Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Silver Night on 05 Jul 2010, 12:18
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News article here: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3945&tid=6
A couple thoughts. The State isn't the kinda place where I would have thought this kind of thing would be controversial. Also, I'm wondering hat court they were tried in, I guess the Provists must have their own?
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I think its controversial because it just illustrates, yet again, how the Heth's regime create ambiguous laws in the name of 'safety' to get rid of people that oppose his rule. Yet another example from the Provists to make the mega corporations shudder and hope they aren't one of the lucky individuals chosen for this witch hunt.
Note: This reminds me a lot of the rise of dictatorships in Europe in the 30s and 40s.
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ISD Khepri Shaleigh is new, as in just stated posting articles on 1 July.
The article reads too much like it was taken out of the United States. Just replace the Caldari with the USGov and Sansha with terrorist. The article implies there is some extra-corporate court system other than the Caldari Business Tribunal (which is a corporate to corporate court). This is the first time I have ever seen mention of it.
The State has "civil liberty" groups? Maybe they are Federal civil liberty groups?
Caldari Legal Foundation - is that a subsidiary of the Mercantile Club?
Citizen's Rights First - um... where were these guys 3 years ago? or even 2 years ago? Who funds them?
Which State "appeals court"? KK's? SuVee's? Hyasyoda's? etc?
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*Face Palm*
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Tibus Heth fails as a nationalist autocrat if he cannot even succeed in quashing those pesky civil liberties kids and their pesky dog.
Seriously though, the article makes little sense to me. For one, it means that all eight Megas have effectively given the Provists the ability for them to detain any of their corporate citizens at any time, anywhere in the State. Sansha or no, I can't believe the Megacorp boards to be as that incompetent as to cede the authority to deal with their citizens as they see fit.
And when the hell did the State get a Supreme Court to dictate the Law to the Megas? Or indeed any kind of central legal code outside that of the CBT?
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As much as the initial prospects of this article pleased me, it does seem incredibly unCaldari in nature.
Now if they switch it over to the Federation, it works fine.
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orange, if you think that sort of debate never arose anywhere except in recent US events, you've missed something. :)
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orange, if you think that sort of debate never arose anywhere except in recent US events, you've missed something. :)
I don't and the statement was perception biases, I live in the US.
As much as the initial prospects of this article pleased me, it does seem incredibly unCaldari in nature.
Now if they switch it over to the Federation, it works fine.
I think the article would have had a better impact and made sense if it talked about SDII (aka Black Eagles) and the eroding of the rights of Federal citizens.
With this article we seem to be left scratching our heads and going "Caldari citizen's had rights prior to the Provist?"
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The State isn't the kinda place where I would have thought this kind of thing would be controversial.
This, really.
I've always thought of the Provist involvement in law enforcement being something like the Gestapo. You wouldn't take the Gestapo to court over charges of wrongful detainment. They would take you to a shallow grave and close the case right there. As much as I like counterpoints to the normal EVE stereotypes, this just doesn't bring the grim/dark like it should. I mean, "civil liberties" and "State" in the same sentence...
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As much as the initial prospects of this article pleased me, it does seem incredibly unCaldari in nature.
Now if they switch it over to the Federation, it works fine.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought this. I was like "State civil rights groups WAT?"...it also makes no sense to me.
I think the article would have had a better impact and made sense if it talked about SDII (aka Black Eagles) and the eroding of the rights of Federal citizens.
With this article we seem to be left scratching our heads and going "Caldari citizen's had rights prior to the Provist?"
That's what I thought it was at first, before I opened the article and saw it was Caldari...if you remember my SDII "Operation Nightstalker" thread, I would have loved if I saw this article for the Fed instead.
Honestly, we have different factions for a reason...seeing "civil rights" in a Caldari article is just pure confusing. The State cares about a lot of things, but I'm pretty sure civil rights is not one of them.
I was actually thinking to myself that "civil rights" being introduced as a concept in the State is another Gallente cultural invasion lol
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There have been protests etc about people's rights in the State before. It just wasn't, from what I recall, much of a legal issue for them to be suppressed. There isn't any right of -whatever- guaranteed in some document in the State, so far as I know?
I would think that any 'rights' that a particular peron has ould come from their corporation. A person's position as a employee of x corporation prevents another corporation (or the provists) from doing things to them. At least to a certain degree, which probably doesn't extend to protecting them if they are colluding with the Sanshas (or a credible case can be made, with probably fairly low and informal burdens of proof.)
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Now if they switch it over to the Federation, it works fine.
