Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Lasairiona on 30 May 2013, 07:56
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Do you think that some of the veteran RPers are too harsh on people with new or different ideas? This is kinda stemming from the stuff happening with Cynthia. I just feel that people will give it their all to push out a RPer that might stray from their norm of roleplay.
On that note, do people have to subscribe to a norm in roleplay? Are different or new ideas not acceptable? I just remember a time where things were different than they are now. I have been RPing for close to five years now so I do remember things "before."
Hope this random rambling makes sense.
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Do you think that some of the veteran RPers are too harsh on people with new or different ideas?
Only when their ideas are stupid.
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Do you think that some of the veteran RPers are too harsh on people with new or different ideas?
Only when their ideas are stupid.
What constitutes a stupid idea? If it's not stupid to the roleplayer in question, why should the greater community care?
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Huh for some reason it didnt post my reply :s
Anywho what I was suppose to say was that Going against the PF and creating Drama for the sake of drama is a quick way to get people hating you
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That was actually intended to be facetious, but since you asked..
Stupid ideas (to me) tend to be the ones that either blatantly ignore PF in order to do their own thing "because it's cool", or the ones that are done specifically to shock or be "edgy".
If you claim to be a 600 year old ancestor of Bloody Omir, who's having a secret relationship with Karin Midular's daughter and just happens to also be a high ranking member of the Guristas, then your RP is stupid.
People who demand respect by attaching a name to their day old character (Kor-Azor, Shakor, Heth, any other high profile NPC name) and claiming to be a relative, also stupid RP. By all means claim to be a relative, but until you've actually done something worthwhile, don't expect any respect.
Honestly, there is a wide ranging list of things I consider to be 'stupid ideas' but in their most basic form, it's anything that I look at and just go, "...what? (http://i.imgur.com/khQsKYP.gif)"
(edited for spelling)
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Do you think that some of the veteran RPers are too harsh on people with new or different ideas?
Only when their ideas are stupid.
What constitutes a stupid idea? If it's not stupid to the roleplayer in question, why should the greater community care?
This. Outside of god modding, why should people care. Sure, CG's stuff might have irked me and a lot of people, but who cares? They kept it mostly within their circle, did their own thing with their own people, and didn't pull any crazy god modding shit.
The whole purpose of role play in different games and settings is to utilize those settings to create a character that you either like a lot or which reflects you for whatever reasons you may have to do this. If this isn't harmful to people IG or OOG (like some people we know), then why should they be pushed out? What makes their style worth pushing out? I'm not saying I liked CG's shenanigans, but CG had a right to engage in it like anyone else.
I gotta admit, this is the big reason I don't want to take Anslo's bandages off. He has a backstory that I crafted to be scientifically accurate and something I was really interested in. To me, his backstory and character is very pliable, potentially easily influenced, and versatile because of this. But because of shit like what happened with CG, it makes me recoil from the possibility of ever having a reveal for Anslo.
Granted, I don't think CG left because of the regulars in the RP scene in Eve. If I recall, there was something else that someone else here can elaborate on. All I'll say is that in CG's case, they just fell in with the wrong, predatory crowd.
But aside from that, I feel like there is a limited vision on what people can do in RP in Eve. If it's justifiable, even if it irks, and a person isn't harming someone else in terms of harassment or god modding, why the hell should anyone try to push them out of the community? We need new blood gods dammit. I started out stupid derp/god moddy, but I learned because people were patient. Where the hell'd that patience go?
God dammit people.
/end_rant
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While I don't have any idea about the specific events and angles you are talking about, I think the answer for Eve (and pretty much any RP community) is a resounding yes. In almost any case people might want to consider being a little more open-minded. But whatthehell, I am a flamin' liberal.
However, you can also look at it in a different way - the HTFU way. Any wacky idea needs to run the gauntlet and survive it if it is to prosper. In Eve you have to walk the walk, just as you talk the talk, and it is also true in the RP community. The experience will make your idea that much sharper and make you better able to deal with its hecklers in the future. That is if you survive and avoid becoming an emotional wreck with your juices salvaged by the psychic vampires who permeate any RP community.
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Do you think that some of the veteran RPers are too harsh on people with new or different ideas?
Only when their ideas are stupid.
What constitutes a stupid idea? If it's not stupid to the roleplayer in question, why should the greater community care?
I think the issue comes from the fact that if said RPer perceives people as not caring about what they are doing then they quite often try something more extravagant in order to garner attention.
In the case of your example with CG, he repeatedly breached the fourth wall and did not take criticism and suggestions well when they were offered, instead resorting to the aforementioned cycle in order to quench his need for interaction with people. Whilst it's true that the RP community is reluctant to accept things coming from player characters that push deep into that grey area that everyone interprets differently, the issue mainly stemmed from the sheer ignorance displayed by the individual in question.
As for why the greater community should care, I'd argue that it's in their interests to assist others in furthering projects, whether they affect them specifically or not. Does a lot for the health of the group.
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Do you think that some of the veteran RPers are too harsh on people with new or different ideas? [No.] This is kinda stemming from the stuff happening with Cynthia. [What's happening with Cynthia?] I just feel that people will give it their all to push out a RPer that might stray from their norm of roleplay. [There is no norm in RP, and anyone can RP what they want. They can also accept the consequences of doing so, whatever that may be, good or ill.]
On that note, do people have to subscribe to a norm in roleplay? [Again, no.] Are different or new ideas not acceptable? [They are. Please do spice up my RP scene.] I just remember a time where things were different than they are now. I have been RPing for close to five years now so I do remember things "before." [EVE always change, so does RP and the RP scene, this is nothing new.]
Hope this random rambling makes sense.
Not to much. I would like context to what prompted this. Also, mind the replies in your quoted post.
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But aside from that, I feel like there is a limited vision on what people can do in RP in Eve. If it's justifiable, even if it irks, and a person isn't harming someone else in terms of harassment or god modding, why the hell should anyone try to push them out of the community?
Given psychology 101, I'd say because they are feeling threatened in their feeble pretense of status quo, so they have to stomp any source of creativity and individuality (and I'm not talking about Kala's definition of stupid, I agree with that) in order to upkeep it.
I agree with Lasa and Anslo. Chill out, ladies.
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Okay, had to put my son down to sleep and now I can focus, lol.
Anslo said it much better and eloquently than I could at the time.
CG is an IC/OOC friend of Lasa's. Granted, I may have only heard one side of the story, but he felt pushed out for straying from the "norm." I don't think that's right.
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Okay, had to put my son down to sleep and now I can focus, lol.
Anslo said it much better and eloquently than I could at the time.
CG is an IC/OOC friend of Lasa's. Granted, I may have only heard one side of the story, but he felt pushed out for straying from the "norm." I don't think that's right.
Still waiting on context here. What is the supposed 'norm' and what did CG do that he/she supposedly have to leave for?
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As the person who banned CG, the character was banned for IC actions in an IC channel. I did not ban the player, or remove them from OOC. The overly dramatic post here just confirms certain suspicions I had about the players motivations.
The specific reason was that they decided that it was a good idea to start threatening the family of another member of the Summit. This was after they had received numerous warnings for their behavior.
As for the rest of this, our characters are under no obligation to accept other characters for who they are. If a character constantly acts in a way that is considered irrational, or in ways that are stupid, or does anything else to alienate themselves from others, then those are the consequences of their actions.
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Okay, had to put my son down to sleep and now I can focus, lol.
Anslo said it much better and eloquently than I could at the time.
CG is an IC/OOC friend of Lasa's. Granted, I may have only heard one side of the story, but he felt pushed out for straying from the "norm." I don't think that's right.
Still waiting on context here. What is the supposed 'norm' and what did CG do that he/she supposedly have to leave for?
Zoological modifications (rabbit ears), hilarious explodey drama in their bar, the Bunny Lounge, some slave stuff, some nut jobs not liking said slave stuff, a pregnancy, and a quafe bottle with lips.
I couldn't make this up if I tried. CG was...definitely off the wall and did a few derpy things to try to get attention. But, overall, I didn't notice them breaking much PF or god modding.
Actually, looking back, why the hell did more people not laugh at this shit lol.
