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General Discussion => The Speakeasy: OOG/Off-topic Discussion => Topic started by: Ken on 09 Jun 2011, 10:12
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I'm thinking about building my next gaming machine. Never done it before, so I'm wondering who has experience with constructing their own gaming PC, how much you spent, how long it took, what components you chose and why, where you shopped, what tools you needed, what hiccups could I anticipate, and generally whatever other advice you might have. Please, share your knowledge and advice. :)
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I did this again recently (http://rift.chromebits.net/2011/05/new-eve-desktop-system/). Got everything at Newegg for under a grand (though I didn't need a new monitor). Main tool you need will be a screwdriver; I don't think I needed anything else.
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Hah Casiella, that is the exact case I used for my brother's system. Does the job well and was decently roomy.
Being that I live on the west coast of Canada I get all my parts from NCIX (http://ncix.com/) and about $800CDN will get you a pretty spankin machine, minus monitor and peripherals. If you're putting it together yourself you'll probably want cable ties (http://ncix.com/products/?sku=57927&vpn=43036&manufacture=CABLES%20TO%20GO) (zap straps as I like to call 'em) to keep cables from getting all over the place, in addition to a screwdriver.
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Last time I built a computer was my current desktop two or three years back, so it's perhaps a little dated component-wise, but it does everything I've wanted it to thus far well.
Going from memory, it's the Antec 300 case (the same as Casi's above, incidentally) containing an MSI P55-CD53 motherboard, the Intel i5 750 CPU, nVidia GTX 260 as the GPU, some flavour of Kingston RAM amounting to 4GB and a Western Digital 1TB HDD of some description. Even then, some of the components could have been slightly better, but budget constraints were kinda tight, and as I said, it all continues to work well; if need be, I can go and look up the exact specs of the RAM and HDD, since I sure as hell don't remember them offhand. They all came from eBuyer (http://www.ebuyer.com), but that's a UK-based vendor; I hear good things about Newegg for the States?
I didn't need anything bar a screwdriver in terms of tools, and the assembly didn't take me long, maybe a few hours. Nothing was particularly difficult in terms of putting it all together when I referred to the materials that came with the components for the less self-explanatory bits, and honestly it probably took longer to get Windows 7 installed and online than it did to set the computer itself up -- networks hate me. The main bit of advice that springs to mind is to make sure you've grounded yourself to prevent static charge messing with the components, not shuffling about on carpets in socks or whatever while you're building it and so on.
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I went to one of these non-franchise shops run by a bunch of guys who do it because it's their hobby and passion. Say "I want this made for me, with this budget" and bam.
Cost £1911 for my latest rig, a superquiet case, i7-2600k, 8GB RAM, 2x 580GTX in SLI etc.
If I got it on a brand-made machine like shitty Alienware or HP, would have cost £3000 for slightly less specs (ie. 6GB RAM)
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I built my current machine back in 2004 (!) so I'm well out of date regarding components. But just a few thoughts. . .
- Newegg is your friend. We use them religously at work. Very reliable and best selection and prices to be had. Just bear in mind that there is no tech support. They do have a fairly generous return policy though.
- Mounting the processor to the motherboard is probably the trickest part of the operation. Make sure you buy thermal paste that uses actual silver. If you're not comfortable doing this (I think it's pretty simple these days, actually) you can probably pick up a motherboard with the processor pre-attached.
- Don't neglect your power supply. It's not a flashy part, but this is where most people go wrong. Looking at the wattage rating is not enough. Power supplies have three voltage lines, called "rails", which deliver DC power at 3, 5 and 12 volts. Video cards run on the 12 volt rail and can take a lot of power. Make sure you get a power supply that can deliver enough amperage on its 12 volt rail to support your video card. Some supplies have a second, dedicated 12 V rail for the video card. If you have a monster card or are planning on running two cards at once, look for this. Cable management on a power supply is a God send.
- If you've never done it before, be prepared to spend some time connecting all of the cables to the headers on your motherboard. A lot of the motherboard manuals have been "localized" into English and the headers can be hard to reach unless you have very small hands.
- On cases. . .aluminum is much lighter and will shed heat better. Steel is cheaper and will hold up better. I have had problems cramming high end power supplies and video cards into standard sized cases. I prefer server cases for this reason, but they can get ridiculous. A loaded steel server case is heavy. I love the one I have, but I have a hard time moving it by myself. Bottom mounted power supplies free up a lot of room in the case, but keep a can of compressed air handy and be aware that they tend to hoover up a lot of dust and lint. I don't recommend cases with see-through sides-- the plastic has different expansion characteristics than the metal, and over the years this can lead to rattle problems.
- Check the specs on your memory. My information on this is out of date, but pay attention to the clock speed and latency. Lower latency is better, and there is a relationship between the clock speed on the memory and the FSB speed on the motherboard. I do not remember exactly what that is-- if you don't know, ask someone who does. ECC (error correction code?) is something for servers and is not needed for a gaming machine.
