Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 20 Mar 2011, 18:26
-
I've been doing the Gallente Epic Arc and been paying attention more to the fiction and storyline provided. Now, I haven't done the other epic arcs, but it is likely the darkest of them all. In it, you have prostitution, child labour, and a hinted-at combination of the two.
Here's some of the quotes you hear flying to various venues at "The Underground Circus"
Overheard from Bloodsport Arena: "Let me look at that tiger over there. How easy are they to tie up?"
Overheard from Gallente Outpost: "I can’t believe how much ISK you’re asking for that. Are you sure she’s a virgin?"
Overheard from Pleasure Hub:"The best part about this circus is all the exotic things you meet, and all the wonderful things you can screw."
Overheard from Casino: "I’ll get the money to you tomorrow. I swear I’m good for it. Please, let me see my daughter again."
Overheard from Pleasure Hub: "What happens in the circus, stays in the circus. Let me happen to you."
Last one's pretty funny. Anyway, I chose a different mission this time around, centered around finding clues in a child labour factory about the kidnapping of Justin Beiber a Senator's son popular amongst the 12-16 female demographic. Once you destroy the first group, there is an impressive set of chain reaction explosions...
“We lost another hub. The charges were not stored properly, and a chain reaction got to the ignition core. Do you have any idea how much money that cost us?”
“Try to be more subtle with your ‘accidents’ next time, Azoen. It’s expensive to replace these kids.”
I found that pretty tasteless, but then again I'm easily offended in the realm of kid-killing, and have infinite tolerance for any other form of violence. What do people think?
-
I think it fits the setting. Think about the Chronicles and some of the other missions, and you have some fairly dark stuff.
-
There's well written evil and then there's just throwing horrible things out there for shock value. What offends me isn't kid-killing, sex slavery, human trafficking, or any of the other horrible things we human animals tend do to one another. What offends me is, once a writer has made the decision to handle one of those topics in a project, their doing so in a tasteless or even casual manner. And, imo, there is virtually no way to appropriately handle really grave things like that in a few sentences in the middle of a mission. I'm with Seri on this case, but object primarily to the form and presentation, not necessarily the content.
-
Well...ok. I dunno about anyone else, but what disturbs me most is:
:arrow: "Evil" can only be respected when written in a manner that clearly displays the author's personal distaste and respect for the sensitivity of "tough" topics like child slavery, murder, and prostitution. Nevermind the fact that genocide/mass murder is a daily occurance in New Eden, when a child dies the boundaries of civility and taste are torn asunder!
:arrow: Earth, circa 2011 A.D., sees child exploitation and brutality on a daily basis in some parts of the world, yet when depicted in a 'dark' future with the same 'real' themes, the authors are assumed to be 'trying too hard' to make their world 'dark and gritty'. Maturity lies in understanding these situations happen in the real world, not to get confrontational when they are presented in our fantasy universe where we don't like uncomfortable subjects tossed under our noses. You can't ask for 'realism' in your roleplay and then get upset when it breaches unpleasant areas.
:arrow: Making assumptions that the author is 'just throwing horrible things out there for shock value' and 'trying too hard' are as bad as making judgements about the motivations of other players and the subjects they choose to roleplay about. Timmy only roleplays an amarrian slaver because he likes to violate children! Johnny is being racist because he makes his minmatar talk like a jamaican accent! I can tolerate other people's sensibilities when it comes to topics, because different subjects affect different people in all sorts of ways, but when we start drawing lines that don't exist simply because they don't fit our rationale is an illogical path to follow.
Those are just some of my observations.
-
Pfft.
Get over it.
-
Grimdark setting, best setting.
Turn it up to 11, says I.
-
Grimdark away, and although this isn't a terrible case, it's no excuse to just have, for example, random, OTT, overly-explicit and completely unnecessary fictional descriptions of murder/rape/whatever.
It just becomes cheap.
-
Seriphyn and Ken, what would you consider an appropriate way to handle those themes in the game? Or should they just stay totally off-limits?
