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[Anslol]

1.  These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.

This.

Confirming this.

You made an account to confirm one post? Seriously?

[Zanzi]

1.  These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.

This.

Confirming this.

You made an account to confirm one post? Seriously?

It was a good post.

[Lyn Farel]

1.  These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.

This.

No.

While it can happen, it is not systematic. The community itself can be the symptom, and people of the community are not always to blame, but more social standards and fucked up human things in general.

So eventually it is normal to see inquiries in both ways.

[Silas Vitalia]

1.  These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.

This.

No.

While it can happen, it is not systematic. The community itself can be the symptom, and people of the community are not always to blame, but more social standards and fucked up human things in general.

So eventually it is normal to see inquiries in both ways.

Nope.

There is a social contract that we all participate in if we want to be treated with fairness and respect.

If you want to hold a job in real life you have to abide by societal behavior rules.

If you want other people to treat you decently, you have to abide by societal behavior rules.

Do you have the freedom to act like a shit and be crazy and yell at people walking by on the sidewalk? You sure do, but by doing so you forfeit your chances at being treated in a civilized manner.

RPers are the same way.  You act in the same region of behavior as most people, then most people are extremely patient and forgiving and willing to meet you half way.

You step outside the social contract and you will be ostracized, ignored, and likely barred access to the peer group.

[Anslol]

Then if it's so similar to RL, what's the point of RPing at all when in a supposedly futuristic and alien culture, everything is basically the same as RL in terms of social items?

[Lyn Farel]

1.  These sorts of threads always focus on what the community did to supposedly 'force' people out, instead of the more obvious and relevant "what did the person do to attract such attention and treatment?" Tons of random people don't collude in secret to shit on an RPer spontaneously; the RPer repeatedly brings the derp all on their own and people tend to react in the same annoyed fashion.

This.

No.

While it can happen, it is not systematic. The community itself can be the symptom, and people of the community are not always to blame, but more social standards and fucked up human things in general.

So eventually it is normal to see inquiries in both ways.

Nope.

There is a social contract that we all participate in if we want to be treated with fairness and respect.

If you want to hold a job in real life you have to abide by societal behavior rules.

If you want other people to treat you decently, you have to abide by societal behavior rules.

Do you have the freedom to act like a shit and be crazy and yell at people walking by on the sidewalk? You sure do, but by doing so you forfeit your chances at being treated in a civilized manner.

RPers are the same way.  You act in the same region of behavior as most people, then most people are extremely patient and forgiving and willing to meet you half way.

You step outside the social contract and you will be ostracized, ignored, and likely barred access to the peer group.

I was not referring to basic rules of conduct. I was referring to social shit like echo chambers and the likes. I did not get a job because I hang out with my coworker after work to have a drink (I rarely do). I did not get a job because I shared everyone's tastes. While I actually do in some cases, it's not always true, and I bet it's even less true for most of you at work.

I got my job because I had skills and was able to conform to basic rules of conduct.

Comparing basic social rulesets with mob rule is a fallacy to my opinion.

And I am not defending CG, I barely know the player and the character. However, I am defending myself here since I got in a similar situation a year ago.

[lallara zhuul]

Then if it's so similar to RL, what's the point of RPing at all when in a supposedly futuristic and alien culture, everything is basically the same as RL in terms of social items?

Thats the charm of EVE, humans are humans even 20k years into the future.

[Silas Vitalia]

Then if it's so similar to RL, what's the point of RPing at all when in a supposedly futuristic and alien culture, everything is basically the same as RL in terms of social items?

The imaginary sandbox we all interact in is huge, with amazing possibilities and a million different choices to make for character backgrounds, personalities, and everything else.
Within the sort of generally agreed framework and backgrounds set up by years of PF.

"I'm the orphan son of a family of prospectors killed in a Gurista raid 20 years ago and I've dedicated my new capsuleer life to wiping them out"

Super! Have fun, here's your cake.


"I'm the illegitimate son of Jamyl and Tibus Heth, who is also psychic, and I'm immune from dying, ever, and I've also made a special clone that no one else can that's 35 feet tall with howitzers for arms, and I own 6 planets (that you don't know about), and I've been to Earth, like 6 times.  Also I'm -crazy- and you can watch me derp out in the summit every night!"

"No thanks, go make a private channel and do you thing there, no one will want to interact with that, because it shits in our mutually created RP pool."

 

[Morwen Lagann]

While it can be a two-way street, Lyn, when the person picking up their toys and going elsewhere refuses to engage their peers to get advice or suggestions on how to improve their situation (or worse, asks for help but rejects or ignores everything out of hand), the onus isn't on the community's end to wonder what they did wrong.

[Makkal]

Then if it's so similar to RL, what's the point of RPing at all when in a supposedly futuristic and alien culture, everything is basically the same as RL in terms of social items?