- Keep yourself grounded, especially if you live somewhere with low humidity. I usually try to keep one hand (or bare arm) touching the case to keep from building up a charge. If you are a really zappy person, you can pick up an anti-static wrist band pretty cheap. Try to avoid touching exposed contacts on parts.
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Pretty much what Lydia said.
I have been building my own computers for some time now (because I can usually spare more than 30% of the usual prices offered in large stores/malls, the thing to avoid because their configs are utter crap and not very good price wise). If you have some resellers and small private shops around, you might want to take an eye with them (at your own risks, do not go anywhere blindly, some people are not very trustworthy when it comes to replacement or warranty). Don't know how it is in other countries but the chinese district nearby has incredible prices compared to the rest.
- Choose your case wisely, some of them are maybe more expensive, but they can also offer a damn welcomed ergonomic side with backward storage for all the wiring, or screwless storage racks for hard drives, dvd drives, etc.
- If you are not sure to be able to handle the motherboard/cpu integration (with the delicate thermic paste part of the operation, which is quite easy actually), try to find a seller that also offers to build your config for you. If you want to learn though, if you know someone that knows what he is talking about, then ask him to show you. Or just follow carefully the user guides because eventually, it is not very hard.
- The hard part is actually to know what to buy, and in what order. I usually try to look at first which cpu i want. Depending on the CPU choice will depend the choice of the motherboard (because they are cpu socket specific). Then the motherboard should offer you the last in terms of RAM memory and USB capability, so be sure to look for latest motherboards and not old ones (but if you buy a new CPU and not an outdated one, the motherboard will be in line). Then you have done half of the work (because there is a crapload of manufacturers for motherboards, so I usually go for my favorites : Gygabite or Asus, though I prefer Gigabyte). Choosing between Intel and AMD for the CPU depends on your tastes, mostly. I like Intel because they are currently more advanced in terms of performances, but both are good. The new i3, i5, i7 generation of cpus is a good bet (have an i5 myself). The memory is the tricky part. You can now find quite cheap basic memory that works decently, or go for more powerful memory (and you will feel the difference I guarantee that, if you choose a 2133 MHz DDR3 instead of a basic 1600 MHz one). Both work in any case, depending on your budget. Then, choose your graphic card... ATI or nvidia, the eternal war. I like nvidia (and hate ATI from my own experience), but both are very performant, nvidia maybe a little more expensive but generally less heath and slightly more performant, but I may be wrong. In any case ATI is well known for their good deals/prices.
[spoiler]In more technical details :
- CPU : what is important is the number of cores of course (if you have a 2GHz cpu with 4 cores, it will be 4x 2GHz, depending if the software you use manage this or not). The slot socket standard number is the most important part : it will determine the kind motherboard on which it will actually fit. So you will go for motherboard created for this specific socket when you will come to choose it. Etching -> the lower the better (faster, less heath, more performant), current standard is around 45 nm. CPU cache L1/L2 and L3. Higher the better, it is the processor memory layer acting before the RAM memory. L1/L2 is around 1-2 Mb, a good L3 is around 8Mb.
- Motherboard : what suits you best : look for the number of USB ports, PCI internal slots if you have a lot of PCI cards to insert, PCI express (PCI-e x16) slots for the graphic card (2, 3 or 4 if you are going to put several GCs in). More generally look for all the ports offered by the motherboard and see it it suits you or not. Check if the mother board supports the SATA-3 standard (for hard drives) and USB 3. Better to go for it now, would be a shame to take an outdated model not supporting those (they are awesome). And very important : be sure the motherboard supports DDR3 memory, as you are probably going to buy DDR3 (current standard, DDR2 is outdated).
- Memory : DDR3 i suppose. Goes from around 1600 MHz (PCI 12800) up to 2300-2500 MHz for the best ones (or maybe more who knows...). The best ones are expensive. Be sure to take at least 4Gb of it (more is advised, like 6Gb, but 4 is totally ok.. 2 is too short though). CAS latency (CL) is a little advanced and specific, but if you are into it... it basically means the lower the faster. You will get 4 numbers (like 9-9-9-24). But anyway, this is what can make a little difference between 2 identical memory racks : some are more suited to AMD sockets, and somre are specifically designed for Intel sockets. Corsair or G-Skills are good brands imo. I always use G-Skill personnally, very nice memories.
- Graphic Card : check the output ports (DVI, HDMI, etc). The frequency is not very important. Best way to go for a model is to browse benchmarks on the internet between several models (ATI and nvidia), check different sites, different games, then see if they are worth their price or not. Manufacturers side : Zotac, Asus, Gigabyte, Twintech are good for nvidia ; Asus, Sapphire for ATI mostly if Im right.
- CPU fan and radiator : Totally optionnal as this is usually sold with the cpu, but the one sold with the cpu is usually pretty basic and noisy. You might want to get a better one (more durable, the basic ones tend to stop suddenly to work after one or 2 years, happened to me several times). Anyway Noctua is a very good brand (very, very silent).