-
:arrow: "Evil" can only be respected when written in a manner that clearly displays the author's personal distaste and respect for the sensitivity of "tough" topics like child slavery, murder, and prostitution. Nevermind the fact that genocide/mass murder is a daily occurance in New Eden, when a child dies the boundaries of civility and taste are torn asunder!
The author does not have be preachy or include an instructive moral message in order to depict people doing morally objectionable things in a way that is tasteful.
:arrow: Earth, circa 2011 A.D., sees child exploitation and brutality on a daily basis in some parts of the world, yet when depicted in a 'dark' future with the same 'real' themes, the authors are assumed to be 'trying too hard' to make their world 'dark and gritty'. Maturity lies in understanding these situations happen in the real world, not to get confrontational when they are presented in our fantasy universe where we don't like uncomfortable subjects tossed under our noses. You can't ask for 'realism' in your roleplay and then get upset when it breaches unpleasant areas.
I believe it is possible to depict uncomfortable subjects in a meaningful, realistic, and valuable way that adds something to a story (see Silence of the Lambs, Boys Don't Cry, Schindler's List, the airport level in CoD:MW2, etc.). I believe it is also possible to depict them in an off-hand, unrefined, and noncontextualized way that renders the experience valueless (see any number of exploitation films, Manhunt, Japan's rape games, etc.). Both styles can be realistic, and while granting that either is able to achieve realism and many consumers (myself included) favor realistic media, it does not follow that one "can't" object if the experience is ultimately deemed unpleasant.
:arrow: Making assumptions that the author is 'just throwing horrible things out there for shock value' and 'trying too hard' are as bad as making judgements about the motivations of other players and the subjects they choose to roleplay about. Timmy only roleplays an amarrian slaver because he likes to violate children! Johnny is being racist because he makes his minmatar talk like a jamaican accent! I can tolerate other people's sensibilities when it comes to topics, because different subjects affect different people in all sorts of ways, but when we start drawing lines that don't exist simply because they don't fit our rationale is an illogical path to follow.
It's not an assumption, it's a judgement. Any of us is allowed to judge the quality of the entertainment content we consume, and should be especially free to do so when we're paying for it. Moreover, we should be careful not to confuse the works of fellow roleplayers with the game's official script.
I am curious how you would reconcile a professed tolerance of other people's sensibilities with the statement that acting on those sensibilities in this case is arbitrary and illogical.
Seriphyn and Ken, what would you consider an appropriate way to handle those themes in the game? Or should they just stay totally off-limits?
Violence and horrible things are part of my daily existence and encountering them in a video game really doesn't compare to the real thing. I think the 'grimdark' is a crucial part of EVE's character and its success and very much appreciate that CCP is willing to include in their world many topics that most game companies would stay well away from. It is the form, rather than the content, to which I objected after reading Seri's quote dump. Now, I haven't flown the Gallente epic arc personally, so there may be some contextual reinforcement for:
I can’t believe how much ISK you’re asking for that. Are you sure she’s a virgin?
I do not know if there is. However, it seems to me that short NPC blurbs in your local chat while running a mission is the least artful tool for reminding the player that New Eden is a cruel, realistic universe with all the accompanied blemishes and scars.
-
Yay, quotes!
The author does not have be preachy or include an instructive moral message in order to depict people doing morally objectionable things in a way that is tasteful.
I...never implied they did.
I believe it is possible to depict uncomfortable subjects in a meaningful, realistic, and valuable way that adds something to a story (see Silence of the Lambs, Boys Don't Cry, Schindler's List, the airport level in CoD:MW2, etc.). I believe it is also possible to depict them in an off-hand, unrefined, and noncontextualized way that renders the experience valueless (see any number of exploitation films, Manhunt, Japan's rape games, etc.). Both styles can be realistic, and while granting that either is able to achieve realism and many consumers (myself included) favor realistic media, it does not follow that one "can't" object if the experience is ultimately deemed unpleasant.
Exploitation films, Manhunt, and Hentai rape games are not realistic for anyone (I hope). They are absurd, which is why they aren't taken seriously, or considered tasteful. The realism of a scene, an ability for the audience to connect with characters/situations in a film at SOME level, is part of what makes a story meaningful and adds some substance to it.