I don't think Silas is advocating that characters be held to real world social norms. If that were the case, playing a slaver would be a big no-go.

We're talking about the players having to fit in with other players.

[Silas Vitalia]

Lyn it might be a language wording, I don't mean 'social' as in hanging out and having drinks, I mean basics of conduct that is acceptable.

You would not get your job if you acted outside of that.

Sometimes people are so valuable that they can ignore these rules, like the genius who everyone can't stand to speak with, or the professional athlete who is an asshole but is so good that they get away with it.

Most of us aren't so special and have to act within boundaries of behavior.

[Lyn Farel]

That's what I said above, that's the crux of the matter. Some people here are talking about basic social rulesets and other about echo chambers and a general way of doing things that is commonly accepted as politically correct.

While it can be a two-way street, Lyn, when the person picking up their toys and going elsewhere refuses to engage their peers to get advice or suggestions on how to improve their situation (or worse, asks for help but rejects or ignores everything out of hand), the onus isn't on the community's end to wonder what they did wrong.

As I said, I was not referring to CG case. Of course you are right, I never said the contrary.

[Cynthia Gallente]

OW.
I feel pointed sticks.

Someone please clarify: did i ever do anything that broke lore?  when did I say I was a special snowflake? was there ever a claim that i was anyone's anyone?

[Uraniae]

Slight follow up question: Is it hard for new RPers to break into the scene, as it were?

I certainly had no problems breaking into various RP circles when I actually found out about them.  I'm not sure if my experience here is typical or not, but I can quite clearly attribute my "arrival" on the RP scene (in general, in various circles) with forcing myself to be active on the IGS.  Prior to ever knowing about the OOC channel, the Summit, this site, or really knowing any other Roleplayers in the game, I followed the IGS and threw my unsolicited opinions right out into the open while still developing my internal idea and image for Uraniae.

Eventually I had people take notice of the IGS posts and reply, there were some debates and conversations, and in the end someone finally pulled me into an IC channel in game.  From there I spread like a virus to other channels, both IC and OOC.  For the most part I sat back quietly and observed each new channel and group of people, trying to get a feel for how they would react to various things, and more importantly how my character would act in such company.  Now, I'll admit my first big splash in RP was in the midst of a Revan Nefaris run event and there is some obvious IC stigma there, as well as some OOC issues that linger, but I have to say that by and large the RP community welcomed me with open arms (or grasping tendrils.)

As for the rest of the thread's topic...  I have little to judge on for it as I've been rather inactive.  I think my feelings are summed up well enough by others such as Ghost, Silas, Makkal, and others making their points.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Side note.

There are a LOT of analogies being tossed around this thread. Some of them are extreme analogies, like Silas' above. I have to question to relevance of using that magnitude of metaphor here... because while it's amusing and gets your point across, I don't think it's really all that applicable to our community.

In my time in the RP community I've never seen a 35 foot clone with arm howitzers, or invulnerable space psychics who are the direct child of major lore characters.

I have seen animal body-mods, revealing clothing and advertised promiscuity, and attention seeking characters who do silly things.

Sure, it's great to use a metaphor like that above... but how often can we really apply it to what's going on? I think it would be more helpful if we paid attention to what's actually being done in the scene, respectfully of course, using real examples. I realize the use of extreme metaphors may be an attempt to avoid being catacombed for YDIW... but it's starting to be useless.


Main Post.

Many of the posts in this thread have touched on a subject that's worth looking closely at. It isn't the initial things a player or character does to earn the ire of the community, but rather how they percieve  and react to the reactions of others. This is the important part.

To us, we see the player seemingly ignoring our advice and continuing to do things in their own way. I have to question if that's really the case. It is perhaps more likely that they aren't ignoring us, but rather failing to correctly understand and/or apply the advice given to them. When they attempt to change their behavior, they either make a wholly different mistake or they make the same mistake again.

I would like to suggest, the CG issue is a case of the community failing to provide useful advice. Some people may have convo'd CG and spoken at length about what was going on, why it was generating negative feedback, and how best to avoid the cycle. That's entirely possible, but I know for a fact that there are plenty of 'advice givers' in our community who are frankly terrible at giving advice or speaking with upset people. Either they are too harsh (causing a defensive and closed-minded posture from the listener), too nice (validating or reinforcing  bad behavior), use too much meme jargon and jokes (confusing the real advice), or other issues.

If you feel you may be one of those people, consider how often your advice works. If it isn't often, you may be bad at giving it.

I want to warn other members of this community against simply assuming a person is 'too dumb' or thickheaded to heed advice. Few (if any) of us are professional therapists, orators, psychiatrists/psychologists, or otherwise properly educated to address somebody one on one and correctly state exactly what is wrong and how to fix it. We should not automatically assume that our advice, if we give it, was sound and delivered appropriately. We should not assume the other person was simply too thick to take it.

This post is getting rather long, so I'm going to end it here.