- Hardrives : take SATA-3, its the current standard (and fucking fast with Sata 3 compatible motherboards, like 60Mb/s at peak on transfers). DO NOT TAKE GENERIC stuff, period. Hardrives also tend to fail after 3 or 5 years of use anyway, so if you already have some but old, maybe it is time to be cautious (or use save drives somewhere).
- Power supply : pretty much what Lydia said. The power must be sufficient to handle the GC (above 500W now for the good GCs). Check how many connectors you have available too (might be a little annoying if you can't power everything in your new shiney computer). Note that there is also a totally new kind of power supplies that is TOTALLY AWESOME : modulable power supplies -> on standard ones the supply cables are fixed on them, but here you actually have cable slots and can choose which cables you plug, and this has 2 major advantages : more versatile, and also not a fuckfest of scrambled cables everywhere. There is also another thing that is quite handy : the 80+ certification, meaning that the power supply will only consume less than 20% of its maximum consumption if it is running under 80% of its performance, which is very appreciable (and green).
Im not going for the rest of the little stuff around (dvd drives, burners, etc), not very important, take what you like. Sorry for the wall of text. Hope it helps.[/spoiler]
Rule number 1 : always decide of EVERYTHING before going to buy.
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NO! I did this. I fucked up somehow. My rig crashes at random intervals. I don't know why. I thought I knew what I was doing, but it appears I did not. It's an awesome rig, but the random crashing blows chunks.
Of course, I am drunk right now and saying ALL SORTS of crazy stuff. But still, I fucked up on building my own. Only do it if you know what you're doing (not just think you know. I thought I knew and screwed up.)
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Building your own is easy if you get help the first time (which you're doing).
I stopped doing that, though, when it turns out I don't really save any real money doing it.
There's a ton of places where you can custom order a computer you've chosen all components for, and they'll build it for you.
Usually gets you a warranty and support deal at the same time, which home-built doesn't.
Then again, I just ordered an Alienware m17x r3 laptop, so I don't get to talk about saving money.
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Usually gets you a warranty and support deal at the same time, which home-built doesn't.
Depends, every piece you buy actually has a warranty too. Not always as long as a full built computer (depends of the piece, RAM or CPUs are up to 3 years warranty while CGs are up to 1 year warranty). I usually have a small warranty from the reseller (the first 2 weeks for a change if something does not work properly or if you are not satisfied, then usually 6 months for the true warranty). Then you have to send back the component to the manufacturer to use their warranty.
Maybe it varies depending on the country (especially for the resellers), but I doubt it in the case of the international manufacturers.
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Oh, there's a bit of a warranty, sure. Support goes out the window though.
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Thanks for all the tips and input so far. I really appreciate the help and advice. The cost of the project is really no object for me, but I still want to get top of the line components without massively overpaying for only a small amount of extra performance. Case weight and dexterity for assembly aren't really concern either. So starting with cases, I want to have plenty of room for expansion and air flow and am looking at something full sized like the Antec 1200 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129100&Tpk=Antec%20Twelve%20Hundred%20V3%20Black%20Steel%20ATX%20Full%20Tower). The DF-85 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129087), which is apparently based on it, looks nice but I'm not sure if I'll really need the additional features. I'm looking at the Intel i7 processors for a CPU and like the price to power the i7-960 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115224) seems to offer, probably putting a Gigabyte motherboard like this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128423) underneath it with a 750 or 850W PSU.
Some follow up questions:
How hard is setting up two GPUs with SLI?
And how about putting two HDDs in a RAID 1 config?
How about sound cards and network devices?
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The only thing you need for SLI is two cards of the same model and an SLI bridge (which comes with just about every card), and it simply snaps between the top of the two cards once they're seated. I'd suggest mid-range models for these, because if you research the benchmarks there's typically more bang for your buck if you put two cards under $300/ea. together. Two 560 Ti cards is a popular setup for this right now, because the next step up (two 570s) will add $200.
I'm an audiophile and can't stand integrated audio. I also wouldn't recommend Creative for their software is dreadful. Go with Asus; their software is bad but not nearly as bad. You can get anything in their Xonar lineup; since I care about SNR I have a DX, but the DS is only $50.
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These are the components I'm looking at currently:
Case: Antec Twelve Hundred V3 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129100)
PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-850TX 850W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139009)
Board: GIGABYTE GA-X58A-UD3R LGA 1366 Intel X58 SATA 6Gb/s (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128423)
CPU: Intel Core i7-960 Bloomfield 3.2GHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115224)
HDD: 2x Seagate Barracuda 1.5TB 5900 RPM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148725) in RAID 1
RAM: CORSAIR Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139009)
GPU: 2x MSI N460GTX CYCLONE 1GD5/OC GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi) 1GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127510) in SLI
Audio: ASUS Xonar D1 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132007)
Net: Intel PWLA8391GT 10/ 100/ 1000Mbps PCI PRO
OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 64-bit
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If you haven't already, be sure to add up the power draws. 850W feels low to me these days, especially if you're driving 2x GPUs, 2x HDs, and an i7.