Obviously, you can object and have your own opinions about whatever you want. I may not agree with them and find them illogical.
I mean, at the crux of the discussion, the question is whether this content adds to the gritty nature of the universe or is over the top. I, personally, feel that people object to certain depictions of situations that happen in reality, regardless of how well they are done, because they don't like having to face the reality that it ever happens. I think it's a knee-jerk, politically-correct response, and I like to point out that if you're going to mass murder, don't pretend all the other uncomfortable stuff doesn't happen either. I wasn't making a personal statement about your viewpoints on the matter, even if they may overlap.
It's not an assumption, it's a judgement. Any of us is allowed to judge the quality of the entertainment content we consume, and should be especially free to do so when we're paying for it. Moreover, we should be careful not to confuse the works of fellow roleplayers with the game's official script.
I am curious how you would reconcile a professed tolerance of other people's sensibilities with the statement that acting on those sensibilities in this case is arbitrary and illogical.
How? I present an alternative viewpoint in the hope they see mine, and maybe we can learn from it. Otherwise, I make my point and move on.
-
I think you also need to remember who the majority of Eve's mission runners and players are. It's not the roleplayers or the more 'cerebral' of the players that constitutes the majority of the people who'll be running this mission. While Eve's playerbase is in general a step up from most MMOs, having CCP's writers do these things more subtly would indeed make it more powerful - as in having to double-take and go 'wait.. he didn't mean... he did. Shit. That's grimdark!' - but would also mean the majority of the players would never get the references.
I don't mind this at all. I've been seeing the results of some of the most vicious and evil things a human can do to another in the military service, in security and now as a paramedic. I've treated wives, children and others who have been made victims... and I don't mind this. Why? Because even though I'd prefer a higher standard of writing in these missions, I'd rather they were rough gems with the potential for shiny than just lumps of coal.
In Eve, that means it needs to be downright horrifying.
-
My problems with this are simple:
If the "Grimdark" becomes every-day-reality, it looses it's punch. The way it is handled in most of what I have seen in EVE seems very flippant, if only because it's so pervasive.
It becomes Emperor Palpatine standing next to Lois Griffin going "Good, good! Give in to your hate!" as Cleveland and Quagmire fight (/Family Guy Reference) The "Big Bads" become mustache twirling villains, using "air quotes" to "emphasize" their "code words" which aren't really "code words" because the "context" is completely known by the audience.
You want Grimdark?
Grimdark version of Bond:
Bond: "Do you expect me to..."
*bang*
/bond
Grimdark can be achieved without using "cheap tricks" of kids, animals, and any combination thereof.
A simple example of Grimdark?
Mission: investigate a distress signal.
Popup:
As your ship drops out of warp, you see it. A ship is adrift in the dark, empty, endless night. Too far away from the star to get a good look, Aura alerts you to as weak signal being broadcast from somewhere within the lifeless husk.
"This is the...
**static**
I don't know how long we've been adrift...
**static**
started eating...
**static**
they're coming for me! Gods and Spirits, he's found me! Someone, anyone, please..."
The message repeats.
Aura:
"I think this is a good time to mention that multiple Rogue Drones have emerged from the wreck. I suggest we do something about this, I would rather we not explode just yet."
Halfway through the battle:
Popup:
Aura:
I have detected a short bandwidth transmission emanating from inside the derelict ship, and have just decrypted the message.
"Hello, are you there?"
"Why didn't you help me?"
"I've been waiting here, waiting so long."
"Why didn't you stop him?
"WHY WON'T YOU ANSWER ME"
Aura:
I wonder, is it possible that the distress massage we received is from a rogue AI?
After the mission, a body is found in the wreckage of the largest drone in the encounter.
Item: Hybridized Body
Description: This body has been badly mangled, but the head is mostly intact. Artificial analogs of organs supply vital fluids and nutrients to the loathsome being. A cursory examination shows that the body is that of the communications officer of the {ship you were sent to locate (possibly missing for years)}. As his eyes blink, and his mouth moves, you realize the shocking truth; he has been alive all this time!
Another?
