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[BloodBird]

So, yeah.

Now, after 6 months of endless "Rawr, Matari bad!" as a result of the massive derpsplosion that was the Coleile/Brouteau arc, I am now set upon by people who claim Ava isnt "Minny" enough for... for whatever. I went from being the punching bag of the community for the evils of Minny society (that is basically what it was there for a month or two) to this... what?

So, let me ask this; are there reasonable standards, to which the community can hold someone who expects to be seen as a member of a faction "in good standing" and where is the line? At this point, Ava's "minny cred' is pretty well established, frankly, but three people have now made the comment, IC, that somehow she is all bad and not Minny for daring to leave faction warfare/EM.

At what point do reasonable expectations just become derp?

Welp, I just read your IC tread.

I laughed. so hard, and so long - nice work, really awesome.

As for your concerns, I do believe you have proper advice on that part by now. You are well established as "Matari" and that won't change. Much like my toon is an Intaki Federal no matter what any other party would say. Kindly inform them that they can go fuck themselves, because you and YOU ALONE decide what you define yourself as, both IC and OOC.

Let's face it - it won't stop them judging you anyway, we all judge each other, after all.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

If we're being honest with ourselves, all you need to do in order to be a paid-up Caldari Loyalist is work within one of the Megas. If you do that, you're Caldari. If you don't do that, you're really not. That's how the culture works.

Does that mean you have to be in FW? No. But FW is one of the least contentious ways to fly the flag. That said, all you really have to do is claim to be a subsidiary or a contractor for one of the Okusaiken...

In the interests of my own roleplay, I want to point out that's not quite true. You can still be a Caldari State loyalist (If perhaps with more leanings on the "State" and less on the "Caldari") without being a member of one of the megacorporations if you're part of a client state, in the vein of the Achura or the Intaki who eventually formed Mordu's Legion.

Also - And I started wondering this the other day - What if you're a member of the one of the other "big" corporations that aren't megas but are also not clearly defined as subsidaries? Like Perkone, for instance, which the game has presently dumped my corpless self into.

[Gaven Lok ri]

The idea that a character involved in the militia would consider anyone not involved in the militia to "not be doing their part" and anyone who left the militia to be a "deserter" is an entirely reasonable RP line.

The problem is when it seeps into OOC discussions. People attacking Ava's cred IC are entirely within reasonable character. People attacking her cred in OOC channels are being really silly and wasting what should be an IC interaction.

Also, seriously, y'all are really idealizing the old RP wars. I was there, they weren't that special. The set of wars happening right before the current set have also been talked about as an unattainable golden age for as long as I remember, if you want proof of this, dig through the cesspool of the chatsubo sometime. We blame FW now, 5 years ago people blamed CVA for finishing off U'K's position in Provi as an end to RP wars. 8 years ago they blamed CVA for going to Provi in the first place. 7 Years ago it was the low sec route changes killing the wars. Before my time there was the initial PIE vs Oracle wars being talked about this way, and before that people talked about *beta* as an ideal time. And that is just the Amarr/Matari side of things. The civil wars and such have a similar story. In any given period there were some really really cool things, and then a large amount of tedium.

FW doesn't stop the cool things from happening, it just puts a focus on a specific area of conflict. This is the same area of conflict that was being prioritized for the most part for years prior to the existence of FW. Other conflicts can and should exist outside of this, but it is up to the players to make them.

[Katrina Oniseki]

In the interests of my own roleplay, I want to point out that's not quite true. You can still be a Caldari State loyalist (If perhaps with more leanings on the "State" and less on the "Caldari") without being a member of one of the megacorporations if you're part of a client state, in the vein of the Achura or the Intaki who eventually formed Mordu's Legion.

Also - And I started wondering this the other day - What if you're a member of the one of the other "big" corporations that aren't megas but are also not clearly defined as subsidaries? Like Perkone, for instance, which the game has presently dumped my corpless self into.

Perkone is a Hyasyoda subsidiary, I believe.

You don't have to be one of the "Big Eight", but you do have to be employed by the State in some regard. Being a Megacorporate employee is simply the most straightforward way. Being in the Caldari Navy, or a menial worker for the CEP, or House of Records... there's plenty of non-aligned State corporations mostly in government and military. Those all count.