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The only thing you need for SLI is two cards of the same model and an SLI bridge (which comes with just about every card), and it simply snaps between the top of the two cards once they're seated.
Do you know if ATIs require that it be the same model as well? I purchased one with the intent to get a second when the price dropped a bit. It seems that rather than allowing the price to drop, manufacturers simply discontinue the model, as has now happened. I'm am a dozen different kinds of pissed, though I may be less so if it's possible for me to link cards that are similar without being identical.
Rawr.
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ATI do "Crossfire" or something, but most cards come with the necessary stuff included I think...?
Also, not sure about those GTX460s. I think they are dated with the arrival of 500 series of GeForce.
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If you haven't already, be sure to add up the power draws. 850W feels low to me these days, especially if you're driving 2x GPUs, 2x HDs, and an i7.
Ooh, right! Yes. If I'm looking at the right data, the CPU and GPUs would pull 450 normally. The HDDs I'm looking at are a high efficiency sort and the manufacturer says only ~6W operating draw for each. But really, 850W is low these days?
Also, not sure about those GTX460s. I think they are dated with the arrival of 500 series of GeForce.
They're a year old-ish, yes, but are happily only 200USD a pop. And they look like a transformer.
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I put a full 1kW power supply in both of my systems.
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850W is more than safe for that setup. Actual power use won't be more than 600W. But yes, you should always do the math. (http://www.antec.outervision.com/PSUEngine)
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The wattage rating isn't the important stat. Look at the amperage ratings for each of the rails. The 12 volt rail is the most important. My feeling is that the 70 amps (12 V) on that supply is pushing it for an SLI config. My current card draws about 30 amps by itself. Even if you slide under the threshold, a sudden power spike to your graphics cards can cause problems for the other 12 V stuff in your system. As others have already said, I would look at a 1000 watt supply, especially one with a second 12 volt rail.
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These are the components I'm looking at currently:
Case: Antec Twelve Hundred V3 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129100)
PSU: CORSAIR CMPSU-850TX 850W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139009)
Board: GIGABYTE GA-X58A-UD3R LGA 1366 Intel X58 SATA 6Gb/s (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128423)
CPU: Intel Core i7-960 Bloomfield 3.2GHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115224)
HDD: 2x Seagate Barracuda 1.5TB 5900 RPM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148725) in RAID 1
RAM: CORSAIR Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139009)
GPU: 2x MSI N460GTX CYCLONE 1GD5/OC GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi) 1GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127510) in SLI
Audio: ASUS Xonar D1 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132007)
Net: Intel PWLA8391GT 10/ 100/ 1000Mbps PCI PRO
OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional SP1 64-bit
My thoughts on this :
Looks like a good config.
No need for audio cards imo, integrated ones are perfectly fine. It sonds to me very unlikely to get a difference of quality because we are running on digital systems, so either your sound is 100% good, either it is null (its binary). The quality of the sounds depends on the quality of the encoding put on the sound files themselves, and your speakers/cables ofc. I only use an external audio interface because im running on specific audio equipement (professional monitoring speakers that are self amplified and using RCA coaxial polarized cables -> this shit is totally awesome btw and less scammish than the usual audio stuff). Other than that if you are using composite red/white cables or jack cables yo uwill be perfectly fine with your motherboard. But heh, maybe Im wrong, though I don't think there is a difference here. Motherboards integrated audio stuff is actually quite good as you also have now 5.1 or 7.1 and optical audio ports.
HDD : too slow. 5900 rpm is cheapest, but I would at least recommend 7200 rpm.
850W power supply looks definitly enough for your config. Its a lot even nowadays. But if you want moar... why not.
I can't check your RAM memory, seems that your link points to the power supply. Should be good, corsair is good. Check the frequency, 1600 MHz is slowest (but still good). If you want faster RAM, go for it, it may be worth it.
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If I may, I am going to do a slight thread hijack. My birthday is upcoming in a few months, and since as usual I don't know what to ask, I've been considering maybe updating parts of my current rig. Thing is, for an IT graduate, my knowledge of hardware sucks. I've gotten the basics, understand how my hardware works, can puzzle the pieces together, but that's where I strand, basically. So, questions:
1) Should I consider replacing things already? I bought my setup two years ago, and in the past I have just ran 4/5 years with a setup until basically I was forced to run games below medium graphics. I don't feel a direct need to play games on maximum settings, but when performance starts to suffer, especially in multiplayer environments, I get sad. I hate hardware holding my performance back.
2) How do you go about identifying what parts of your PC are the bottleneck? I understand graphics performance is mostly GPU, but CPU and disk speed can also contribute to it, right?
3) What tweaks not including overheating (that shit scares me, had a PSU burn out due to old age, no thank you melted hardware o_o) would you consider "mandatory"? I have diskeeper to keep my drive happy, kill everything that doesn't need to go on at startup, remove unused software and run CCcleaner to get rid of junk and clean the registry.
4) I am currently on Windows Vista. I hear Windows 7 is a lot more stable / user friendly. Should I consider upgrading? Any known performance gains in doing that?