A father asks you to locate his daughter. The daughter is 22 years old, and is important in some way (the father doesn't say how). If she is unwilling to return, you are to use whatever means necessary to get her back. During the course of the mission, the daughter is killed (by no fault of yours). The payout seems inexplicably high in relation to the actual specifics given, and you receive a message from the father.
The kicker? The father doesn't care that she is dead, and is only enraged by the idea that you didn't return the body for a "proper" burial. See, he was planning on using her death as a springboard for showcasing the immorality of current Amarrian society, and how only he can show the Empire the proper path...
However, you never hear that last part. Maybe somewhere down the line you recognize the name in a news article, about how this individual started speaking out about the "wickedness of the Capsuleers and their CONCORD benefactors" and "corruption within CONCORD and the Amarrian Empire".
How do you feel? Is it justified given the situation?
However, everyone's vision of Grimdark is different. I've also never thought that EVE should necessarily be Grimdark; my vote has always been for moral ambiguity and questioning of the "rights and wrongs" in the different cultures of New Eden.
But really, in a world where countless lives can be lost in huge planetary invasions, all under the guise of "uplifting" the common man to a greater purpose, doesn't that say something about the society as a whole? Would anyone really blink an eye at the loss of a few innocents? I'm sure everyone's answer is going to be different: Shades of gray FTW. ;)
I mean, I could go into a long diatribe about how suffering occurs in the real world every day, and arguing the "realism" of such in a game is...
...yeah I will in fact end it there. :D I love you guys, flaws and faults and eccentricities aside. :oops:
-
Amann Karris makes a good point. I will have to agree that the majority of the missions and such in Eve needs to be a bit subtle and unnerving rather than mustache twirling evil. Still... I think there's a place in Eve for the right in your face, no doubts, no questions or vagueness downright nasty evil and disgusting shit. It doesn't have to be everywhere, and indeed it isn't, but once in a while it doesn't hurt to see some of it on display.
After all, no one can say that epic arc in the op is the norm, after all. It's an example of the few times where it's really ground in your face without shame, and I honestly think we need that once in a while in Eve.
After all, we do have some very selfless missions and factions too... well... as far as the public knows.
/me shifty eyes and mutters something about tinfoil hats and teeth.
-
How? I present an alternative viewpoint in the hope they see mine, and maybe we can learn from it. Otherwise, I make my point and move on.
It seemed contradictory from where I'm sitting. I think my objection to your response stems primarily from the impression that you think Seri, myself, or any one else who might take issue with the OP's quoted content or something like it would be doing so out of "a knee-jerk, politically-correct response" and/or because we prefer not to admit that the real world is a cruel place where such meaningless tragedies happen all the time and no one swoops in to save the day. I know the world is like it. What I look for in fiction is a writer who can find meaning in and skillfully portray that 'grimdark' for the consumer in a way that adds value to the experience without cheapening the tragedy. I feel that the attempt failed miserably in this case.
Miz is probably right in that CCP could pull off the same thing with much more talent, but, keeping in mind the majority of their player base, have decided to go with the lowest common denominator and throw it right out there in our faces. The form of the message is the problem. Amann makes an excellent point by saying that the commonplace 'grimdark' (indeed, any story element) becomes in the game, the less punch it has.
-
Ken, I didn't mean that as a criticism but as a way of extending the conversation. I understand and respect the fact that you (and other people here) deal with RL grimdark. My question is simply, "how could CCP do it?"
-
They could start by having something a bit more dramatic and provocative than "factory full of child labourers blows up in chain reaction lololololol" for one.
-
That seems fairly provocative. It got some response here, right? ;)
I mean, you can make anything sound silly and trite. "hah hah greek dude kills his dad and bangs his own milf, wtf". So I can only assume your issue is the presentation, but your own representation of that seems a little, erm, light. :)
-
They could have presented it a bit better, yes. That's literally what happened. A factory blew up, followed by a couple of "Shit, lol" posts.
-
So, the persons responsible just don't care about the loss of lives. How surprising. They are (successfully, without a doubt) portrayed as ruthless assholes. I consider that a success of the writer.
And I hardly count the quoted scene as a "shit, lol"-answer.