If however you are a non-aligned Achuran traditionalists, with loyalty only to the Achuran people and monks and traditions etc... - you're probably not State. I'd wager you're disassociated at best, dissenter at worst.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

In the interests of my own roleplay, I want to point out that's not quite true. You can still be a Caldari State loyalist (If perhaps with more leanings on the "State" and less on the "Caldari") without being a member of one of the megacorporations if you're part of a client state, in the vein of the Achura or the Intaki who eventually formed Mordu's Legion.

Also - And I started wondering this the other day - What if you're a member of the one of the other "big" corporations that aren't megas but are also not clearly defined as subsidaries? Like Perkone, for instance, which the game has presently dumped my corpless self into.

Perkone is a Hyasyoda subsidiary, I believe.

You don't have to be one of the "Big Eight", but you do have to be employed by the State in some regard. Being a Megacorporate employee is simply the most straightforward way. Being in the Caldari Navy, or a menial worker for the CEP, or House of Records... there's plenty of non-aligned State corporations mostly in government and military. Those all count.

If however you are a non-aligned Achuran traditionalists, with loyalty only to the Achuran people and monks and traditions etc... - you're probably not State. I'd wager you're disassociated at best, dissenter at worst.

It's a Hyasyoda subsidary? I'll take your word for it, but I'd appreciate it if you could throw me a source if you have one. I spent the better part of 20 minutes last night digging around for any fluff related to them in that regard and found nothing after it came up in roleplay.

Regarding Achuran traditionalists being dissenters, that'd make pretty much the entire rural population of Saisio III so. And considering that they have an autonomous government seperate from the Megacorporations,

While there is an autonomous Achura government known as the Elder Visionaries, they mostly control the monasteries in the rural areas of the homeworld. The Elder Visionaries are as reclusive and introverted as an entity can be whilst still participating in cluster affairs, primarily in the areas of interstellar religion.

(Source: Caldari Demographics Article)

That the Caldari canonically run errands for when the need arises,

The sacred pieces believed to be from the Rod of the Creator were stolen from under the supervision of the Achur religious order. The Caldari State has pledged enormous resources toward tracking down the thieves. However, the Elder Visionaries of Achura, unsatisfied with the pledge and not trusting of the Caldari government, sought further action.

(Source: Achura Article)

I would say that doesn't seem paticularly likely. They seem to have a "With the State but not Of the State" relationship going on, as best as I can read it.

That's not to say that people can't roleplay the sentiment that it isn't a proper part of Caldari society, but I just wanted to say that the lore isn't quite "Megacorp or bust" in the way Pieter was getting at.

Anyway, sorry to divert from the topic.

[Katrina Oniseki]

stuff

All good points that I agree with.

As for the Hyasyoda thing... my only source is Ken's little chart thing for it. I'll try and find it and upload it later, but he placed Perkone under Hyasyoda.

[Merdaneth]

If however you are a non-aligned Achuran traditionalists, with loyalty only to the Achuran people and monks and traditions etc... - you're probably not State. I'd wager you're disassociated at best, dissenter at worst.

Me shakes head.

There is no such thing as an objectifiable State supporter (or other factions). Was Heth State? Was Karsoth Amarr? These things are fluid and dependent upon perspective, one person's hero is another's traitor. Loyalist today, traitor tomorrow as perceptions shift.

I understand the need for people to try to label and classify according to stereotypes, but let's not kid ourselves that the label means anything other than a heavily biased but convenient shortcut.

[Lyn Farel]

That's what is interesting with the Achura case. It's even better like that. All the rural areas (and probably more) of Saisio, and various other non employed Achuras by megas, could rightfully called non Caldari by Deteis or Civire hard working classes for whom working in a mega defines one being a Caldari, or not. They could also for some Achura calling themselves non Caldari, because they just do not care, State or no State. Some might at the contrary call themselves Caldari with perfectly valid counter arguments just because they are at the very least a Caldari protectorate, or something in the vein...

If we're being honest with ourselves, all you need to do in order to be a paid-up Caldari Loyalist is work within one of the Megas. If you do that, you're Caldari. If you don't do that, you're really not. That's how the culture works.