5) What are good places to start educating myself on hardware? I assume following news sites is the way to go. What do people have in their daily / weekly reads for this?
6) That PhysX card which I basically got free with my rig, how much of a difference does that make? More and more games use a PhysX engine, but I won't gain performance unless the developers work with nVidia for it, right?
As last, here is a quick overview of my current rig. Worthwhile to know is probably that I ordered this from Dell as an XPS 630i, currently no modifications have been made, although they did replace my graphics card as the old one broke down within the warranty period.
Case: Dell XPS 630i case
PSU: Unknown, 750W
Board / Chipset: Dell / nVidea nForce 650i SLI
CPU: Quad Intel Core 2 Q9300 3.50GHz
HDD: Hitachi HDS721075KLA SCSI 700GB / 7200 RPM
RAM: Samsung 4x DIMM DDR2 1GB (2x 400MHz)
GPU: 2x nVidia GeForce 9800 GX2 in SLI + AGEIA PhysX 100 series PCI Express Card
Audio: Creative SB X-FI
Net: nVidia nForce Network Controller
OS: Windows Vista Home Premium Service Pack 2 32 bit
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I can't answer all your questions but W7 is definitely better than Vista. In fact, I love it, and think it's fantastic. You should definitely consider upgrading to that. I can say you might want to consider upgrading to 8GB RAM, as well as your GPU (GeForce 9 series is outdated), but I'm sure more experienced folks can put you on the right course for that. I also noticed you got yourself a Dell XPS; in future, when you consider buying a new rig altogether, I would avoid brands altogether...for example...my rig...
Intel Core i7-2600K @ 3.40ghz
ASUS P8P67 Pro
8GB RAM @ 1600mhz
2x nVidia 580GTX in SLI
Creative gaming X-Fi soundcard
Windows 7 Home Premium
1TB HDD and BD-RE
All of that cost £1911. Meanwhile, the most expensive Alienware (Area 51 ALX) costs £2399 with a processor from Oct 2009, 6GB RAM and an inferior pair of graphics card. Trying to match the above computer via Alienware's customization options put it in excess of £3000. Suffice to say, either build a computer by yourself or get a custom shop to do it \o/
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As much as I dislike Windows overall, Win7 >> Vista many times over.
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Technically, putting gaming rigs together is one of the services in my job description, and is one of my favourite things in the entire world. I usualy only get to do it for myself, however, because most gamers know enough about PCs that they don't need to call in a technician to put together a rig.
Mine's pretty fucking pimp, though.
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@ Myrhial :
1) Depends of your budget, whims, personnal tolerance for performance and good graphics, etc. I usually change my GPUs at least every 2 year, or even 1,5 year sometimes. Its evolving fucking fast and getting outdated very fast too. Generally you can keep your motherboard / cpu at least twice that time before it starts to get a little old. Changed mine recently, the previous ones were almost 6 year old (core 2 duo, etc).
2) For games, always GPU. GPU is primary. Then CPU. You just need a decent one to handle the most recent games : games need a lot of calculations, depending on the game, but it really becomes a limitation when your cpu is a little old. RAM memory is important too. Was running on 2Gb RAM before changing my core config recently and noticed that I was able to handle Starcraft 2 pretty good with max details with my new GPU card, but after a little time the game started to get "heavy" on loadings, overwhelmed by the limitations of my memory (in size mostly). 4Gb now is mandatory. 6Gb for confort regarding the future. 8Gb is useless (unless you run a crapload of hungry stuff at the same time), when we will come to that standard, you will probably be running on future new RAM technologies, and not the current one you will buy now. The quality/speed of the RAM is also something nice, but not mandatory (you can definitly buy the slowest, size is the most important, not speed). Though it will help in loading times and general performance, in particular. Also note that heavy super high quality textures in some games are directly linked to the RAM because basically, all the 3D assets are loaded and stocked here when playing to something.
3) Not a lot of things. Can't even think to something I use, except maybe sometimes some stuff furnished with the motherboard (motherboard utilities).
4) Vista is crappy. Seven is imo the first decent windows, quite nice actually (but still a windows). Very more stable indeed, and very less hungry in performance.
5) Dunno. I did it by starting to build my own rigs with my father when I was 14 (asking a new motherboard for christmas for example and watching/helping to insert it). Then I had the help of a friend buying and building rigs for people when I wanted to build my own new shiney one. He accompanied me to the various shops to buy the stuff, after having looked on the internet what to take and where. Then I did it regularily for myself and because I already knew the basics, I learnt it pretty fast. It is not really hard and quite fast to get used to. Though each time I want to do that, I need to recheck the new technologies and what is going on in this little world to get updated.
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Any thoughts on using an SSD to store the OS and a traditional HDD for data? Is it a good idea/worth it and would it be a hard thing to configure?
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Any thoughts on using an SSD to store the OS and a traditional HDD for data? Is it a good idea/worth it and would it be a hard thing to configure?