-
That's sort of the point I was making: Seri, I feel like perhaps you've oversimplified what happens (the text about the reactor cores and replacing the children) to something that would be worthy of criticism, then criticizing that.
-
I am with Seriphyn on this one. This kind of things is just "too much", but it just follow a general tendancy in the current movies/video games/whatever when scenario always has to be "too much". Nothing subtle, everything like a "take that in your face" just to be sure people get it, and repeat it sometimes ad nauseam just to make it even more sure (people are not simpletons ffs). At the end all of this gets tasteless and worst : utterly ludicrous, where the spectator actually lose all the care he might have had for the subject.
You can make really gloomy and disturbing things with a lot more less. Take the movie Dancer in the Dark. It just tells the story of a woman that is sentenced to death for a crime she did not do. Why does that work ? Because it is not just about a random people (or even thousands of children, a mere statistic at this point), but about someone with a story (immigrant, alone, blind, etc) and a screenplay that works, show despair, emotion, etc.
If they had to make the player feel the emotions they wanted him to feel, they would have made something like showing the children in despair, for example. You can think of a crapload of gloomy and creepy sentences, dialogs, and even more important : successions of dialogs (that create the screenplay).
Or at the contrary if you want to show the lack of emotions of the people relating this, you firstly have to make the player feel emotions for the children, or whatever harsh is at stake, and then, show that people actually do not give a shit about them. And that means the script has to be good. It is an art to write dialogs.
Anyway, for what he has quoted here, I just feel the mere goal was just to shock people for the sake of shocking.
-
I'll once again point out that as a capsuleer, you've ended more lives in your first year of killing npcs and egger vessels than the Rwandan genocide.
So if "grimdark" is a problem, you'll have to carefully explain to me how slavery, prostitution and the indifference of a child's death, is worse than immolating the crews of pirate vessels and the like. There might be "levels of crime," if you will, or "levels of evil," but it's hard to beat mass murder.
-
The use of slavery, prostitution and whatnot is apart of EVE yes, it is just how it is APPLIED is the issue. If they're going to create this grim universe, then you've got to apply it in a fictionally sound way, not cheaply and for the hell of it.
It's more than just inserting these things merely to say "'ey up, this is dark, yo". Explore the "bigger picture" (which has occured in other areas by CCP, I'm just referring to this specific case) of why these things happen, not just that they happen. Look at the Empyrean Age. Republic PM Midular was raped in it. Why? No reason. Similarly, Karsoth was sucked off and orally pleased by a bunch of drugged children for, also, no real reason, other than to make an instant hate figure. You telling me this is acceptable? Of course you're not. You gotta apply dark subjects in decent ways.
(Looking at it, the Federation epic arc is extremely ruthless. You slaughter Minmatar refugees, blow up an Intaki colony for ties to the Syndicate, and all such things, all to rescue just one Senator's son as the final goal. Whether that's a little OTT to get the point across, is another issue. I guess the Feds can use their extremely positive external image (Promised Land etc.) as a cover to do more insidious things.)
-
I, on the other hand, find it hilarious that people would be offended by text.
-
From a purely IC perspective, it probably won't make any of us bat an eye. The issue is that we also happen to be human beings outside the game world. While anyone who's played videogames is likely quite comfortable with racking up a body count in the hundreds, thousands, and millions, most of us still don't enjoy the thought of children dying, being forced into prostitution, etc. Those are unpleasant subjects to which we have not been desensitized (for the most part) like we have been with wanton death and destruction.
As for what CCP should do in this regard or how they should handle it, I'm not so sure. I generally look at everything from a "what does it do to improve the [product]" standpoint, in this case the game. Could it have been done better? It's EVE, everything can be done better. Does it detract from the game as it is? Seems to depend on who you are.
-
In my opinion, off-hand remarks in a mission like those noted in the OP examples seem like a fairly subtle way of handling matters rather than in-your-face. While we can say that somebody didn't do something very well, I personally find it more convincing to illustrate with examples of how they could have done it more effectively. :)
I guess what I'm asking is: obviously, not liking how CCP handled things here is a perfectly valid PoV, but what would you think would have been a better way to handle it? Amann/Niki provided a few examples (likely in prep for his imminent return :P ), but are there other ways?