Does that mean you have to be in FW? No. But FW is one of the least contentious ways to fly the flag. That said, all you really have to do is claim to be a subsidiary or a contractor for one of the Okusaiken...

Which becomes even more fun when we take into consideration all the Caldari (with the Rataa legacy) left in the Federation, and living their mostly unchanged old fashioned Caldari lives, and which can also be called Caldari, maybe even more so than the "modern" Caldari, the State itself.

But that's another subject 

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Which becomes even more fun when we take into consideration all the Caldari (with the Rataa legacy) left in the Federation, and living their mostly unchanged old fashioned Caldari lives, and which can also be called Caldari, maybe even more so than the "modern" Caldari, the State itself.

But that's another subject 

Considering "Caldari" is a label that the Caldari who left the Federation more or less made up to unite them as a group, and before that they were more prone to identifying by their nation or simple ethnicity and generally being more diverse, the ones who stayed behind probably think the term itself is kinda dumb.

I think Pieter meant "Caldari" in a sense of "State Loyalist" more then anything else, though.

[Makkal]

If we're being honest with ourselves, all you need to do in order to be a paid-up Caldari Loyalist is work within one of the Megas. If you do that, you're Caldari. If you don't do that, you're really not. That's how the culture works.

That would mean Makkal is a Caldari, yet not one Caldari has treated her as such or suggested she is one. The closest anyone has come is Diana Kim referring to her as -haani, which actually predates Makkal joining I-RED.

If being Caldari were a simple binary, no one would ever suggest Ishukone was less Caldari or bad Caldari, but it happens because there's an ideal level of Caldariness the characters are judging one another by.

[Lyn Farel]

Which becomes even more fun when we take into consideration all the Caldari (with the Rataa legacy) left in the Federation, and living their mostly unchanged old fashioned Caldari lives, and which can also be called Caldari, maybe even more so than the "modern" Caldari, the State itself.

But that's another subject 

Considering "Caldari" is a label that the Caldari who left the Federation more or less made up to unite them as a group, and before that they were more prone to identifying by their nation or simple ethnicity and generally being more diverse, the ones who stayed behind probably think the term itself is kinda dumb.

I think Pieter meant "Caldari" in a sense of "State Loyalist" more then anything else, though.

Mhh, that's an interesting point. I would tend to agree with it, though what made me take it the way I did initially is that they are designated as Caldari in the gallente demographics article.

Caldari

Although the majority of the Caldari population left the Federation in the evacuation of their homeworld, they are technically still a member race due to the fact there are several primarily Caldari member nations around the core systems who did not join the secessionists. This is not considered the most politically fashionable technicality to bring up in polite conversation.

The Caldari who did not leave the union include tribal groups living amongst the Kaalakiota Peaks to citizens living in post-colonial settlements across the Federation. These individuals hold no identity or allegiance to the State whatsoever. Curious to many is the fact that these Caldari are much more traditional compared to those found in the State, at least in terms of Raata cultures and customs. These groups are collectivist in nature and tend to create governments that reflect this. The hands-off attitude the general Federation populace has to these specific Caldari due to long-entrenched sensitivities means these groups generally keep to themselves.

A second group is made up of Caldari migrants from the State, who have left their home nation for a variety of reasons. This typically includes Caldari who were exiled or those who left the State for ideological disagreements (especially those who disagreed with the rise of Tibus Heth[11]). Whatever the case, these Caldari are generally considered traitors by their counterparts back in the State. They may retain their identity independent of the State’s definitions, or blend into a wider Gallente melting pot.

Thus the thing i'm wondering is when was that Caldari term created ? After the secession ? Before ? Is is tied to the State or to the race ?

[Makkal]

If however you are a non-aligned Achuran traditionalists, with loyalty only to the Achuran people and monks and traditions etc... - you're probably not State. I'd wager you're disassociated at best, dissenter at worst.

Me shakes head.

There is no such thing as an objectifiable State supporter (or other factions). Was Heth State? Was Karsoth Amarr? These things are fluid and dependent upon perspective, one person's hero is another's traitor. Loyalist today, traitor tomorrow as perceptions shift.