If you want to do this, get a small SSD. Unless you're a hard drive thrashing whore like me (read: uncompressed audio/video), system software is all SSD is good for at the moment.
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1) Should I consider replacing things already? I bought my setup two years ago, and in the past I have just ran 4/5 years with a setup until basically I was forced to run games below medium graphics. I don't feel a direct need to play games on maximum settings, but when performance starts to suffer, especially in multiplayer environments, I get sad. I hate hardware holding my performance back.
Based on your current hardware? Yap. It's probably a good time to buy a new mainboard, as the new chipsets from Intel and AMD have been released. The only thing I don't know is whether Ivy Bridge (22nm Intel) will use the same socket. I know AMD plans to use AM3+ for a while.
2) How do you go about identifying what parts of your PC are the bottleneck? I understand graphics performance is mostly GPU, but CPU and disk speed can also contribute to it, right?
Some benchmarking software will do this for you, but I'm not aware of specifics. I just look at hardware trends. For the gamer your main bottlenecks will be GPU and RAM so long as your CPU is moderately fast.
3) What tweaks not including overheating (that shit scares me, had a PSU burn out due to old age, no thank you melted hardware o_o) would you consider "mandatory"? I have diskeeper to keep my drive happy, kill everything that doesn't need to go on at startup, remove unused software and run CCcleaner to get rid of junk and clean the registry.
Disable Windows Search indexing service for performance purposes:
1) Run services.msc
2) Find the service "Windows Search"
3) Stop the service
4) Right-click to Properties and change Startup type to Disabled
5) Indexing should be disabled immediately
Disable SuperFetch memory caching for performance purposes in memory hogging applications:
1) Run services.msc
2) Find the service "SuperFetch"
3) Stop the service
4) Right-click to Properties and change Startup type to Disabled
5) On next reboot SuperFetch will be fully disabled
Manual registry tweak for SuperFetch/Prefetch
Open regedit.exe through the start menu search or run box and browse down to the following key:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\
Session Manager\Memory Management\PrefetchParameters
Find the EnablePrefetcher key on the right-hand pane, and change the value to one of these:
* Disable Caching: 0
* Cache Application Launching Only: 1
* Cache Boot Files Only: 2
* Cache Everything (default): 3
You'll have to restart your computer before this takes any effect. You could consider clearing out the \Windows\Prefetch folder after making this change to start with a fresh cache, but keep in mind that the next boot will probably be slower since Windows will have to cache everything again.
4) I am currently on Windows Vista. I hear Windows 7 is a lot more stable / user friendly. Should I consider upgrading? Any known performance gains in doing that?
W7 is more stable, more use friendly (to experienced users), and has a smaller RAM footprint. Definitely upgrade. My preferred version is Pro.
5) What are good places to start educating myself on hardware? I assume following news sites is the way to go. What do people have in their daily / weekly reads for this?
www.anandtech.com
www.theinquirer.net
www.fudzilla.com (nVidia biased)
www.semiaccurate.com (AMD biased)
6) That PhysX card which I basically got free with my rig, how much of a difference does that make? More and more games use a PhysX engine, but I won't gain performance unless the developers work with nVidia for it, right?
PhysX recently went to SSE for CPU simulation (thank god), but it is still nice to have a cheap nVidia GPU in your system. There are some hacks that can be found for getting AMD and nVidia PhysX drivers to work together. But if you're only worried about cloth simulation (Incarna), you can go with AMD no problem. The really GPU-intensive stuff includes particle effects and multi-body mesh collision.
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Doing a little more digging here. . .and I can't find the power requirements for that MSI card. It's been a while since I went looking, but that's a little odd, isn't it?
Here's a link to an eVGA card with the power requirements listed under the details tab.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130587
For reference, that card wants "Minimum of a 600 Watt power supply. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 42 Amps.) " Good luck getting 42 amps on a 12 V rail on a run-of-the-mill 600 W supply. You really have to be careful, the wattage rating is just an average across all three (or four) rails, and doesn't adequately reflect what's going on in the supply. 42 amps, good God I thought 30 was bad. And that's just one card!
The thing with power supplies, is that when they die they die messy. We hooked a Geforce 8800 GTX card up to a supply that exceeded the recommended wattage rating at my house, but we didn't know to check the rails. It worked for about a year. Then one day, FFFZZZZZZZTT, the machine green screened and the internal speaker on the mainboard started screaming. Blew out the supply and the onboard network chip. We got lucky nothing else burned out. But sometimes this doesn't happen-- sometimes things just start to get weird as the supply gets overworked and silently starts damaging random components.
I would recommend something like the following-- at least look at the output ratings on the details tab to see what I'm talking about. I have a feeling that MSI card isn't *too* bad on power, but if you think you might go crazy and buy a pair of monster cards at some point in the future, you might even look at one of the 1200 watt models.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153118
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153053
(And if someone can remind me how to embed links into text, I'd appreciate it. :oops: )
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Doing a little more digging here. . .and I can't find the power requirements for that MSI card. It's been a while since I went looking, but that's a little odd, isn't it?