-
Ken, I didn't mean that as a criticism
No problem. I didn't really take it as criticism, but see that you are looking for a more substantive attempt at providing an alternative and I'll try to offer one now...
One death is a tragedy, one million are a statistic.
As Senn points out:
you've ended more lives in your first year of killing npcs and egger vessels than the Rwandan genocide.
From an OOC perspective, the ludicrous amount of destruction of human lives that the average capsuleer combat pilot causes in the course of simply running a few L3/L4 missions (and the vacuum in which that destruction typically occurs; you never see escape pods or receive desperate pleas for mercy from rats, for example) can easily deaden the player to the emotional aspects of their character's indifference (if not conscious cruelty) in the face of such death. The casualty figures are so high and the voice of the victims so muted that it is next to impossible to appreciate them in any other way than mathematics.
Cas, contrary to my earlier statement, or rather a refinement to it, I think you're right in that mission text and NPC call-outs in local could be a good way to get across the dark subtext of the EVE universe. In the case of the OP quotes, as Desiderya points out:
the persons responsible just don't care about the loss of lives... [and] are (successfully, without a doubt) portrayed as ruthless assholes
Agreed. The in-flight text has successfully characterized the actors in the story (however inconsequential they may be in the long run).
I consider that a success of the writer.
But with this assessment I do not agree. The writer has portrayed the characters as evil, but the brevity of the dialogue and actions used to demonstrate this quality make them reprehensible in the same way as a cackling comic book villain complete with curly mustache. It is almost as easy to dismiss the impact and meaning of the actions taking place as it is to dismiss the thousands of crew deaths one causes while running a mission. The casual style of the dialogue, I think, is inappropriate when the element of tragedy in the scene derives not from the combat death of starship crews who knew of the risks they faced (and have already been marginalized as an element of emotional importance to the player by the violence of everyday gameplay), but of the exploitation, sexual assault, and death of children.
A better way to handle that might have been to drop hints in item descriptions and agent mission text leading up to the encounter where the facilities are destroyed that made it clear (if not obscenely obvious) the facilities were being used for illegal prostitution of minors, and other assorted crimes, etc. Then, when actually in space at the site and the facilities are destroyed, the writer could have used a distress call in local from a child slave in the seconds before the explosion to put a face on the victim. For example:
Upon entering the deadspace pocket, your sensors intercept low-level data traffic from Pleasure Hub indicating the facility is being used by the gang for rather nefarious purposes.
Overheard from Bloodsport Arena: "Let me take a look at that creature over there. What a majestic specimen... So, how easy are they to tie up?"
Overheard from Pleasure Hub: "The best part about this circus is all the exotic things you meet. I thought you could only get them this young in Amarr."
Overheard from Gallente Outpost: "I asked for the best you had. Look, this one is already growing a beard. I can’t believe how much you’re asking for these."
Overheard from Casino: "I’ll get the money to you tomorrow. I swear I’m good for it. Please, let me see my daughter again."
Then, as the situation deteriorates with your presence and the whatever caused the facilities to explode begins to unfold:
Overheard from Pleasure Hub: "Hello? Is anyone out there? The bad men have all gone somewhere."
Overheard from Casino: "Dierdre, is that you?"
Overheard from Pleasure Hub: "Papa? What's happening? There's this loud banging and everyone is running!"
Overheard from Casino: "Dierdre! Papa's here. I'm here. Papa loves you so much, pumpkin."
Overheard from Pleasure Hub: "I'm so scared, papa--"
*the pleasure hub explodes*
Overheard from Casino: "Dierdre? Dierdre!!"
*the casino and other structures explode*
With the complexes gone, you pick up the former administrators transmissions from their escape craft:
And... we've lost another hub. Do you have any idea how much money that cost us?
Try to be more subtle with your ‘accidents’ next time, Azoen. It’s expensive to replace assets like those.