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As the person who banned CG, the character was banned for IC actions in an IC channel. I did not ban the player, or remove them from OOC.
I thought banning someone from the Summit implied the same regarding OOC.
Send me a mail when you unban me from the OOC in that case. Much appreciated.
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As I understood it (Anslo touched on this), there was more at play than just Cynthia exhausting her warnings from Tib about her behavior in the Summit and getting banned for threatening to kill another character's child in response to someone else getting popped on the nose for being an insensitive twit. (I was uninvolved in that, for the record - I was distracted by Silver's party that night, which was going on at the same time, and not really paying enough attention to the Summit to give it much mind; upon reviewing logs, it turned out someone had tried getting my/Morwen's attention, but not in a particularly noticeable way, so nothing happened until later when Tib got involved.)
I'm not privy to the exact details of the other stuff (whether Cynthia or someone else who is feels like elaborating on them does is up to them, though rules still apply, so take care if you decide to do so), but from what little I've been told, she ran afoul of someone who plays by the "if I can't win at RP, nobody can" method. Which sucks, and frankly I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Sofia's also touched on the issues with the character, so I won't repeat much from there. Suffice to say, people often don't respond well to shameless attention-seekers and people who ignore criticism/feedback/suggestions (valid criticism, mind) in real life - our characters are people too, so why is it so unreasonable for them to respond that way in character? If the perception is that hands were extended and slapped away, and suggestions were given and ignored, it isn't unreasonable for people to stop trying and just express irritation/frustration at the person.
I don't think quitting was a necessary step. Stopping, stepping back and actually looking at the situation, and making a genuine request for help and suggestions, would have been the better choice.
As the person who banned CG, the character was banned for IC actions in an IC channel. I did not ban the player, or remove them from OOC.
I thought banning someone from the Summit implied the same regarding OOC.
Send me a mail when you unban me from the OOC in that case. Much appreciated.
It does when the player themselves is the problem. Complaining on this forum will not get you unbanned, and when Graelyn is the one who banned you, asking Tib or any other moderator is about as useless as using a tennis racket to paddle a canoe.
Do not derail the discussion with this. I will not give you another warning.
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Now now, I don't want this to turn crappy and be catacombed. It's a legitimate question based on what I've observed.
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As the person who banned CG, the character was banned for IC actions in an IC channel. I did not ban the player, or remove them from OOC.
I thought banning someone from the Summit implied the same regarding OOC.
Send me a mail when you unban me from the OOC in that case. Much appreciated.
If you get banned for OOC reasons, then you get banned from both. You were also banned by Graelyn, so he's the guy you need to talk to!
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That's an interesting comment, Morwen. Actually, Graelyn has made violent remarks about Lasa's children before (I brushed it off). If the character isn't bothered by the remarks directed at their IC children, why should someone be banned for them?
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I don't mind IC bashing for stupidity ((i.e. "Why in the verse would you show off that severed head in the Summit? You filth!" followed by ignoring)) that doesn't lead to harassment. It can be beneficial at times to help the new person, and it falls on said new person to either take the criticism and get help OOC or just quit.
However, I was referring more to OOC shunning/cliquishness/social games. IC is IC and you get what you get, but OOC harassment, to the point of forcing people to quit for a play style that isn't harassing you majorly, can't be justified. In CG's case, I believe this is what happened. Someone decided to go after them/harass them OOC until they quit the RP scene. That, to me, is a nono.
I know who did it. I'm sure you all know who did it. That person can't be controlled, but this kinda shit has happened within our community (OOC/Backstage) despite this harassing person being absent. That's what irks me. The cold shouldering, the talking behind people's back, the ostracizing. We're a small community, why hell does shunning happen OOCly? ICly, whatever, fine. OOCly? Give me a damn break.
@Lasa: I know what they're on about and they WERE bothered by the threat.
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As the person who banned CG, the character was banned for IC actions in an IC channel. I did not ban the player, or remove them from OOC.
I thought banning someone from the Summit implied the same regarding OOC.
Send me a mail when you unban me from the OOC in that case. Much appreciated.
If you get banned for OOC reasons, then you get banned from both. You were also banned by Graelyn, so he's the guy you need to talk to!
Nope, I got permabanned by Tiberious Thessalonia for... I think it was showing a slave on camera. The OOC ban soon followed suit, without any sort of explanation.
Let's not derail the thread, poke me in game about it when you come back from work.
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That's an interesting comment, Morwen. Actually, Graelyn has made violent remarks about Lasa's children before (I brushed it off). If the character isn't bothered by the remarks directed at their IC children, why should someone be banned for them?
Its his channel so it might be hard to ban him from it :s
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That's an interesting comment, Morwen. Actually, Graelyn has made violent remarks about Lasa's children before (I brushed it off). If the character isn't bothered by the remarks directed at their IC children, why should someone be banned for them?
Its his channel so it might be hard to ban him from it :s
Isn't that just it? Do rules apply to some and not others? Like, for example, if I banned someone from Smokin' Aces for something and then I did the same thing?
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Stomping your foot and demanding love, attention and respect is the fastest way to lose it. Virtually every case of someone getting banned or being generally spat out of the community involves that person getting some flak for a real or imagined transgression, and then doubling down on it instead of seeking compromise or simply laying low.
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Roleplaying in a shared world is a collaborative activity. I don't know the circumstances here because Svetlana is antisocial and because I don't have a particular fondness for exactly this kind of RP, but generally when you are starting out you should be listening and learning a lot more than you're talking. Once you have the lay of the land you should endeavor to craft your RP so that it merges with the current consensus -- once you have mastered that, you can try pushing it -- but if you cannot convince people that what you are doing makes sense in context, then yes, you're going to look/be treated as an idiot. Welcome to society.
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Slight follow up question: Is it hard for new RPers to break into the scene, as it were?
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I don't know anything about your particular case, Lasa, and I'm guessing it's because a) you brushed it off, and b) it wasn't part of and didn't cause a shitstorm in the channel. That wasn't the case here, and Cynthia had already had a number of warnings for her behavior in the channel.
Again, I wasn't involved in her ban - or for that matter, any of her warnings, that was all Tib I believe - I'm just providing the details of the incident that resulted in it.
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As the person who banned CG, the character was banned for IC actions in an IC channel. I did not ban the player, or remove them from OOC.
I thought banning someone from the Summit implied the same regarding OOC.
Send me a mail when you unban me from the OOC in that case. Much appreciated.
Nope, I got permabanned by Tiberious Thessalonia for... I think it was showing a slave on camera. The OOC ban soon followed suit, without any sort of explanation.
Let's not derail the thread, poke me in game about it when you come back from work.
No need. Even if the IC ban wasn't there, the OOC ban is in place. It trumps the IC ban.
If you get banned for OOC reasons, then you get banned from both. You were also banned by Graelyn, so he's the guy you need to talk to!
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a quafe bottle with lips.
WAIT.
STOP THE THREAD.
A quafe bottle with lips? Like, lips on the rim of the neck? So you'd be kissing the bottle while you drink from it?
We are going to make so much fucking money.
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Once you have the lay of the land you should endeavor to craft your RP so that it merges with the current consensus
No.
No.
A thousand times no. We don't need more consensus or more of the same. Even if they eventually push it after they're 'acceptable,' why should they HAVE to conform? Especially in an RP community of a spaceship RPG of all places? Fuck the norm. Be creative and damn the torpedoes I say.
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Once you have the lay of the land you should endeavor to craft your RP so that it merges with the current consensus
No.
No.
A thousand times no. We don't need more consensus or more of the same. Even if they eventually push it after they're 'acceptable,' why should they HAVE to conform? Especially in an RP community of a spaceship RPG of all places? Fuck the norm. Be creative and damn the torpedoes I say.
Lasa murdered a Torpedo....oh wait....sorry, derailing my own thread.
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I don't think that's what Svet was saying, Anslo.
Seemed more like a "if you're going to push the boundaries, push gently at first to get your bearings rather than pulling an Elise Randolph and flying past the Line of Glory on your first day" to me. Not a "be a carbon-copy of someone else before you start improvising".
