spent in NI, eventually it was negotiated. Para's are for killing people, not for acting as police.

Back in the day colonial police could be quite brutal. Apparently standard practice in places like Hong Kong was to lay a marker across the road, post snipers and read the riot act. If anyone crosses the marker then shooting commences.

Also I seem to recall a certain notorious bit of military riot control during Ghandi's day. Amritsar if memory serves correctly.

The initial tendency in cases like this is to demand that Something Should Be Done. And the initial popularist solution (shoot 'em all, send them to Afghanistan etc) rarely helps matters.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

The same is in Chile btw, all those students protesting about education was summarized in a simple and yet profoundly truthful phrase:

Chile paradise for personal rights, no demands for personal duties.

Therefore all those students clamoring for free education do not take into account nearly all of the schools (or universities for that matter) that are actually free have a 40% or more of their students failing attendance because both parents and kids do not consider it important.

Chile. Lovely country. Very pretty. Visited a friend there a few years back and spent some time around Santiago and down south.

Trouble is in Chile you still have some of Pinochet's crowd still around and in power (as I understand it). The people who thought that killing someone and etching the flesh off their bones with acid was reasonable behaviour. Not to mention lopping off hands for playing a guitar.

[Odelya]

It’s terrible indeed. What makes me a bit angry is that people are now calling to raise the budget for police and welfare programmes. I am not against it as a matter of principle, but the timing couldn’t be worse. It’s both some kind of excuse for what is happening and would be a successful outcome of blackmailing (only that the blackmailer wouldn’t be the rioter, but a political interest group kidnapping the protests). I am especially saddened to see the fate of the elderly people. They’ve gone through the whole shit of the 20th century and now this. They’ve raised a generation and now everything goes into flames. Houellebecq got it all right in his novels. They are more up-to-date than ever.

[Lyn Farel]

A few of your British paratroopers on the scene, the ones with the Northern Ireland patches, and the problem would be solved.

I understand your points that you feel military involvment would be harsh, but that concept wont comfort the people whos shops and homes are burning.

If your government does not allow you the means to defend yourselves, then they need to deal with the problem as expediently as possible.

Yes well....

The thing is for all the years the military spent in NI, eventually it was negotiated. Para's are for killing people, not for acting as police.

Back in the day colonial police could be quite brutal. Apparently standard practice in places like Hong Kong was to lay a marker across the road, post snipers and read the riot act. If anyone crosses the marker then shooting commences.

Also I seem to recall a certain notorious bit of military riot control during Ghandi's day. Amritsar if memory serves correctly.

The initial tendency in cases like this is to demand that Something Should Be Done. And the initial popularist solution (shoot 'em all, send them to Afghanistan etc) rarely helps matters.

This.

English public opinion is following France populist and radical footsteps under Sarkozy (minister of the interior) in 2005 with all the suburbs riots ("use the Kärcher" he said). Same issues, more or less. I sincerely hope they will not do the same mistake.



Edit : medias had a good part in playing on fear and were totally biased on the matter.

[Kazzzi]

In my state, if you are throwing petrol bombs at people's homes, you are temporarily relinquishing your rights to be treated as human and nobody here will cry for you at your funeral when cops or decent law abiding citizens gun you down.

You can either stop the violent offenders in the act with force, or you can put the lotion in the basket when they enter your home.

I give props to Seri for being among the first I've seen who aren't afraid to speak of the influence parts of 'black culture' have played in these tragic events. It takes a certain amount of real life experience to understand this, which evidentally he has from living where he does.