...
I would recommend something like the following-- at least look at the output ratings on the details tab to see what I'm talking about. I have a feeling that MSI card isn't *too* bad on power, but if you think you might go crazy and buy a pair of monster cards at some point in the future, you might even look at one of the 1200 watt models.
Below I've linked a review of that card that gives a "subjective obtained GPU power consumption" of 170W.
Okay, looking at something a bit higher up the ladder now. Should have plenty of oomph for upgrading to bigger GPUs down the line. This is where I'm at on my loadout:
Case: NZXT Phantom (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146073)
PSU: Antec High Current Pro 1200W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371043)
Board: EVGA X58 FTW3 Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188066)
CPU: Intel Core i7-960 Bloomfield 3.2GHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115224) w/ ZALMAN CNPS9900MAX-R 135mm CPU Cooler (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118075)
GPU: 2x MSI N460GTX CYCLONE GeForce GTX 460 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127510) - Review (http://www.guru3d.com/article/msi-geforce-gtx-460-cyclone-oc-1024-review/)
RAM: CORSAIR Vengeance 12GB DDR3 1600 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233146)
HDD: 2x Western Digital RE4 500GB 7200 RPM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136697)
So, any experience with triple monitor setups? I don't think I'd have any issues running three screens on two of these GTX460s.
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GPU is primary.
POINT!
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GPU is primary.
POINT!
duh :lol:
WEB HIM WEB THE FUCKER DAMNIT HE IS GONNA ESCAPE
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/me points and webs the gate.
This is important...
...
Seriously, can't have the gate suddenly rush off.
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If it's of value, and mostly because I'm fairly ecstatic about it, the build I've just finished with yesterday looks like this:
Gigabyte G1.Guerrilla Intel X58 LGA1366 MB
Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64Bit DVD OEM
Intel Core i7-960 3.2Ghz 8M LGA1366 CPU
Corsair Vengeance 24GB PC12800 DDR3 1600MHz 6x4GB
EVGA GeForce GTX 580 FTW Hydro Copper2 1536MB
Cooler Master Silent Pro M1000 1000w Power Supply
Cooler Master HAF 932 Full Tower Black Case
Cooled with:
EK Supreme HF Universal CPU Liquid Cooling Block w/ Easy Mount Kit - Rev 2 - Full Copper
Swiftech MCP655™ 12v Water Pump w/ Speed Control
Feser Tube Active UV Hose - 1/2" ID (3/4"OD) Anti-Kink Tubing (Acid Green)
Black Ice GTX Xtreme 240 Radiator - Black
EK Dual Bay SPIN Reservoir w/ Flow Meter - Acetal
Primochill 1/2" UV Reactive Leakproof T Fitting - UV Brite Green
PrimoChill Anti-Kink Coils - 3/4 OD" Tubing - UV Brite Green
SilenX 120x120x38mm - 14dBA - 60CFM iXtrema Pro Fan (IXP-76-14)
Monitored by:
Aquacomputer Aquaero 5 XT USB Fan Controller / Touch Screen / Graghic LCD / Liquid System Controller
(http://www.drkint.net/images/P6130008.JPG)
This is not the overkill you were seeking.
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:eek:
My god... it's full of toobs.
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Blech you smoke Pall Malls :eek: Belmonts ftw.
Nice looking rig though, that's a beauty of a mobo.
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Ok, thanks for the replies people. I'll go and prepare stuff for an upgrade to Windows 7.
I was a little worried about the upgrading RAM thing, but then I saw that there are sticks of 2 GB each, am I right in thinking that with four slots buying 3 sticks now for 6GB and then later on putting in another for 8GB is a good plan? May go 8 right away if I see a good deal somewhere though.
As for GPU, afaik these were some of the last ones before they switched to the new version numbering. Will need to do some homework here, I don't like to buy something now then two weeks later see the price drop by a lot because something new just released and I didn't know about it. I'm still not sure if I am fully happy with SLI, but then again driver support seems to have gotten better there. It just really sucked in the past when a game didn't support SLI and would happily just run on one card (looking at you there WoW). But it seems those days are mostly over now and SLI works fine and dandy?
For the motherboard, is there generally a way to know if I put on new RAM / GPU that it will not hold back performance because it may not be able to go as fast, somehow? And do chipset upgrades really give better performance by themselves? I mean bigger / faster IO, I can see it being an upgrade, but then again I also think I recall learning in school that these days the difference is very small? Or am I thinking of something else now.
Windows Search was already nuked, Superfetch however wasn't. Will have to remember to do this all again on Windows 7, heh.
Links are in Google Reader, I'm also going to have to freshen up my basic hardware knowledge again before I go and tinker with new parts. I'm sure it will come back to me again, just so out of practice /o\
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A 1366 board will use ram sticks in 3's. 1156 uses sticks in pairs. Given that you've said there are four slots, I'm assuming an 1156-based board. On a personal level, I'd likely put in two sticks of four and see how 8 travels with you, unless you simply want to fill the board slots in one go. I'm told that 12gb is fairly sufficient for any use as the Win7 image unpacks into about 3gb running. I'm seeing 4 personally, but I've not bothered with optimizing at all at present.