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CG is an IC/OOC friend of Lasa's. Granted, I may have only heard one side of the story, but he felt pushed out for straying from the "norm." I don't think that's right.
It was never 'straying from the norm' that bothered me about the character. The character irritated me a lot, but whatever really. Saede treated the character...like Saede would. She grudgingly gave her help a few times, but otherwise just kept her distance and occasionally berated her for doing dumb things. I had kind of hoped the player would eventually kind of 'settle down' and, while not even necessarily changing their RP, just being more tolerable to be around, but pretty much every just kept telling me "they're just a troll".
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Slight follow up question: Is it hard for new RPers to break into the scene, as it were?
It's hard to say. I'd say that "we" aren't any more or less dysfunctional than the next random internet community. Unfortunately that's a very low standard.
We're a pretty fragmented bunch. As far as I can see, there's no pervasive, active culture to recruit, mentor and educate newer people on the "proper" way to roleplay, or to get them involved in anything. There's no special attempt to exclude them either, but the basic human behaviours in a group - limited attention, frustration, guardedness due to prior bad experiences - can be enough of a wall to put many people off, I imagine.
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I don't think that's what Svet was saying, Anslo.
Seemed more like a "if you're going to push the boundaries, push gently at first to get your bearings rather than pulling an Elise Randolph and flying past the Line of Glory on your first day" to me. Not a "be a carbon-copy of someone else before you start improvising".
Alright, that can make a bit of sense. I just hate the idea that new peeps might get stagnated because of preconceptions of acceptable RP in a vidya gaem. I'm sorry if I'm being defensive, but this particular topic hits right on top of home. Creativity shouldn't be repressed because of one's fear of retribution against their new idea. It should be nurtured and guided so that it isn't beyond the bounds of the PF AND adds something awesome.
For instance, anyone with an interesting/unique background is branded as a 'special snowflake' for it. That, to me, is trying to put the character in a negative light. Why is it negative? What's wrong with something new? Not everything has to be spaecship grimdark PvP hurrhurr. Not saying anyone here in particular does that, this is just observations I've made in general over the past 6 years of playing.
...but pretty much every just kept telling me "they're just a troll".
See, shit like this is wtf man. Not YOU Saede, I mean the people who told you that and the person who pushed CG out because of their own short comings.
No, they aren't a troll gods dammit. Let them be for fuck's sake.
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Slight follow up question: Is it hard for new RPers to break into the scene, as it were?
For me, in.. What, like, April of 2011 I think, it was more of a natural merging. I joined Gradient, an immersionist corporation in September '10 and had no contact at all with the RP community at large for the first 6 months. As this was the first time I'd ever done RP ever, it was something of a learning experience and something I think I definitely benefited from. Learning the norms and expected actions of RP from people who'd been at it for years meant that I didn't make a total fool of myself when I started talking in the Summit.
Although, I've participated in my fair share of :derp: RP to be honest, and it left me with a distinctly bitter taste in my mouth and a dislike of the whole 'scene'. Plus, that side of RP caused the only truly aggressive argument I've ever had with anyone in almost 6 years of playing Eve. As far as I'm concerned, that whole side of RP is poison to character development.
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What 'scene' Kala?
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Once you have the lay of the land you should endeavor to craft your RP so that it merges with the current consensus
No.
No.
A thousand times no. We don't need more consensus or more of the same. Even if they eventually push it after they're 'acceptable,' why should they HAVE to conform? Especially in an RP community of a spaceship RPG of all places? Fuck the norm. Be creative and damn the torpedoes I say.
If you cannot be bothered to respect the environment that has been created before you, why should anyone else bother to respect your efforts to expand it? Collaboration is a two way street. If you want to do your own thing with no restrictions, write a book. Play a single player game. Whatever. But in a collaborative roleplaying environment you, by definition, cannot do your own thing.
And the reason people hate those "special snowflakes" is because they act like just saying they are so-and-so's son or whatever is a reason to respect their character, when they (the player) have never done anything for the community or the world. Nuh uh. Eve is a game where it's what you do that matters, not what you say. Start from zero and build up, that's how it works for everyone. If you can't do shit in game (including good character development, I don't mean necessarily pewpew in space), then don't expect anyone to give you any credit. Put up or shut up.
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What 'scene' Kala?
Read between the lines, grasshopper. The answer is right in front of you.
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What 'scene' Kala?
I'm not entirely sure how to name it. There is a definite subset of Rpers around who are primarily involved in ERP, "shocking" actions and attention seeking etc. I'm also skirting dangerously around YDIW already, so I'll stop there I think.
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If you cannot be bothered to respect the environment that has been created before you, why should anyone else bother to respect your efforts to expand it?
Why do we have to obey some frivolous tit-for-tat ideology instead of fostering growth of the environment and those within it both old and new?
Collaboration is a two way street. If you want to do your own thing with no restrictions, write a book. Play a single player game. Whatever. But in a collaborative roleplaying environment you, by definition, cannot do your own thing.
Yes? You can? Like I said, let them be creative, let them do what they want and get their feet wet. If they don't take criticism then they suffer the consequences. But for those willing to listen and learn and adapt the unique story or RP to the situation, they add some great stuff to the community. I'm not saying to just let people go out and god mod and do PF breaking stuff. I'm saying that newbies shouldn't be afraid to try something new and instead, seek acceptance by choosing an 'acceptable template' so they they can have people to interact with. That's not fun, that's boring and predictable.
And the reason people hate those "special snowflakes" is because they act like just saying they are so-and-so's son or whatever is a reason to respect their character, when they (the player) have never done anything for the community or the world.
No, it isn't limited to that. It's literally ANYONE who isn't just a pod pilot. Implants? SPECHUL SNOWFLAEK! Surgery? SPECHUL SNOWFLAEK! Eccentric Philanthropist? SPECHUL SNOWFLAEK!!
Fuck that noise.
Eve is a game where it's what you do that matters, not what you say. Start from zero and build up, that's how it works for everyone. If you can't do shit in game (including good character development, I don't mean necessarily pewpew in space), then don't expect anyone to give you any credit. Put up or shut up.
Yes, actions have consequences. Like I said, I'm not saying people shouldn't call 'wat' level...I dunno, reality bending demi-gods for instance...out for what they are. But those people who are willing to accept criticism should be helped. Who knows what they'll do.
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I think you are over reacting Anslol.
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I think you are over reacting Anslol.
To an extent maybe, but I've seen the cold shoulder/shunning/gossiping ooc bullshit, and it just burns me. (OOC as in out of character, not the channel).
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Is the RP scene in Eve insular? To a degree, yes. This is common in pretty much any game where there are a lot of trolls and not a lot of support for the RP community by the game operators against said trolling. On Lord of the Rings Online, for instance, there are two servers with significant RP populations. One is the old U.S. "RP Encouraged" server (a pretty meaningless label in this context, as Turbine didn't do anything to stop people from trolling the RP community), the other was the old European RP server (where RP guidelines and considerations were officially established). On the RP Encouraged server, the RP community tended to be quite insular and difficult to break into - deep RP tended to happen within kinships (the LOTRO version of corps). On the pure RP server, the RP community was far more open, and there was far more happening on a public level. I think a big part of this was that the server GMs themselves could be counted on to deal with things like Dwarves named "Spanky McBottom" jumping up and down like jackhammers in the middle of your tender RP moments.
Eve is a fairly troll-heavy game, and we in the RP community tend to be easy targets for the sort of folks who get a kick out of ruining other people's fun. The insular-ness of the RP community here is just a natural progression of that. That said, I don't think we're a particularly hard RP community to break into. Where, I think, CG went wrong was when they started seeing the rest of the RP community as one big adversary. Breaking into any RP community is sort of a process of courtship. It may be long and drawn out. It may simply be a matter of eyes meeting across a crowded room. But it is a sort of courtship.
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That is an excellent way to put it Shin...unfortunately, some people are horrible at courtship. :P
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Courtship?..
...so uh...
Can I get yo numbah?
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Breaking into any RP community is sort of a process of courtship.
But is this particular one tsundere, yandere, or just another heartbreaker?
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Breaking into any RP community is sort of a process of courtship.