Reading it, i got exactly this interpretation, SDII black eagles taking away a suspect would fit just fine.
As my Zagamesh pointed out, when did a supreme caldari court was created one wonders.
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Any society or organization that embraces economic freedom must also embrace, at least to some extent, individual freedom.
This has been a core of my view (and a few other's) of the State for some time, and it would seem CCP agrees with me: the Caldari State is not an oligarchic or even autocratic organization, it's a semi-tight confederation of "states" bound by similar ideological and cultural viewpoints.
It's worth noting that many of the "protests" about workers rights and even the debate about using slave labor for rescue were all from the Caldari State. If the State is a Japanese/Chinese hybrid, as some profess, this is odd indeed. However, if the State is not merely the "Draconis Combine" by another name, then these articles, going back to the beginning of the canon, make sense.
Not that I'm saying "your RP is wrong", but the way I play and view the State is as a multi-ethnic, culturally community-oriented, competitive confederation.
Heth was frustrated by the Megas when he tried to detain citizens. So now he is pulling the "terrorist" card. I think those who note the similarity to the U.S. situation are right on - the question is, how far will he go?
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Vik, my issue is not that it represents an erosion of their individual rights, but rather the portrayal of said rights as being something protected by a federal style supreme court versus the corporations themselves.
I do not believe your view of the State is at odds with others. It is the facts and language surrounding this article that get to me.
view the State is as a multi-ethnic, culturally community-oriented, competitive confederation
In said confederation do you see there being a superior court to mediate individual rights? Or would such things be left to a lower level court within the members jurisdiction?
Heth was frustrated by the Megas when he tried to detain citizens. So now he is pulling the "terrorist" card.
So the actual concern should be the CPD's continued violation of corporate sovereignty and not the erosion of individual rights as the article portrays.
At a State-level, individual rights are meaningless. If you are caught on your own and left in the wind without a corporation laying claim to you, you are a non-citizen.
The article isn't about how KK, Lai Dai, Wiyrkomi, Hyasyoda, SuVee, Ishukone, CBD, and NoH treat their employees/citizens and whether they can arrest them without cause (erosion of individual rights), but rather how the CPD is violating rights of individual persons, which isn't the real story.
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Not that I'm saying "your RP is wrong", but the way I play and view the State is as a multi-ethnic, culturally community-oriented, competitive confederation.
This is have to wonder where you get that from...in the State, you have the Caldari, the Achur and then expat Gallente due to close economic ties. The Federation was, and is, always hammered to be the multi-ethnic society, with every race in EVE having a home there. Meanwhile, the Caldari is stated to be "tolerant only of foreigners that stick by the rules", with the Gallente being the only faction to be subject to mass immigration from the other empires. Just curious to see where you might get that interpretation from. I mean, we have separate factions for a reason, and any overlap just takes away all the flavour. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Caldari State being a monoethnic society, just like Japan IRL right?
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Well, there's always the Intaki, Mannar and even Gallenteans who may have joined the Caldari in their war of independence as well as those who migrated from the Federation to the State in the period after. Then there are the Amarr, Khanid and Minmatar who may also have migrated to the State. Probably not as ethnically homogeneous as the Federation as immigration would be regulated by the Megas (If you're not going to work for a Mega or a subsidiary then what are you doing in the State?) but that would not mean the State is just Civire, Deteis and Achur.
Culturally though, the Caldari do appear to be conservative and traditionalists which is unsurprising given their history.
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I think you mean not as ethnically heterogeneous. Vik contends that they are, in fact, homogeneous. :)
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Yeah, this article appears to misrepresent what we've been told about the Caldari legal system before, and doesn't really fit into the framework, at least as I've envisioned. I think there could be civil rights groups, but the whole process described here...the Provists might arrest someone without cause, but then it would be their corporate lawyer going to bat for them because of violations of corporate sovereignty as other people have pointed out, not because of an American-style Fourth Amendment violation.
I do think that the Caldari have some sort of basic civil rights that all corporations are expected to abide by -- slavery is illegal, after all, and I suspect enshrining the sanctity of private property (even if private property is hard to acquire) is very high up on the list of Caldari rights. And, based on the CBT corporate description, I'm not sure they have attorney-client privilege or anything like that either -- does France have rules of that nature (since I know they have an inquisitorial judicial system as well)?
But yeah....this article isn't the best I've seen when it comes to portraying the Caldari legal system -- somewhat understandable, though, since I don't think there's any easy analogue compared to the other empires (same problem as the Caldari government in general).