RAM/GPU, and this goes for anything that needs to traverse a physical interface, will always slow down processing when compared with something inside the CPU. It's just a question of how much. PCI-e describes the interface speed so nothing to fret over there. Memory can be a slow-down issue but I've tended to find that it's more a question of amount of ram, as compared to speed of ram. (more ram = more cache = less paging).
580 is the current top-end (590 is a factory overclocked 580 afaik) and is the natural pair for the 58X motherboard. Pricey though currently (bleeding edge describes your wallet, not performance). If you want a bit of upgrade insurance though, it's the way to go. 480s/580s in SLI is fairly heat-intensive though, so make sure to get a nice case with good flow, or water-cool. (I mention this to frighten you, not to encourage you to go through the two-week headache I just did). Water-cooling is expensive and a royal pain to do.
Chipset upgrades these days have more to do with micro-code optimizations between procedures handled by the cpu and those handled by the GPU, performance gains are marginal, meaning that the bigger the margin of upgrade, the bigger the performance boost you'll notice. By way of personal example, my upgrade was from Pentium D-based to i7. I noticed it a lot. If I'd had a dual core, I may not have noticed it to the same level.
On the whole, if you're playing something that really dogs your hardware (like Crysis 2, for instance), you'll notice underpowered hardware lags and poor quality in video. If you're just playing Eve, you'll be able to turn on all the shiney graphics and still be locked into 60 fps (unless you un-restrain the wait intervals)
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Case: NZXT Phantom (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146073)
PSU: Antec High Current Pro 1200W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371043)
Board: EVGA X58 FTW3 Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188066)
CPU: Intel Core i7-960 Bloomfield 3.2GHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115224) w/ ZALMAN CNPS9900MAX-R 135mm CPU Cooler (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118075)
GPU: 2x MSI N460GTX CYCLONE GeForce GTX 460 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127510) - Review (http://www.guru3d.com/article/msi-geforce-gtx-460-cyclone-oc-1024-review/)
RAM: CORSAIR Vengeance 12GB DDR3 1600 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233146)
HDD: 2x Western Digital RE4 500GB 7200 RPM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136697)
Assembled this last night. Probably took forever compared to a more experienced builder, but everything came up and the system simply rocks. My anecdotal benchmark is blowing the shit out of several large structures in Red Faction: Guerrilla, and this thing handled it at max effects settings and 1920x1080 resolution without dipping below 30 fps. On top of that it's rather quiet. My only issue for the build was the stock placement of two fans in the NZXT case on the side (the rear and top fans are fine). Where they sit, they basically rub right next to the HDD slots and it requires either godlike cable management (I'm not there yet) or relocating the fans. They're modular, however, and I'll probably move one to the front and leave the other off.
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Out of curiosity, any issues with EVE CQ?
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Out of curiosity, any issues with EVE CQ?
That would require me to install the client... >.>
[spoiler]No, no fan speed spikes or insane heat, but I was only in the CQ for ~20-30 seconds.[/spoiler]
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Case: NZXT Phantom (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146073)
PSU: Antec High Current Pro 1200W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371043)
Board: EVGA X58 FTW3 Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813188066)
CPU: Intel Core i7-960 Bloomfield 3.2GHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115224) w/ ZALMAN CNPS9900MAX-R 135mm CPU Cooler (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118075)
GPU: 2x MSI N460GTX CYCLONE GeForce GTX 460 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127510) - Review (http://www.guru3d.com/article/msi-geforce-gtx-460-cyclone-oc-1024-review/)
RAM: CORSAIR Vengeance 12GB DDR3 1600 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233146)
HDD: 2x Western Digital RE4 500GB 7200 RPM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136697)
Assembled this last night. Probably took forever compared to a more experienced builder, but everything came up and the system simply rocks. My anecdotal benchmark is blowing the shit out of several large structures in Red Faction: Guerrilla, and this thing handled it at max effects settings and 1920x1080 resolution without dipping below 30 fps. On top of that it's rather quiet. My only issue for the build was the stock placement of two fans in the NZXT case on the side (the rear and top fans are fine). Where they sit, they basically rub right next to the HDD slots and it requires either godlike cable management (I'm not there yet) or relocating the fans. They're modular, however, and I'll probably move one to the front and leave the other off.
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4369/blackgq.png)
[spoiler]If you can, please try going into a LADAR site with gas clouds, or any mission deadspace that has a lot of dense clouds. I noticed that my in-space performance is generally the same, but clouds now absolutely crash my framerate through the floor. I'm curious to see how yours handles up.[/spoiler]
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Took forever you say ? Well even if I am used to it, building a rig from scratch usually takes me more than 4 hours. Even more sometimes.
Eve particules systems like clouds are crap (plus they are ugly), I experience the same severe FPS drop even with my new GPU. Happens with high resolutions (1920x1200).