But is this particular one tsundere, yandere, or just another heartbreaker?
Persistence.
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Breaking into any RP community is sort of a process of courtship.
But is this particular one tsundere, yandere, or just another heartbreaker?
Heartbreaker (damn space lesbians).
DISCLAIMER: THE ABOVE IS A JOKE PLEASE DON'T NAIL ME TO A CROSS.
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Breaking into any RP community is sort of a process of courtship.
But is this particular one tsundere, yandere, or just another heartbreaker?
Heartbreaker (damn space lesbians).
DISCLAIMER: THE ABOVE IS A JOKE PLEASE DON'T NAIL ME TO A CROSS.
Apparently, no one is nailing you at all :twisted:
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Breaking into any RP community is sort of a process of courtship.
But is this particular one tsundere, yandere, or just another heartbreaker?
Heartbreaker (damn space lesbians).
DISCLAIMER: THE ABOVE IS A JOKE PLEASE DON'T NAIL ME TO A CROSS.
Apparently, no one is nailing you at all :twisted:
Bitch...either going for stubble and angles or women. No room for us Gallente....bitches and hoes man.
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Breaking into any RP community is sort of a process of courtship.
But is this particular one tsundere, yandere, or just another heartbreaker?
Heartbreaker (damn space lesbians).
DISCLAIMER: THE ABOVE IS A JOKE PLEASE DON'T NAIL ME TO A CROSS.
Apparently, no one is nailing you at all :twisted:
Bitch...either going for stubble and angles or women. No room for us Gallente....bitches and hoes man.
Gallente don't NEED women, mate. You, uh, you doin' anything tonight?
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Go away...
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Don't be like that Anslo, it's a compliment!
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There are some people who seem to occasionally lose the difference between "PF", "More or less established player-produced IC stuff" and, particularly, "the bits of PF I have read and chosen to prioritise over other bits of PF".
Even if there is something in PF, RP is not a quiz, and picking on someone because they contravened something written six years ago, buried in the fourteenth paragraph of the dullest chronicle in history (spurious example, but less exaggerated than I'd like) is straightforward mean.
There also exists a nasty habit of badmouthing RP in the OOC channel while it's going on. Please can people stop doing it?
To summarise - most people are lovely, some people are mostly lovely but occasionally go off a bit, there are a few people who behave very poorly and can give the whole community a really negative feeling.
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Don't be like that Anslo, it's a compliment!
*sniff* Yes, loneliness is a compliment...
/me goes to pout in misery.
@Laria: I like you. You said what I feel in a much nicer way.
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As a general consciousnes raiser, though: consider the last time 1) you had some kind of interaction.. 2) that was more meaningful than a Summit slapfight.. 3) with someone who has been registered on Backstage for less than three months. Or, heck, six.
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As a general consciousnes raiser, though: consider the last time 1) you had some kind of interaction.. 2) that was more meaningful than a Summit slapfight.. 3) with someone who has been registered on Backstage for less than three months. Or, heck, six.
Erm wha?...elaborate?
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I don't see the issue, and I think Svetlana, Shintoko and Kala have phrased it well already.
You can do what you want, but if you want attention from a lot of people you kind of have to cater to the audience. If you do your super edgy stuff and more or less no one enjoys it/takes part in it, well, maybe it just was too far out.
Either adapt or form your own group of likeminded people. 'The RP Community' certainly can't forbid someone from playing the game the way he wants to. If it's of interest to someone, interaction will appear.
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Hmm ok I have tried several times to respond to this and keep failing because, honestly, I don't know the full situation anyway. I have only seen what exists in this thread and it looks like only half the story so I guess I won't comment on this and simply weigh in with my opinion on the general topic of roleplay policing and an RP community seeming to force people out if they don't 'conform'.
First of all, I do have a dislike of RP policing and have seen it in eve on the odd occasion in the years I have played. It sucks.
Of course it is subjective and always on a case by case basis when someone decides to push people out and if they are doing it from an IC or OOC sense. If it is IC then... ok echo what Svet and a few others have said a out a general view of the world and people flaying way beyond it. Of course the end result is that people will distance themselves or even vocally bash said RPer. This is not all that wrong, but sad to see happen. It is the nature of the beast and depends on your character.
In CG's case, I would see her in the summit being pretty odd and kooky and as far as Darius was concerned he would roll his eyes and say very little as it was all a bit too silly for him. I would say little because Darius had little to say to someone making a point of her bunny ears bopping around and flopping about in a goofy way.
I can imagine that some characters would definitely feel the need to eventually say something, having reached their limit. As long as this is something a character would do then, well, ok. It might not end well but if all is in RP then no real foul.
I can also imagine, though, some people would use their character to justify personal attacks on someone, not just specifically in CG's position but other RP angles as well, because of their OOC opinion about the character. Or even the person behind the character. Let us not deny this. It can happen and it does happen. And sadly, this is a very grey area that people cannot really prove one way or the other if it is the case. But yes, it really does happen and I have seen it happen several times. Only for the player behind the character to turn around when challenged OOC about this and say 'lol, iz only ArrPee! Chill!' Like it gets them off lightly or something.
Some might call me cynical for thinking this does happen, and of course this is still a rarity. Even I am not that jaded or bitter-RP-vet to think it is common in all RP.
Then, of course, we have the issue where people will OOC bitch about someone else's character for being way to abnormal and try to tell them they are doing it wrong. Again, rare to see but it does happen. And again, it is sad.
Overall, people have the option of simply ignoring outlandish RP with fantastical stories that are completely BS. They hardly affect you if you choose not to let them as no one can enshrine their character in any canonical sense in EVE lore. So maybe let things like this go? It is really not that hard.
And speaking as someone who...
[attached] a name to their day old character (Kor-Azor, Shakor, Heth, any other high profile NPC name) and claiming to be a relative, also stupid RP. By all means claim to be a relative, but until you've actually done something worthwhile, don't expect any respect.
...nearly when down this road when I was new, (yes, look at my name, Shakor! :p ) and I was a rookie to the whole RP thing, I would say giving people a chance here and there and giving them space to spin their wheels is never a bad thing.
Of course, again as Svet suggested people should do, I came to a conclusion soon after making my character, and having plotted out a backstory relating him to Maleatu Shakor, that I might be shooting way too grand and quickly dumped the idea, but the character was made. I had begun working things in game outside of the major RP scene, which was quite small at the time, and redirected my character arc. Maybe I dodged a bullet by doing this? I would not like to think that I was being gunned for by people who find my early wide-eyed fantasy somehow wrong down to the very core, but now I have to stick with it because I chose to run with it. If only I had the benefit of years of roleplay at my back, and an understanding of the social dynamics of how other RPers' characters would interact with mine...
So yeah... live and let live and all that. Either way, eve has lost a roleplayer and a character that, goofy or not, could interact with us all and give our characters an experience. Even if it is one where out characters dislike them intensely. This is never a bad thing and sometimes I see people resistant to anything that could intrude on their own narrative they have in mind. They don't want people butting in who are abnormal, because they have to do things with their character to respond to them.
... I am ranting. I will stop now. :P
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Courtship?..
...so uh...
Can I get yo numbah?
Flash in the pan, Anslo. Shin shows up at your private beach with a bottle of Apua'a (you know how hard it is to get that stuff?) and you drift off in a maudlin funk. :D
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My general thoughts on the subject, not pertaining to CG :
Roleplay is a cooperative aspect; it is at its heart, a play upon a stage and we are its actors. In roleplaying with an individual, they are given an equal share of your story as much as you are given theirs. Fundamentally speaking, if you do not wish to roleplay with someone they are not involved in your story.
Newer persons to the 'established community' have little reputation to gauge for what they bring to the table. If they present themselves in ways the community operates, they are easier to evaluate and take in. If they behave in ways different from community expectations, it is more difficult to determine their worth. Thus, in certain respects, persistence is important as much as social awareness.