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Look folks, this is simple. The article is now PF. It passed through all CCP quality and content controls.
The content itself makes sense if you get your heads out of the real world and in to the world of the State.
Boom: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3795&tid=6
The Providence Directorate formed several commissions and "loyalty" courts to investigate threats to the State. This is clearly one of them, acting upon their "legal" jurisdiction. Patriots and Liberals reject this because it is a matter of the Federal Provist Authority of superseding State tradition and systems that have existed for centuries. The Liberals have a full host of "Civil Rights" philosophers, Otro Gariushi was the biggest one. In his stead, these organizations are taking up the fight against Tibus Heth's "reforms" on behalf of what they see as corporate sovereignty, citizenship, and rights.
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Yeah, my first thought was 'LOLRIPPEDFROMHEADLINES'.
Look folks, this is simple. The article is now PF. It passed through all CCP quality and content controls.
The content itself makes sense if you get your heads out of the real world and in to the world of the State.
Boom: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3795&tid=6
The Providence Directorate formed several commissions and "loyalty" courts to investigate threats to the State. This is clearly one of them, acting upon their "legal" jurisdiction. Patriots and Liberals reject this because it is a matter of the Federal Provist Authority of superseding State tradition and systems that have existed for centuries. The Liberals have a full host of "Civil Rights" philosophers, Otro Gariushi was the biggest one. In his stead, these organizations are taking up the fight against Tibus Heth's "reforms" on behalf of what they see as corporate sovereignty, citizenship, and rights.
So is = ought now, and everyone should be content and happy with everything CCP puts out? That's interesting; I recall you singing a very different tune last year. Something about "delightful stories and pieces of information about how much the Gallente Suck and the Caldari Are the Best Government/Corporation System Evah. "
Now, the link you've provided references the State Loyalty Tribunal. It makes little sense to me for that to be described as an appeals court. Maybe that's what was intended, I don't know. (You don't either, for that matter, unless you are ISD Khepri Shaleigh or someone connected to him or her.) There's also some distance between there being Caldari in favor of civil rights and "a host of civil liberties groups." Is it impossible? No, but it doesn't fit with the conceptualizations many people posting in this thread have of the Caldari system.
That's what this whole thing is about, you know. We're not children who're going to throw away the toys we're given because they're the wrong color. But when we think we're playing with legos and somebody suddenly hands us a piece of an erector set, we have to take a moment and figure out how it makes sense OOC so we can deal with it IC.
Is that okay with you?
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Look folks, this is simple. The article is now PF. It passed through all CCP quality and content controls.
So did Empyrean Age. Being canon doesn't mean one has to like it.
The content itself makes sense if you get your heads out of the real world and in to the world of the State.
I find it hard to agree at first and I think that is mostly because of the article's suggestion that the rights and powers of individuals in the State have a larger importance than in many of my/our preconceptions of that society. Namely, the preconception that the State is a society wherein loyalty and service are so highly regarded that the dishonor of a serious accusation of treason ought be enough for a good citizen to do the right thing and "drink the (poisoned) tea".
However, on a third read, my impression is less of a new ISD writer mistaking the State for the Federation than of Tibus Heth's regime meeting more public resistance at home. That such a challenge was possible and was publicized so widely suggests the Provists' wartime carte blanche is fraying at the seams, which is sure to make a fella like you happy, Julianus. :)
Edit: Perhaps the ISD reporter (publishing for the Scope, after all) is Gallente and has simply chosen language of a Federal flavor to describe a story taking place within the world of the State. A "host of civil liberties groups" could in fact be law firms subordinate to the megacorps from which these detainees hail, could they not? Citizen's Rights First could very well be a Liberal-backed upstart put in place to make trouble for the CPD at a calculated moment. It really is the language of the article, more than its content, that offends.
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This needs a Picard facepalm, because that's my exact reaction to the thread.
So here:
(http://scienceblogs.com/sunclipse/picard-facepalm.jpg)
Hopefully that site allows hotlinking.
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*Face Palm*
Picard facepalm
Copycat.
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Not that I'm saying "your RP is wrong", but the way I play and view the State is as a multi-ethnic, culturally community-oriented, competitive confederation.
the Caldari is stated to be "tolerant only of foreigners that stick by the rules"
Actually the Caldari are tolerant only of people that stick to the rules, not just foreigners. Many Guristas are an example of Caldari who do not want to stick to the rules.
The content itself makes sense if you get your heads out of the real world and in to the world of the State.