Rather than simply throwing child sex slavery and other things in the player's local window to be provocative, I have written a narrative (notice to carry over from the first casino intercept) that conveys the 'grimdark' theme, humanizes the victims, and still portrays the people responsible as callous and evil. I did not, however, use the words "virgin", "screw", or "kids", and I would argue that the more subtle depiction and simple narrative actually adds a great deal of impact and meaning to the scene that it previous lacked.
-
I, on the other hand, find it hilarious that people would be offended by text.
Oh my god this.
-
Hm,
. You would choose to portray more of the suffering directly, the writer in question has chosen to portray it through the eyes of the offenders. Especially the brevity of those casual remarks shows that this is something that simply happens in the world - especially in the world of those who are responsible.
Where I do agree is that it certainly could use additional fleshing out.
Why? No reason.
Because there is none. Not everything happens for a reason, some things simply happen, and not because of those moustache twirling villains forging plans to take over ze world. Look at the real world. You'll see plenty of that stuff just happening.
George R.R. Martin or Joe Abercrombie are good examples for novelists in whose works bad things do happen, even to popular figures, and quite surprisingly, too.
-
Why? No reason.
Because there is none. Not everything happens for a reason, some things simply happen, and not because of those moustache twirling villains forging plans to take over ze world. Look at the real world. You'll see plenty of that stuff just happening.
George R.R. Martin or Joe Abercrombie are good examples for novelists in whose works bad things do happen, even to popular figures, and quite surprisingly, too.
Well, take for example the unexpected death that happens near the end of Martin's A Game of Thrones. A major character with which the reader has been lead to identify closely is killed. An emotional response is evoked as the link between the character and the reader is abruptly severed, and although Martin doesn't really let the character "say goodbye", making the scene particularly grim and "realistic", the death is not arbitrary to the story. It affects the surviving characters in different ways and, I would argue, affects the reader in a significant way as well. I had a strong emotional reaction to the scene, but ultimately realized how effective it was. Martin uses uncaring and sudden violence to effectively engage the reader and build other characters.
Per that example, I think violence, cruelty, and general bloodymindedness can be depicted as arbitrary within the subjective world of a story, but still have a meaningful objective "take away" for a reader. In the cases of Seri's examples from the Gallente epic arc, the (absolutely tasteless) rape scene in TEA, and in a broader sense the treatment of almost all capsuleer-caused destruction in EVE in general, I think there is little or no "take away" because the writers do not use the objectionable actions to develop anything, but rather, as Lyn said:
to shock people for the sake of shocking.
I may be overreaching by saying that all capsuleer-caused destruction in EVE goes unused for dramatic purpose, as The Burning Life did a decent job of showing the pain and suffering caused and giving it meaning, but very little of that shows up in the client when you're grinding "Worlds Collide" or some such.
-
Is this where I make the obligatory Aeris reference? ;)
-
:evil: Don't you speak her name! :cry: :oops:
-
Games need more child mortality.
-
I didn't play it, but did Heavy Rain do it "right"?
-
Having never played it either, I (at least) can't answer that.
-
Personally there's nothing that can really be brought up in EVE that would top some of the things I've seen and heard about in reality. The level of misery that can be delivered upon a human being by another human being is underestimated by a good many people that I know. Even people that you can sit down with, talk, laugh, share a beer with have done things that I wouldn't want to repeat.
On the other hand, I really don't want to be desensitized to the suffering of others. When you stop empathizing with your fellow human beings -- or believe that no suffering that you have endured can be less than that which you can inflict -- bad things happen.
Like I said, shades of gray trumps "Grimdark" in my book. I'd rather question my morality, and potentially grow from the questioning, than to be desensitized to morality in general.
So, Casiella, do you really think that Amann/Niki will be making a return? I don't think I will ever return to EVE. There would have to be some huge shift in content (and I don't mean Incarna) to seduce me back. I may write some fiction now and then. In my eyes EVE has lost it's luster. It has lost that shiny newness and that wide-eyed wonder-inducing beauty.
I'll always love EVE, even if I'm not in love with EVE. ;)
-
Grimdark away, and although this isn't a terrible case, it's no excuse to just have, for example, random, OTT, overly-explicit and completely unnecessary fictional descriptions of murder/rape/whatever.