The backbone of any good community is the relationship they have at the out of character level. Not in the sense everyone is friends or Friday night drinks buddies, but people are known values. If a random alt of a person I considered excellent showed up, I would be likely to engage them. I have reasonable expectations that what will follow is to my standard, and life will be good. Contrast with a character of unknown origin; I most likely will not seek to be involved with them beyond a cold shoulder. My time might be wasted if they prove to be of undesirable values. Thus, I have to consider if my time spent on that risk can be worthwhile or not.
Others are considerably more open, mind you, but you can understand from the view point of someone who is insular.
In this respect, then, the community can be 'hard to get into', but only in so far as every other community. If you wish to participate in the community, you need to establish yourself with reputation that you want and is also attractive. If you are one who disregards norms, you will attract those who also disregard norms and repel those who follow norms. If you are one who prefers partners over community, you will attract partners and not free-floaters. So on, so forth. Like attract like is a very powerful social mechanism.
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So...
We ARE talking about the same person who posted pics of them peeing on stuff in OOC (with strategically placed bars over the meatybits)?
Yeah, that got them on the shortlist, IE if this person causes trouble, don't consult me first, deal with it.
It's good to examine intolerance by a community. This individual, however, is probably the wrong martyr for the cause. When someone creates an absolutely polarizing reputation in a very short time, the only way intolerance becomes an issue is if it we are literally inundated with it. I don't think that's the case here, but rather the community's response to a character that easily hit 8 of 10 items on the RPer Facepalm Checklist.
I wasn't bothered too much by CG, but I was concerned when I got so many people pulling me aside in private convoes and teamspeak asking me to look deeper. My response, even to my mods, was to wait and see. Still, in a couple of weeks, complaints were reaching Morwen Lagann levels. That's impressive.
[Section redacted]
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graelyn
i never asked anyone to do anything.
and i have no corpmates.
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graelyn
i never asked anyone to do anything.
and i have no corpmates.
Fair enough. I'll remove anything related to that.
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I'll also mention something important here.
There are folks in this community, well liked folks, who initially annoyed the shit out of everyone. :D
Some of them have come a long way.
Nothing is permanent, not even reputation or exclusion.
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I wish there were a "like" button here, because I would totally be clicking it for what Ghost wrote.
Reading it reminded me of something I tried in Everquest II, when I wanted to break into the (extremely long established and hugely convoluted) RP community there. I had created a Dark Elf assassin from Freeport (EQ II Dark Elves are roughly the same as Drow in D&D, while Freeport is an ironically named city ruled by the iron fist of a dictator of Putinesque proportions). My first post in the RP community forums for the server I was on was basically "New villain available for your RP needs - I have created a new evil character, and I'm interested in getting involved in the RP community. If you need a villain, please contact me. I'm willing to tailor my character to suit." I ended up with this almost Diana Kimlike checkist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkist), and had a wonderful time RPing with folks there. That worked well enough that I repeated the strategy in Star Trek Online (respectively, a Klingon growing disgusted with the weakness tolerated within the Empire; a Cardassian refugee trying to make his way in a hostile society; an Andorian who wants nothing more than to settle down and raise a family, yet is willing to set that aside in the face of the growing Borg threat; and an Orion smuggler trying to set up a channel for trading Federation prisoners of war as slaves) and Lord of the Rings Online (An Elf message bearer reluctantly drawn into the larger struggle as a result of an incident while delivering documents to a small Dunedain group in the Lone Lands).
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Courtship?..
...so uh...
Can I get yo numbah?
Flash in the pan, Anslo. Shin shows up at your private beach with a bottle of Apua'a (you know how hard it is to get that stuff?) and you drift off in a maudlin funk. :D
IC: Depression
OOC: It was 1:30 am and I had work FFS DDD:< COME TONIGHT
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Shin drank half the bottle with Katarina before the Minmatar contingent went predictably lateral. She then chewed them out for crapping all over your hospitality, stomped off back to her shuttle (no easy thing to do, considering she was barefoot), and drank the rest on the way home.
She'll be back, though. She enjoyed being able to just sit and talk with folks she'd normally be shooting at. She thinks that's a valuable thing.
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Slight follow up question: Is it hard for new RPers to break into the scene, as it were?
No. I managed to get a ton of RP right off the bat.
It is, however, very easy for new characters by new players to piss people off. The combination of ignorance of lore and not understanding the social web is a problematic one.
I also feel the need to link the geek social fallacies (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html) site.
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Slight follow up question: Is it hard for new RPers to break into the scene, as it were?
No. I managed to get a ton of RP right off the bat.
It is, however, very easy for new characters by new players to piss people off. The combination of ignorance of lore and not understanding the social web is a problematic one.
This, pretty much. It feels a little like walking into a place and smashing all the furniture when new players with new characters come in, sometimes. Sometimes though they take their time, get a feel for things, and then fit themselves right into the evolving dynamic.
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What if they steal furniture...
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1. These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.
2. No one can force anyone to do anything, it's text on a screen.
3. 90% of RPers act within a pretty standard range of behavior, interaction, and general getting along. 90% of new RPers on the scene show an interest in that same range of behavior, and are usually welcomed. However, there's always the small minority of special people bringing the derp who feel they need to be snowflakes outside of the normal framework of behavior.
It's like when you are a child playing an imaginary game with other kids, maybe you are all superheroes or whatever. 90% of the kids work within the rules of the game and play well together, but there's always -that one kid- who has to be special and is immune from the rules. NO WAY IM INVINCIBLE AND I KILL YOU ALL WITH MY SPECIAL POWERS. PAY ATTENTION TO ME. MY MOM SAYS IM THE BEST.
Whenever I see some RPer pull random shit out of their ass and act like an idiot, I'm reminded of said child.
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1. These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.
This.
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1. These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.
This.
Confirming this.
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1. These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.
This.
Confirming this.
You made an account to confirm one post? Seriously?
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1. These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.
This.
Confirming this.
You made an account to confirm one post? Seriously?
It was a good post.
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1. These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.
This.
No.
While it can happen, it is not systematic. The community itself can be the symptom, and people of the community are not always to blame, but more social standards and fucked up human things in general.
So eventually it is normal to see inquiries in both ways.
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1. These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.
This.
No.
While it can happen, it is not systematic. The community itself can be the symptom, and people of the community are not always to blame, but more social standards and fucked up human things in general.
So eventually it is normal to see inquiries in both ways.
Nope.
There is a social contract that we all participate in if we want to be treated with fairness and respect.
If you want to hold a job in real life you have to abide by societal behavior rules.
If you want other people to treat you decently, you have to abide by societal behavior rules.
Do you have the freedom to act like a shit and be crazy and yell at people walking by on the sidewalk? You sure do, but by doing so you forfeit your chances at being treated in a civilized manner.
RPers are the same way. You act in the same region of behavior as most people, then most people are extremely patient and forgiving and willing to meet you half way.
You step outside the social contract and you will be ostracized, ignored, and likely barred access to the peer group.
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Then if it's so similar to RL, what's the point of RPing at all when in a supposedly futuristic and alien culture, everything is basically the same as RL in terms of social items?
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1. These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.
This.
No.
While it can happen, it is not systematic. The community itself can be the symptom, and people of the community are not always to blame, but more social standards and fucked up human things in general.
So eventually it is normal to see inquiries in both ways.
Nope.
There is a social contract that we all participate in if we want to be treated with fairness and respect.
If you want to hold a job in real life you have to abide by societal behavior rules.
If you want other people to treat you decently, you have to abide by societal behavior rules.
Do you have the freedom to act like a shit and be crazy and yell at people walking by on the sidewalk? You sure do, but by doing so you forfeit your chances at being treated in a civilized manner.
RPers are the same way. You act in the same region of behavior as most people, then most people are extremely patient and forgiving and willing to meet you half way.
You step outside the social contract and you will be ostracized, ignored, and likely barred access to the peer group.
I was not referring to basic rules of conduct. I was referring to social shit like echo chambers and the likes. I did not get a job because I hang out with my coworker after work to have a drink (I rarely do). I did not get a job because I shared everyone's tastes. While I actually do in some cases, it's not always true, and I bet it's even less true for most of you at work.
I got my job because I had skills and was able to conform to basic rules of conduct.
Comparing basic social rulesets with mob rule is a fallacy to my opinion.