Boom: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3795&tid=6
So far, Lai Dai and Wiyrkomi have pledged to cooperate with the new body, but the other megacorporations have so far declined to comment publicly.
The article provided lacks any real follow-up describing to what extent the SLTs have grown/have authority. Certainly in KK, Lai Dai and Wiyrkomi they exist, but then they are possibly the renaming of some other security/surveillance entity that existed previous. The other five megacorporations may have actually told the SLTs to pound sand.
The Providence Directorate formed several commissions and "loyalty" courts to investigate threats to the State. This is clearly one of them, acting upon their "legal" jurisdiction.
It is far from clear that the "Appeals Court" is one of the SLTs. If the article had said "State Loyalty Tribunal" and not been vague then it would have been clear.
I understand the attempted point of the article, demonstrate the continuing growth of the CPD and Heth's power. But it fails to actually provide any useful details.
For all we know, the "Appeals Court" is a KK court trying its own employees, while a Hyasyoda and SuVee backed legal firms/societies/clubs make a big-to-do about nothing considering their opinions don't matter internal to KK. Some Scope reporter gets hold of "the story" and thinks it is big news because and attributes it to the State as a whole.
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*Face Palm*
Picard facepalm
Copycat.
Not at all, a Picard Facepalm is far more emphasized than a simple facepalm. :)
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I appreciate that Dex actually responded to the content of my message.
While they do not explicitly state it is a SLT, it is clear that Tibus Heth is changing the State. The Provists are changing the State. People have been pointing this out, in character, for years now. So perhaps you should get angry IC and not OOC?
As an addendum, it seems likely that the people arrested here are within SLT jurisdiction, that is, one of the Heth-controlled or Heth-supporting megacorporations. But that would seem to be obvious. =p
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My frustration (and some anger) is with the ambiguity of the article.
I can not respond/comment on it IC because of this ambiguity. I the player do not know how it fits into Dex's world other than the CPD has arrested some folks without them committing a criminal act (although conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime).
Knowledge characters like Dex, Svetlana, Stitcher, etc should be aware of such as what which mega's court system or which megas provide funding for the Caldari Legal Foundation or Citizen's Rights First are not in the article.
I think you are creating connections that are not obvious, unless the reader makes the same substitutions you say you have made. I have not made those substitutions because to me the article lacks the necessary details to do so.
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Those connections seemed obvious to me as well.
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Look folks, this is simple. The article is now PF. It passed through all CCP quality and content controls.
Seven years of PF doesn't get reversed by the mistake of one junior volunteer.
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Look folks, this is simple. The article is now PF. It passed through all CCP quality and content controls.
So did Empyrean Age. Being canon doesn't mean one has to like it.
The content itself makes sense if you get your heads out of the real world and in to the world of the State.
I find it hard to agree at first and I think that is mostly because of the article's suggestion that the rights and powers of individuals in the State have a larger importance than in many of my/our preconceptions of that society. Namely, the preconception that the State is a society wherein loyalty and service are so highly regarded that the dishonor of a serious accusation of treason ought be enough for a good citizen to do the right thing and "drink the (poisoned) tea".
However, on a third read, my impression is less of a new ISD writer mistaking the State for the Federation than of Tibus Heth's regime meeting more public resistance at home. That such a challenge was possible and was publicized so widely suggests the Provists' wartime carte blanche is fraying at the seams, which is sure to make a fella like you happy, Julianus. :)
Edit: Perhaps the ISD reporter (publishing for the Scope, after all) is Gallente and has simply chosen language of a Federal flavor to describe a story taking place within the world of the State. A "host of civil liberties groups" could in fact be law firms subordinate to the megacorps from which these detainees hail, could they not? Citizen's Rights First could very well be a Liberal-backed upstart put in place to make trouble for the CPD at a calculated moment. It really is the language of the article, more than its content, that offends.
You may have the right of it. I'll have to take a closer look.
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Those connections seemed obvious to me as well.
I am interested to know what in the article leads you (Jules and others) to believe that it was SLT or related courts and thus that the arrest occurred in one of the Patriot corporations, ie SLTs jurisdiction.
Using the word "court" as the connection, it is possible to claim the Scope article is inaccurate and the accused are being tried under the Lai Dai Employee Justice Code (http://"http://eve-search.com/thread/762966/page/1#4"). In this case I would respond that "The Lai Dai Appeals System rejected the premise that the CPD could not arrest those violating their employee contracts with Lai Dai."
I wish I could find the ISD article that mentioned a retired Lai Dai Judge.
