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[Silver Night]

News article here: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3945&tid=6

A couple thoughts. The State isn't the kinda place where I would have thought this kind of thing would be controversial. Also, I'm wondering hat court they were tried in, I guess the Provists must have their own?

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I think its controversial because it just illustrates, yet again, how the Heth's regime create ambiguous laws in the name of 'safety' to get rid of people that oppose his rule. Yet another example from the Provists to make the mega corporations shudder and hope they aren't one of the lucky individuals chosen for this witch hunt.

Note: This reminds me a lot of the rise of dictatorships in Europe in the 30s and 40s.

[orange]

ISD Khepri Shaleigh is new, as in just stated posting articles on 1 July.

The article reads too much like it was taken out of the United States.  Just replace the Caldari with the USGov and Sansha with terrorist.  The article implies there is some extra-corporate court system other than the Caldari Business Tribunal (which is a corporate to corporate court).  This is the first time I have ever seen mention of it.

The State has "civil liberty" groups?  Maybe they are Federal civil liberty groups?

Caldari Legal Foundation - is that a subsidiary of the Mercantile Club?
Citizen's Rights First - um... where were these guys 3 years ago? or even 2 years ago?  Who funds them?

Which State "appeals court"?  KK's?  SuVee's?  Hyasyoda's?  etc?

[Hamish Grayson]

*Face Palm* 

[Zag]

Tibus Heth fails as a nationalist autocrat if he cannot even succeed in quashing those pesky civil liberties kids and their pesky dog.

Seriously though, the article makes little sense to me. For one, it means that all eight Megas have effectively given the Provists the ability for them to detain any of their corporate citizens at any time, anywhere in the State. Sansha or no, I can't believe the Megacorp boards to be as that incompetent as to cede the authority to deal with their citizens as they see fit.

And when the hell did the State get a Supreme Court to dictate the Law to the Megas? Or indeed any kind of central legal code outside that of the CBT?

[Ghost Hunter]

As much as the initial prospects of this article pleased me, it does seem incredibly unCaldari in nature.

Now if they switch it over to the Federation, it works fine.

[Casiella]

orange, if you think that sort of debate never arose anywhere except in recent US events, you've missed something.

[orange]

orange, if you think that sort of debate never arose anywhere except in recent US events, you've missed something.

I don't and the statement was perception biases, I live in the US.

As much as the initial prospects of this article pleased me, it does seem incredibly unCaldari in nature.

Now if they switch it over to the Federation, it works fine.

I think the article would have had a better impact and made sense if it talked about SDII (aka Black Eagles) and the eroding of the rights of Federal citizens.

With this article we seem to be left scratching our heads and going "Caldari citizen's had rights prior to the Provist?"

[Ken]

The State isn't the kinda place where I would have thought this kind of thing would be controversial.

This, really.

I've always thought of the Provist involvement in law enforcement being something like the Gestapo.  You wouldn't take the Gestapo to court over charges of wrongful detainment.  They would take you to a shallow grave and close the case right there.  As much as I like counterpoints to the normal EVE stereotypes, this just doesn't bring the grim/dark like it should.  I mean, "civil liberties" and "State" in the same sentence...

[Seriphyn]

As much as the initial prospects of this article pleased me, it does seem incredibly unCaldari in nature.

Now if they switch it over to the Federation, it works fine.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought this. I was like "State civil rights groups WAT?"...it also makes no sense to me.

I think the article would have had a better impact and made sense if it talked about SDII (aka Black Eagles) and the eroding of the rights of Federal citizens.

With this article we seem to be left scratching our heads and going "Caldari citizen's had rights prior to the Provist?"

That's what I thought it was at first, before I opened the article and saw it was Caldari...if you remember my SDII "Operation Nightstalker" thread, I would have loved if I saw this article for the Fed instead.

Honestly, we have different factions for a reason...seeing "civil rights" in a Caldari article is just pure confusing. The State cares about a lot of things, but I'm pretty sure civil rights is not one of them.

I was actually thinking to myself that "civil rights" being introduced as a concept in the State is another Gallente cultural invasion lol

[Silver Night]

There have been protests etc about people's rights in the State before. It just wasn't, from what I recall, much of a legal issue for them to be suppressed. There isn't any right of -whatever- guaranteed in some document in the State, so far as I know?

I would think that any 'rights' that a particular peron has ould come from their corporation. A person's position as a employee of x corporation prevents another corporation (or the provists) from doing things to them. At least to a certain degree, which probably doesn't extend to protecting them if they are colluding with the Sanshas (or a credible case can be made, with probably fairly low and informal burdens of proof.)

[Alain Colcer]

Now if they switch it over to the Federation, it works fine.

Reading it, i got exactly this interpretation, SDII black eagles taking away a suspect would fit just fine.

As my Zagamesh pointed out, when did a supreme caldari court was created one wonders.

[Vikarion]

Any society or organization that embraces economic freedom must also embrace, at least to some extent, individual freedom.

This has been a core of my view (and a few other's) of the State for some time, and it would seem CCP agrees with me: the Caldari State is not an oligarchic or even autocratic organization, it's a semi-tight confederation of "states" bound by similar ideological and cultural viewpoints.

It's worth noting that many of the "protests" about workers rights and even the debate about using slave labor for rescue were all from the Caldari State. If the State is a Japanese/Chinese hybrid, as some profess, this is odd indeed. However, if the State is not merely the "Draconis Combine" by another name, then these articles, going back to the beginning of the canon, make sense.

Not that I'm saying "your RP is wrong", but the way I play and view the State is as a multi-ethnic, culturally community-oriented, competitive confederation.

Heth was frustrated by the Megas when he tried to detain citizens. So now he is pulling the "terrorist" card. I think those who note the similarity to the U.S. situation are right on - the question is, how far will he go?

[orange]

Vik,  my issue is not that it represents an erosion of their individual rights, but rather the portrayal of said rights as being something protected by a federal style supreme court versus the corporations themselves.

I do not believe your view of the State is at odds with others.  It is the facts and language surrounding this article that get to me.

view the State is as a multi-ethnic, culturally community-oriented, competitive confederation

In said confederation do you see there being a superior court to mediate individual rights?  Or would such things be left to a lower level court within the members jurisdiction?

Heth was frustrated by the Megas when he tried to detain citizens. So now he is pulling the "terrorist" card.

So the actual concern should be the CPD's continued violation of corporate sovereignty and not the erosion of individual rights as the article portrays.

At a State-level, individual rights are meaningless.  If you are caught on your own and left in the wind without a corporation laying claim to you, you are a non-citizen.

The article isn't about how KK, Lai Dai, Wiyrkomi, Hyasyoda, SuVee, Ishukone, CBD, and NoH treat their employees/citizens and whether they can arrest them without cause (erosion of individual rights), but rather how the CPD is violating rights of individual persons, which isn't the real story.

[Seriphyn]

Not that I'm saying "your RP is wrong", but the way I play and view the State is as a multi-ethnic, culturally community-oriented, competitive confederation.

This is have to wonder where you get that from...in the State, you have the Caldari, the Achur and then expat Gallente due to close economic ties. The Federation was, and is, always hammered to be the multi-ethnic society, with every race in EVE having a home there. Meanwhile, the Caldari is stated to be "tolerant only of foreigners that stick by the rules", with the Gallente being the only faction to be subject to mass immigration from the other empires. Just curious to see where you might get that interpretation from. I mean, we have separate factions for a reason, and any overlap just takes away all the flavour. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Caldari State being a monoethnic society, just like Japan IRL right?