And I am not defending CG, I barely know the player and the character. However, I am defending myself here since I got in a similar situation a year ago.
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Then if it's so similar to RL, what's the point of RPing at all when in a supposedly futuristic and alien culture, everything is basically the same as RL in terms of social items?
Thats the charm of EVE, humans are humans even 20k years into the future.
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Then if it's so similar to RL, what's the point of RPing at all when in a supposedly futuristic and alien culture, everything is basically the same as RL in terms of social items?
The imaginary sandbox we all interact in is huge, with amazing possibilities and a million different choices to make for character backgrounds, personalities, and everything else.
Within the sort of generally agreed framework and backgrounds set up by years of PF.
"I'm the orphan son of a family of prospectors killed in a Gurista raid 20 years ago and I've dedicated my new capsuleer life to wiping them out"
Super! Have fun, here's your cake.
"I'm the illegitimate son of Jamyl and Tibus Heth, who is also psychic, and I'm immune from dying, ever, and I've also made a special clone that no one else can that's 35 feet tall with howitzers for arms, and I own 6 planets (that you don't know about), and I've been to Earth, like 6 times. Also I'm -crazy- and you can watch me derp out in the summit every night!"
"No thanks, go make a private channel and do you thing there, no one will want to interact with that, because it shits in our mutually created RP pool."
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While it can be a two-way street, Lyn, when the person picking up their toys and going elsewhere refuses to engage their peers to get advice or suggestions on how to improve their situation (or worse, asks for help but rejects or ignores everything out of hand), the onus isn't on the community's end to wonder what they did wrong.
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Then if it's so similar to RL, what's the point of RPing at all when in a supposedly futuristic and alien culture, everything is basically the same as RL in terms of social items?
I don't think Silas is advocating that characters be held to real world social norms. If that were the case, playing a slaver would be a big no-go.
We're talking about the players having to fit in with other players.
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Lyn it might be a language wording, I don't mean 'social' as in hanging out and having drinks, I mean basics of conduct that is acceptable.
You would not get your job if you acted outside of that.
Sometimes people are so valuable that they can ignore these rules, like the genius who everyone can't stand to speak with, or the professional athlete who is an asshole but is so good that they get away with it.
Most of us aren't so special and have to act within boundaries of behavior.
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That's what I said above, that's the crux of the matter. Some people here are talking about basic social rulesets and other about echo chambers and a general way of doing things that is commonly accepted as politically correct.
While it can be a two-way street, Lyn, when the person picking up their toys and going elsewhere refuses to engage their peers to get advice or suggestions on how to improve their situation (or worse, asks for help but rejects or ignores everything out of hand), the onus isn't on the community's end to wonder what they did wrong.
As I said, I was not referring to CG case. Of course you are right, I never said the contrary.
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OW.
I feel pointed sticks.
Someone please clarify: did i ever do anything that broke lore? when did I say I was a special snowflake? was there ever a claim that i was anyone's anyone?
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Slight follow up question: Is it hard for new RPers to break into the scene, as it were?
I certainly had no problems breaking into various RP circles when I actually found out about them. I'm not sure if my experience here is typical or not, but I can quite clearly attribute my "arrival" on the RP scene (in general, in various circles) with forcing myself to be active on the IGS. Prior to ever knowing about the OOC channel, the Summit, this site, or really knowing any other Roleplayers in the game, I followed the IGS and threw my unsolicited opinions right out into the open while still developing my internal idea and image for Uraniae.
Eventually I had people take notice of the IGS posts and reply, there were some debates and conversations, and in the end someone finally pulled me into an IC channel in game. From there I spread like a virus to other channels, both IC and OOC. For the most part I sat back quietly and observed each new channel and group of people, trying to get a feel for how they would react to various things, and more importantly how my character would act in such company. Now, I'll admit my first big splash in RP was in the midst of a Revan Nefaris run event and there is some obvious IC stigma there, as well as some OOC issues that linger, but I have to say that by and large the RP community welcomed me with open arms (or grasping tendrils.)
As for the rest of the thread's topic... I have little to judge on for it as I've been rather inactive. I think my feelings are summed up well enough by others such as Ghost, Silas, Makkal, and others making their points.
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Side note.
There are a LOT of analogies being tossed around this thread. Some of them are extreme analogies, like Silas' above. I have to question to relevance of using that magnitude of metaphor here... because while it's amusing and gets your point across, I don't think it's really all that applicable to our community.
In my time in the RP community I've never seen a 35 foot clone with arm howitzers, or invulnerable space psychics who are the direct child of major lore characters.
I have seen animal body-mods, revealing clothing and advertised promiscuity, and attention seeking characters who do silly things.
Sure, it's great to use a metaphor like that above... but how often can we really apply it to what's going on? I think it would be more helpful if we paid attention to what's actually being done in the scene, respectfully of course, using real examples. I realize the use of extreme metaphors may be an attempt to avoid being catacombed for YDIW... but it's starting to be useless.
Main Post.
Many of the posts in this thread have touched on a subject that's worth looking closely at. It isn't the initial things a player or character does to earn the ire of the community, but rather how they percieve and react to the reactions of others. This is the important part.
To us, we see the player seemingly ignoring our advice and continuing to do things in their own way. I have to question if that's really the case. It is perhaps more likely that they aren't ignoring us, but rather failing to correctly understand and/or apply the advice given to them. When they attempt to change their behavior, they either make a wholly different mistake or they make the same mistake again.
I would like to suggest, the CG issue is a case of the community failing to provide useful advice. Some people may have convo'd CG and spoken at length about what was going on, why it was generating negative feedback, and how best to avoid the cycle. That's entirely possible, but I know for a fact that there are plenty of 'advice givers' in our community who are frankly terrible at giving advice or speaking with upset people. Either they are too harsh (causing a defensive and closed-minded posture from the listener), too nice (validating or reinforcing bad behavior), use too much meme jargon and jokes (confusing the real advice), or other issues.
If you feel you may be one of those people, consider how often your advice works. If it isn't often, you may be bad at giving it.
I want to warn other members of this community against simply assuming a person is 'too dumb' or thickheaded to heed advice. Few (if any) of us are professional therapists, orators, psychiatrists/psychologists, or otherwise properly educated to address somebody one on one and correctly state exactly what is wrong and how to fix it. We should not automatically assume that our advice, if we give it, was sound and delivered appropriately. We should not assume the other person was simply too thick to take it.
This post is getting rather long, so I'm going to end it here.
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I think the use of metaphor is to avoid directly calling anyone out and having the post moderated for YDIW.
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OW.
I feel pointed sticks.
Someone please clarify: did i ever do anything that broke lore? when did I say I was a special snowflake? was there ever a claim that i was anyone's anyone?
As far as I know, you did no such thing.
In fact, I didn't know there was any OOC issue with you until you 'quit' last night. Now I see you making threads and then deleting the original post, and making vaguely accusatory posts toward the entire community.
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OW.
I feel pointed sticks.
Someone please clarify: did i ever do anything that broke lore? when did I say I was a special snowflake? was there ever a claim that i was anyone's anyone?
I didn't see your name anywhere in my post. I'm talking 'in general' as this is a common thing with certain types of people. If you feel it relates to you, then think about why that is.
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Do you think that some of the veteran RPers are too harsh on people with new or different ideas?
Only when their ideas are stupid.
What constitutes a stupid idea? If it's not stupid to the roleplayer in question, why should the greater community care?
I think the issue comes from the fact that if said RPer perceives people as not caring about what they are doing then they quite often try something more extravagant in order to garner attention.
In the case of your example with CG, he repeatedly breached the fourth wall and did not take criticism and suggestions well when they were offered, instead resorting to the aforementioned cycle in order to quench his need for interaction with people. Whilst it's true that the RP community is reluctant to accept things coming from player characters that push deep into that grey area that everyone interprets differently, the issue mainly stemmed from the sheer ignorance displayed by the individual in question.
As for why the greater community should care, I'd argue that it's in their interests to assist others in furthering projects, whether they affect them specifically or not. Does a lot for the health of the group.
This is exactly what's wrong with CG. And yet the mods decided to slap me and kill my post. If my posts RE: CG were slapped, why isn't this entire damn thread slapped as well?