It just becomes cheap.
Overly-explicit? Despite being a single throwaway line? You spin me right round baby, right round.
-
You're right with the G.R.R. Martin scene. It works better when you are attached to that character. But all the random deaths - the book is ridden with that - work, too. We can't compare the works directly: Martin is the better author and a novel can be far more luxurious with it's screenplay than the mission texts. I'd say the author of the OP's scene wanted to focus on the warped bunch of people responsible for it, and not on the victims.
The casual remarks used are 'efficient' in a way that they probably don't want to use large portions of text inflight and they manage to portray both customers and offenders as -I already used that word earlier. The superficial manner describes to me that not only the protagonists don't care, but that it isn't that extraordinary in the world of EVE.
-
I think Martin's "random deaths" work better for the only reason he is a way better storyteller. The examples written by Ken worked a lot better than the original ones quoted by Seri, for example, to my opinion.
You also need something else for grimdark to work. For every gloomy thing, creepy aspect, you need at least some of the opposite values. If you have none, you can't adjust the contrast (because there is suddenly none), and voila, tasteless whatever you try to achieve, because you have no 'good and emotionnal' reference anymore.
I think here the author tried to do kind of the same thing Gaspar Noé tried to do in his movie Irreversible. Some things work, while some other just look gratuitous. But unlike the movie, text based crude scenes are hardly very relevant when they come to that. Either you have to describe a lot more to make the player feel really dizzy, either you have to be more subtle to let him come to his own gloomy conclusions.
-
That's just it, Lyn, there are contrasting segments to Eve. You just can't expect every last facet of New Eden morality to pop up in a single mission. This one was on the harsh in your face end of the spectrum, while others show the other side of things. It's a quick and efficient method of showing the off-handed acts of atrocious evil committed without a second thought on a daily basis around New Eden, while letting other missions and other events show the flip side of the coin.
Having a 'narrative' and relatively long bits of fiction rolling over your screen in a mission is counter-productive as people will just barely skim it and get on with the pewpew. This is efficient, strong and warranted in a storyline such as this.
Sometimes the subtle tickle of a feather or just the slightest waft of a scent will be the most useful tool... and other times you just have to hit the player in the face with a sledgehammer. This is the sledgehammer and it worked beautifully. Want the feather or the scent? Play on, do some other missions. There's several of them that made me grin viciously in approval once I'd thought a bit and read between the lines.
-
How about that Dolls mission? ^_^
-
How about that Dolls mission? ^_^
I WANT TO WEAR HIS FLESH SUIT!
-
It puts the lotion on it's skin
-
I WANT TO WEAR HIS FLESH SUIT!
Personally, I thought this storyline did a great job. The missions varied so greatly from others that nearly any player would stop and read the text rather than just "gogogo pewpewpew", and when you do, it says just enough that I actually got creeped out.
YMMV. HTH. HAND.
-
That's just it, Lyn, there are contrasting segments to Eve. You just can't expect every last facet of New Eden morality to pop up in a single mission. This one was on the harsh in your face end of the spectrum, while others show the other side of things. It's a quick and efficient method of showing the off-handed acts of atrocious evil committed without a second thought on a daily basis around New Eden, while letting other missions and other events show the flip side of the coin.
Having a 'narrative' and relatively long bits of fiction rolling over your screen in a mission is counter-productive as people will just barely skim it and get on with the pewpew. This is efficient, strong and warranted in a storyline such as this.
Sometimes the subtle tickle of a feather or just the slightest waft of a scent will be the most useful tool... and other times you just have to hit the player in the face with a sledgehammer. This is the sledgehammer and it worked beautifully. Want the feather or the scent? Play on, do some other missions. There's several of them that made me grin viciously in approval once I'd thought a bit and read between the lines.
Honestly when I read the quotes Seri linked I am at best half convinced.
Sure, you can consider that the whole EvE fiction is one unique story, but its like any series of novels with the same universe. If in each chapter you only have one flat side, the story does not work. You just can't split it like this.
Though I agree on the fact you can't overflow the player screen with rolling text, thats why I think the examples shown by Ken worked just fine imo.