I understand the need for people to try to label and classify according to stereotypes, but let's not kid ourselves that the label means anything other than a heavily biased but convenient shortcut.

You start the post criticizing Kat for treating an opinion like an objective statement, and then end the post treating your opinion like an objective statement.

You don't find meaning in labels. Other people find meaning in labels. They are not 'kidding' themselves; they simply have a different value system.

[BloodBird]

Which becomes even more fun when we take into consideration all the Caldari (with the Rataa legacy) left in the Federation, and living their mostly unchanged old fashioned Caldari lives, and which can also be called Caldari, maybe even more so than the "modern" Caldari, the State itself.

But that's another subject 

Considering "Caldari" is a label that the Caldari who left the Federation more or less made up to unite them as a group, and before that they were more prone to identifying by their nation or simple ethnicity and generally being more diverse, the ones who stayed behind probably think the term itself is kinda dumb.

I think Pieter meant "Caldari" in a sense of "State Loyalist" more then anything else, though.

Mhh, that's an interesting point. I would tend to agree with it, though what made me take it the way I did initially is that they are designated as Caldari in the gallente demographics article.

Caldari

Although the majority of the Caldari population left the Federation in the evacuation of their homeworld, they are technically still a member race due to the fact there are several primarily Caldari member nations around the core systems who did not join the secessionists. This is not considered the most politically fashionable technicality to bring up in polite conversation.

The Caldari who did not leave the union include tribal groups living amongst the Kaalakiota Peaks to citizens living in post-colonial settlements across the Federation. These individuals hold no identity or allegiance to the State whatsoever. Curious to many is the fact that these Caldari are much more traditional compared to those found in the State, at least in terms of Raata cultures and customs. These groups are collectivist in nature and tend to create governments that reflect this. The hands-off attitude the general Federation populace has to these specific Caldari due to long-entrenched sensitivities means these groups generally keep to themselves.

A second group is made up of Caldari migrants from the State, who have left their home nation for a variety of reasons. This typically includes Caldari who were exiled or those who left the State for ideological disagreements (especially those who disagreed with the rise of Tibus Heth[11]). Whatever the case, these Caldari are generally considered traitors by their counterparts back in the State. They may retain their identity independent of the State’s definitions, or blend into a wider Gallente melting pot.

Thus the thing i'm wondering is when was that Caldari term created ? After the secession ? Before ? Is is tied to the State or to the race ?

The terms Gallente and Caldari were first used when the exploration ship from Gallentia - later re-named Gallente Prime - landed on the world who would be named "Caldari Prime" by the future secessionists. The locals used the term "Caldari" as a catch-all phrase for all of them, while the Gallente crew's captain refereed to her own people as "Gallente" as a similar term to include all of the natives of Gallentia. A few hundred years later there was the whole war-business and the "Caldari State" was founded and their homeworld re-named "Caldari" partially to spite the Union they were leaving, IIRC.

The "Loyalist" Deteis/Civire/others who had settled on a number of other worlds and remained when the majority of their homeworld's people left, likely don't think of themselves as "Caldari" at all because the term is technically the same as "State citizen" in function and meaning. If you are a person who were born in the State and later move the the Fed for whatever reason, you would likely be well served with getting used to not using the term to refer to yourself anymore. Ofc, there is likely also a good chance there are plenty of people who consider themselves to be the true Caldari, considering themselves as such because they stuck around in the original homelands while all the fake ones left and set up a false homeland, proclaiming that they were the only proper Caldari around, etc. Might be some fun tension and RP to be had between the Fed and State loyal Caldari, but I can't recall many, if any, biting on this possible angle over the years.

[Lyn Farel]

That's a shame isnt it ? Seri tried to bring up that once or twice iirc, but apparently people didn't really want to hear it.

Also I don't think why the Caldari that remained would not call themselves Caldari, is the term predates the secession. They could, they could not... After all they all called themselves Caldari before the secession, secessionists or not no ? I'm not sure if we have concrete sources over that...

[Vincent Pryce]

From Minmatar cred thread suddenly turned to what makes you real Caldari... I am not saying the thread was hijacked, but it's possible the thread was hijacked.