Double standards.
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Is there anyone in this thread who doesn't think everyone is against them?
Hands? Anyone?
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Side note.
There are a LOT of analogies being tossed around this thread. Some of them are extreme analogies, like Silas' above. I have to question to relevance of using that magnitude of metaphor here... because while it's amusing and gets your point across, I don't think it's really all that applicable to our community.
In my time in the RP community I've never seen a 35 foot clone with arm howitzers, or invulnerable space psychics who are the direct child of major lore characters.
I have seen animal body-mods, revealing clothing and advertised promiscuity, and attention seeking characters who do silly things.
Sure, it's great to use a metaphor like that above... but how often can we really apply it to what's going on? I think it would be more helpful if we paid attention to what's actually being done in the scene, respectfully of course, using real examples. I realize the use of extreme metaphors may be an attempt to avoid being catacombed for YDIW... but it's starting to be useless.
People spring up on a very regular basis claiming to be direct family members of PF lore characters. I think we had a new Kor-Azor in the Summit just a day or two ago.
We have at least one capsuleer with 10ft tall special clones, although I believe I've seen more.
What we have the most of though is 'I'm a special case' due to background fiction, rather than "I'm a special case" due to in-game actions, relationships, and building stories with other players. That's the problem, and my main beef with this sort of thing.
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Is there anyone in this thread who doesn't think everyone is against them?
Hands? Anyone?
I don't think YOU are against me, you old Amarr dog you. *bats eyelashes*
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Is there anyone in this thread who doesn't think everyone is against them?
Hands? Anyone?
/me raises hand
I know they're against me :yar:
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Is there anyone in this thread who doesn't think everyone is against them?
Hands? Anyone?
STOP OPPRESSING ME!!!!
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Is there anyone in this thread who doesn't think everyone is against them?
Hands? Anyone?
I feel well accepted by the community. Sometimes worried about the space lesbian thing, but overall I am comfortable and think I'm seen in a positive light by a majority of other players.
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Is there anyone in this thread who doesn't think everyone is against them?
Hands? Anyone?
I honestly feel as though everyone likes me.
On an intellectual level, I know that's bullshit, but I find the idea of people not thinking I'm awesome a touch bewildering.
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I'm plotting against all of you.
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Is there anyone in this thread who doesn't think everyone is against them?
Hands? Anyone?
o/ (that's me putting my hand up)
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For a slightly more serious answer, I do tend to feel that most people in the community like me. Although, I have the distinct feeling that there have been so many new people in the last 8 months that when I finally come back I won't know half of the people in the Summit.
That should be fun.
I like new people :twisted:
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I honestly feel as though everyone likes me.
On an intellectual level, I know that's bullshit, but I find the idea of people not thinking I'm awesome a touch bewildering.
Everyone lurves you shut your word hole 8)
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Real talk:I know a lot of people hate me. And you all wonder why I'm paranoid, thinking I don't know. No, I'm not kidding. Yes, I'm serious. Sad, ain't it? :(
I know it's my fault, no one else's really. Let this forever stand as a testament and warning to new coming RP'ers; DO NOT BE ME.
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1. These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.
This.
Pretty much. Tolerance goes only so far, and if we are to have new RP'ers merged into our 'norm' or whatever it would work that they are not made of poison.
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Then if it's so similar to RL, what's the point of RPing at all when in a supposedly futuristic and alien culture, everything is basically the same as RL in terms of social items?
The imaginary sandbox we all interact in is huge, with amazing possibilities and a million different choices to make for character backgrounds, personalities, and everything else.
Within the sort of generally agreed framework and backgrounds set up by years of PF.
"I'm the orphan son of a family of prospectors killed in a Gurista raid 20 years ago and I've dedicated my new capsuleer life to wiping them out"
Super! Have fun, here's your cake.
"I'm the illegitimate son of Jamyl and Tibus Heth, who is also psychic, and I'm immune from dying, ever, and I've also made a special clone that no one else can that's 35 feet tall with howitzers for arms, and I own 6 planets (that you don't know about), and I've been to Earth, like 6 times. Also I'm -crazy- and you can watch me derp out in the summit every night!"
"No thanks, go make a private channel and do you thing there, no one will want to interact with that, because it shits in our mutually created RP pool."
It's a bit depressing how fast thsi tread moves on because by now every time I want to respond to anything I just read a little further down and it's been handled, all I got left is "this.".
^This.
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Wow, 8 pages in 8 hours. Almost worthy of the old Chatsubo.
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Wow, 8 pages in 8 hours. Almost worthy of the old Chatsubo.
Nothing like a healthy discussion :P
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I have seen animal body-mods, revealing clothing and advertised promiscuity, and attention seeking characters who do silly things.
Oh, goodness gracious! Revealing clothing? Advertised promiscuity? Whatever will they think of next? Narcotics? Staying out past curfew?!
Main Post.
[Excellent points being made]
Seriously, yes. How you respond to standoffish/hostile reactions to RP is critical. If you let it all roll off your back, and find people who are chill with your RP, or else tone down certain aspects of it to accommodate the hostile RPers when they are around (and that's important, because a lot of people don't actually care one way or the other), you are going to have a pretty good time of it, and so is everyone else.
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Guys, I am pretty sure there's a middle ground.
I am NOT for roasting new RPers, or even established ones, because they go OTT once or twice. It happens. Once in a while, something "OTT" can be a simple way to break the normal routine, a character built around an unusual or unorthodox hook adds a new element of depth and breadth.
Awesome.
People with established patterns of What the Fuck (you ALL know the kind of people I mean) and who have repeatedly done things solely to offend, shock, force, dramabomb, whatever the usual channels, over a length of months and/or years, are to be hit with shovels.
Off the (( supposed)) main topic here, but I have no idea why fingers began to be pointed at CG, but I think she's ok, mas o menos. A bit unorthodox, and blowing the same club up 3 times is kinda much, but, I saw no need for ostracism or bannings for anything, and still dont.
Everyone dogpiling on one person is shitty. Dont.
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I kinda caught up...
I don't think anyone is against me....maybe I'm naive, lol!
On another note, I'm glad I made an interesting thread!
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Guys, I am pretty sure there's a middle ground.
Yes. Absolutely flabbergasted by the remarks of "Oh, it's not us, it's them". Fine, it could be, but is there not just some capacity for even a little self-critique?
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Yes. Absolutely flabbergasted by the remarks of "Oh, it's not us, it's them". Fine, it could be, but is there not just some capacity for even a little self-critique?
Here's a hint. If 90% of the community is reacting negatively, chances are you're doing something wrong. There's nothing wrong with encouraging self-critique, but rarely are all of the people so very wrong.
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[mod]We are seeing some borderline commentary leading to possible derailment/flamebaiting. Calm it down somewhat before we put the brakes on the whole thread.[/mod]
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We are seeing some borderline commentary leading to possible derailment/flamebaiting. Calm it down somewhat before we put the brakes on the whole thread.
Yes, please. Be good peoples. I like my thread intact.
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Yes. Absolutely flabbergasted by the remarks of "Oh, it's not us, it's them". Fine, it could be, but is there not just some capacity for even a little self-critique?
Here's a hint. If 90% of the community is reacting negatively, chances are you're doing something wrong. There's nothing wrong with encouraging self-critique, but rarely are all of the people so very wrong.
I wasn't aware truth is absolute just because the majority say it is.
Again, this is just another example of Internet Polarization. It's either one extreme end of the spectrum or the other. What if the 90% of the community reacting negatively is an overreaction?
This is just adult pretend after all, it's not like any of this even matters.
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I wasn't aware truth is absolute just because the majority say it is.
Again, this is just another example of Internet Polarization. It's either one extreme end of the spectrum or the other. What if the 90% of the community reacting negatively is an overreaction?
This is just adult pretend after all, it's not like any of this even matters.
I didn't say it was truth, I said "you're probably doing something wrong." Self-reflection works both ways.
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Help Help Im being repressed!
As someone whose character is....off, and rides the drama llama, i still feel welcome in the community. Granted, my charater does not, but thats due to my choices.