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I am interested to know what in the article leads you (Jules and others) to believe that it was SLT or related courts and thus that the arrest occurred in one of the Patriot corporations, ie SLTs jurisdiction.
Because I don't read individual articles in their own little microcosm. I read them in the Universe of EVE as a whole, and with the mindset that each individual article builds off all the other PF that has come before it, especially the news articles.
Ergo, since I know about the SLTs, and it spoke of an appeal to a court, that would be the first thought that would have come to mind.
If you read the article by itself and consider it alone, sure, it's confusing and convoluted in what its getting at.
But, imo, that's a pretty silly way to go about reading any of the IC news.
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Addendum: Comparison time. It's like reading an article about Columbine that pointed out they played a lot of Counter-Strike and made maps for Counter-Strike and coming to the conclusion that they shot up the school because they played Counter-Strike.
Obviously we know that conclusion is ludicrous, because there were so many other things going on, but that's the same idea as reading this article and not making connections to previous PF simply because it's not spelled out in a single individual article.
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So, should we also assume that those arrested are actually Quafe employees based on the racial make-up of those arrested and those articles being recent as well?
I think similar logic that gets to SLT arrives at them being Quafe employees.
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Nonsense, that's a straw man and I think you're aware of it.
The logic dictates that; as the Provists initiated this purge and have complete control over the State, given the current goings on in the State, what court would oversee such an appeal for Citizens to have basic rights in this situation?
It's really not that big of a step, much less a leap. It's kinda... right there. Staring one in the face.
Personally, I think people just really want to take issue with the stuff CCP puts out most of the time. It explains the level of nitpickery.
Edited for grammar fail. Still a horrific run-on, but whatever.
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Nonsense, that's a straw man and I think you're aware of it.
Nope, why not have them be Quafe employees?
If they are Quafe employees none of the megas will try and counter the ruling in the CBT over violations of their corporate sovereignty. Quafe, no longer a State corporation, now has no recourse but to whine to the Federal government, which the State is unlikely to care about as a whole.
The logic dictates that; as the Provists initiated this purge and have complete control over the State, given the current goings on in the State, what court would oversee such an appeal for Citizens to have basic rights in this situation?
It's really not that big of a step, much less a leap. It's kinda... right there. Staring one in the face.
Your logic is based on assumptions like "the Provist have complete control over the State." I have argued repeatedly that they do not based on the continued infighting and political positioning of the various megacorporations (current goings on in the State).
Any of the Eight Megacorporations internal justice systems could be the court in question.
Until this article, the State had one extra-corporate legal judiciary, the Caldari Business Tribunal (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Business_Tribunal_(NPC_corporation)). "The Caldari Business Tribunal is the only non-corporate justice system and police agency in the Caldari State ... The Tribunal does not generally deal with crimes against the person and is not the “Supreme Court” of the Caldari State, as many outsiders assume."
The article states it was a "State appeals court;" I think it is logic dictates here that it is in fact one of the Eight Mega's internal appeals courts.
The SLTs, from the one article that actually says anything about the it, are not actually extra-corporate and require the cooperation of each megacorporation (like any court).
"So far, Lai Dai and Wiyrkomi have pledged to cooperate with the new body, but the other megacorporations have so far declined to comment publicly. Privately, sources at Hyasyoda and Nugoeihuvi have told the Scope that they perceive this as yet another attempt by Heth to encroach upon corporate sovereignty, and that they are preparing legal challenges should the State Loyalty Tribunal target their employees."
If a case were heard in the CBT it would be about corporate sov and not individual rights.
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To be fair, it could be an "appeals court" within the Tribunal system. After all, the US Federal Court system includes a variety of different tiers of courts (including appeals courts).
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Of course, why would Tibus Heth put an appeals system in a system apparently intended to enhance his power? Maybe if it were so ingrained in the Caldari mindset that you get an appeal no matter what the circumstances, but that seems implausible to me.
It's not even clear that the SLT is a court at all, at least an adversarial one as seems to be described in the latest article, since it's described as "an independent committee tasked with investigating national security threats."
Could still be an inquisitorial system though.
But then putting a security man in charge doesn't make a lot of sense.
And round and round we go.
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Could still be an inquisitorial system though.
The Tribunal's courts are modeled after the Raata Code, an inquisitorial system where the court's goal is to determine the facts of the case, not the prosecution of an individual or corporation.
I suspect most Caldari justice systems are modeled on the Raata Code. It would be similar to saying that most European justice systems are modeled on Roman (later Napoleonic Code) Law.