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I agree with a lot that has been said, as a new MMOer and a new RPer I have seen a lot of the push back but what lucky enough to have people point me to the relevent crons or give me advice on what I was doin right and what I was doing wrong. For the Vets, please be these people. and for the new bloods like myself, don't take it personally and try to listen to those whe are helping.
Fuck the haters though.
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I've seen many incarnations of this thread in other games. :bash:
You can't tell people how to play their game. Just like you can't tell a group who to accept. Individuals are gonna be ostracized, there's no way around it. That is the nature of group dynamics.
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I didn't say it was truth, I said "you're probably doing something wrong." Self-reflection works both ways.
Mm, likewise I said a 'little' self-critique. If someone acted out of order and was subsequently ostracised, fair enough. But that doesn't mean the community at large can't spend a little time asking itself "Well, how did this come about? What were the circumstances? Did the group dynamics affect their behaviour?". If the community dogpiles someone continuously for an arbitrary reason (like OOC shit-talking when the player is not even connected to that channel) and THEN the dogpiled goes crazy, then it shouldn't go down that it was purely the individual's fault. Alas, most of the time it does.
Not talking about some deep introspection, just a little awareness.
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I'm fairly confident that the people out there who gave advice to CG were as patient, tactful and constructive as those who set Ayallah on the right path. As a previous poster already said, this community doesn't hold secret meetings to dogpile on one person just because they can.
If someone is already receiving constructive and well-intentioned advice, and still carries on with idiocy (i.e. chavs in the UK who are told that popping out more babies even though they already have 7 and then complain they have no money for their Burberry bling) then the person in question only has him/herself to blame.
As I said in an earlier nuked post, this community shouldn't be forced to accept and tolerate mediocrity because of all this political correctness.
To quote Silas,
"No thanks, go make a private channel and do you thing there, no one will want to interact with that, because it shits in our mutually created RP pool."
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Help Help Im being repressed!
As someone whose character is....off, and rides the drama llama, i still feel welcome in the community. Granted, my charater does not, but thats due to my choices.
I enjoy hating your character.
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If someone is already receiving constructive and well-intentioned advice, and still carries on with idiocy (i.e. chavs in the UK who are told that popping out more babies even though they already have 7 and then complain they have no money for their Burberry bling) then the person in question only has him/herself to blame.
Am I bad because I immediately thought of Dame...?
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Real talk:I know a lot of people hate me. And you all wonder why I'm paranoid, thinking I don't know. No, I'm not kidding. Yes, I'm serious. Sad, ain't it? :(
I know it's my fault, no one else's really. Let this forever stand as a testament and warning to new coming RP'ers; DO NOT BE ME.
Why the hell not? Anslo is awesome. Annoying at times, but awesome.
If someone is already receiving constructive and well-intentioned advice, and still carries on with idiocy (i.e. chavs in the UK who are told that popping out more babies even though they already have 7 and then complain they have no money for their Burberry bling) then the person in question only has him/herself to blame.
Am I bad because I immediately thought of Dame...?
No, but it can be argued Dame is bad because people though of Dame. I did too, incidentally.
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The thing a lot of people don't seem to understand about RP and the RP community is that it is, essentially, a consensus construct. When you enter it you are going to affect change upon it - and that change will affect the long work and great investment that others have put into it.
When I started Pieter I turned up at The Summit and basically said "Hi. I'm new - what's this place about?" - I didn't turn up with three noble titles, a laundry list of distinctions and qualifications and more money than Croesus to start making demands. I worked to create a place that would be mine within the greater shared consensus - trying to create the impression that the changes I made and the energy I brought would ADD to what was already there and not detract from it.
I've never had problems interacting with anyone - from Pirate Queen Lady Vitalia, through Court Poet and Gentleman duellist Shutaq, Nation Diplomat Drake, Drunken madman Romanov, Science Experiment Freakshow Tetua and the Jackbooted Kim.
Not all of my relationships IC are smooth and non-contentious - but I like to think I haven't pissed off anyone seriously OOC. That's not an accident - the trick is to treat their characters with the respect I'd like them to treat mine with.
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The thing a lot of people don't seem to understand about RP and the RP community is that it is, essentially, a consensus construct. When you enter it you are going to affect change upon it - and that change will affect the long work and great investment that others have put into it.
When I started Pieter I turned up at The Summit and basically said "Hi. I'm new - what's this place about?" - I didn't turn up with three noble titles, a laundry list of distinctions and qualifications and more money than Croesus to start making demands. I worked to create a place that would be mine within the greater shared consensus - trying to create the impression that the changes I made and the energy I brought would ADD to what was already there and not detract from it.
I've never had problems interacting with anyone - from Pirate Queen Lady Vitalia, through Court Poet and Gentleman duellist Shutaq, Nation Diplomat Drake, Drunken madman Romanov, Science Experiment Freakshow Tetua and the Jackbooted Kim.
Not all of my relationships IC are smooth and non-contentious - but I like to think I haven't pissed off anyone seriously OOC. That's not an accident - the trick is to treat their characters with the respect I'd like them to treat mine with.
Drunken madman turned musician turned religious zealot, get it right or gtfo >.> <.<
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The thing a lot of people don't seem to understand about RP and the RP community is that it is, essentially, a consensus construct. When you enter it you are going to affect change upon it - and that change will affect the long work and great investment that others have put into it.
This in a nutshell.
At the end of the day most of us are consensus interacting via text chat. We as wizard hat wearing RP nerds all have to work together, suck it up sometimes when we don't like things, but generally work together to make the world we imagine an interesting place to inhabit for most other people.
Some people aren't interested in that, some people are interested in making derp waves for the sake of making derp waves. The herd resists this kind of shit.
At the end of the day it's all about -intention-.
A new person interested in the lore, in the game, in RP, etc, can be excused many many things, retconned into whatever they want, accepted with open arms.
A new person being a shit will always be resisted.
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[mod]Alright, this is likely to be fairly long, so I will eschew mod tags for most of it. Consider this all mod tagged anyway, please.[/mod]
Here is a good overview, because it is one of the major guiding ideas behind the moderation philosophy here (presented in a bit of a different way in the rules and guidelines, but still):
[mod]Everyone should feel free to RP the way they would like to RP. This does not obligate anyone else to change their RP to accommodate yours, nor does it obligate them to react to you the way you want or planned on them reacting, nor does it mean that they are out to get you when they don't do either of the previous, nor does it mean that they are obligated to RP with you at all. The reason that 'You're Doing It Wrong' is and can be banned on this forum without harming the quality of the discussion is because it isn't needed: RPers have and will continue to self-regulate by how and with whom they chose to spend their time. If your RP isn't something other people want to be involved with, they won't involve themselves, and you will be RPing alone. That is not everyone else's fault, and your entertainment is not their responsibility. If people criticize you, you have the choice of ignoring it, ditto if people say unkind things about your RP. In the end, the question is, 'Is what you're doing resulting in you having a good time?' Other people do not have to like your RP, and they do not have any responsibility to you to spend their time participating in it.[/mod]
Given the size of the thread, and how mixed decent advice and flamebait/trolling/off topic bullshit are, I'm locking the whole thing. As usual, please feel free to repost a similar topic or any of the off-shoot topics, but if the mods see people committing the same offenses, warnings and bans are likely to be forthcoming. I'll read through the thread here and try and mention, in a general way, issues as I run across them:
1) Don't insult other players or board members.
2) Don't engage in 'You're doing it wrong', including but not limited to: Calling certain RP stupid (No matter how right you think you are, it doesn't mean you can break the rules), calling people 'special snowflakes', deriding people for not being 'special snowflakes', etc.
3) Don't post off-topic - particularly in regards to unrelated feuds
4) Don't engage in flamebaiting or trolling, most often represented in this thread by assigning negative motives to other players (Attention-seeking, quashing creativity, the community at large is after me, etc).
Please remember that part of what makes for a constructive post is one that encourages people to engage in a useful discussion rather than flames and argument. Words matter, which should be self-evident on a forum, but apparently isn't - the same idea expressed different ways will be received differently and have different results. As is shown in the FAQ (which I recommend everyone review - look for the one talking about hippies).