Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Julianus Soter on 19 Jan 2012, 05:22
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So, because of public demand, I'll start assembling Templar One's major plot revelations here, along with various political forces underway in most of the governments of New Eden.
The Templars are the Super-soldiers the Amarr Empire seeks to create based on Sleeper technology. The Amarrians were able to penetrate a Sleeper facility, and steal an intact specimin of the Sleeper race, at great cost. However, the brain of the Sleepers was the key. They had developed a fifth lobe which allowed them to transmit state data from their mind into virtuality, and back again, without any additional technology. This would be used as the gateway to having soldiers recloned with their minds transferred as well, allowing for the waging of perpetual war with accelerating, accumulating combat experience.
Jamyl Sarum seeks to use these Templars to conquer the entire known universe, and 'bring an end to war'. However, she has been betrayed.
It appears that the Sleepers are in fact a sub-race of Jovians, called the Architects. Because the Jovians, a technologically unsophisticated branch of humanity during their time, were unable to cross the vast distances of space using their primitive warp drives, quickly, the Architects were to be the ones to assemble stargates upon arrival of the Jove to the Heaven constellation. The Architects were placed in cryogenic stasis, with their minds in virtual reality during the long interstellar warps of their sleeper-ships. While in virtual reality, or the Construct, as it is called, they could communicate, interact.
The Enheduanni were the Jove assigned to watch over the Architects during the trip. And ensure that they were reanimated upon arrival to their destination to construct the colonies and space infrastructure needed for the main Jove population.
After the Fall, the Architects had established vastly better virtual realities that could simulate all of the known universe, within a time-dilated virtual construct. This way, they could do scientific experiments tens or hundreds of times faster than normally possible, with no restrictions on experimental equipment or other resources. The result was that the Architect subculture of the Jove became more technologically advanced than the rest of the Jove Empire, and the Enheduanni acted as the gatekeepers to that knowledge, as they were the only ones capable of bringing the Architects in and out of stasis.
The Enheduanni fashioned themselves as gods, the guardians of technological advancement and progress in Jove Society. Meanwhile, the Architects entered a technological singularity within their virtuality. When the Jovian Disease struck the Empire, hundreds of millions of Jove entered the Architect's construct.
However, when the Diesease Started, the Architects and the Enheduanni left Heaven constellation towards the site of the present Jove Empire. The Jovians believed that the Architects should have been able to find a cure for the disease, but they claimed that they could not. The main population of Jovians chased the Architects during their Migration, but the Architects would no longer share their technological advancements with the Jove; They only used it to support their migration.
It is implied that they then left the cluster to what is now known as w-space. "they took measures to ensure we couldn't follow them at all"
After the architects left Heaven, the Enheduanni went on to attempt to manipulate humanity, to bring them to the same utopia the Architects had been in. Vak'Atioth was the result of Enheduanni intervention, as well as the resurgence of the Minmatar Elders.
Jovians are 'born' as adults, they are brought into the world based on the collective will of the entire population. Genes are selected from a database that is passed down through the generations, custom-built to meet the needs of the present time. Because of this cultural norm, the Architects implemented a protocol: only those with human bodies could enter the Construct, and those with bodies to return to, could leave it.
The Other, the alien virtual intelligence that infected Jamyl Sarum following the succession trials, was the first virtual-born creation of the Architects, and thus, had no body to return to. The Enheduanni were unsure whether or not to let this new life form to continue, but many more were created alongside of the Other. These artificial intelligences warned the Architects that the Construct was not true reality, causing a social schism within the virtuality. The Enheduanni, those who had been entrusted to guide the Architects in and out of the virtual world, and manage their perception of it, didn't destroy the Other, and let him survive.
The Other seeks to overthrow the Enheduanni and their custodianship of the Construct. The other and his other artificial intelligences seized control of most of the Construct's universe, and now every immortal soldier created by the Amarr Empire, the Templars has a mind of an Other supporter, or an Architect that has been stripped away from the Construct, driven insane by the horror of being seperated from everything he has known.
However, because of the primal, primitive and incomplete nature of the Other, his war to overthrow the Enheduanni will come at great cost to mankind, and might even destroy the known universe and end mankind forever.
In terms of real-world politics. . .
Major political themes: The Ishukone Corporation has become a pariah within the Caldari State. Mens Reppola feels pressed on every side by ever constricting machinations of Tibus Heth. Ishukone Corporation citizens are conscripted and sent into battle with the Gallente Federation, and often die, depleting the Corporation's manpower.
In the story, Tibus Heth revokes all Ishukone's enrollment in the Science and Trade school to deplete their intellectual power as well. This is done as a personal assault agains Mens Reppola, whose daughter was enrolled in the school, and an attempt to force him to step down to preserve his relationship with his family.
Eventually, because of events in the Amarr Empire and the deployment of the Templars to the temperate world of Amamake, called Pike's Landing, Mens Reppola sees an opportunity to gain the technological advantage against Tibus Heth and safeguard his corporation. Reppola mobilizes Ishukone's entire military might and conscripts 25% of its population, and moves to Pike's Landing to seize the Templars for reverse engineering. This leads to a colossal engagement between the Amarrian force there and Mordu's Legion, Federation, and Ishukone coalition, which were seeking the same information about the immortal soldier technology.
Subsequent to this, the Legion/Fed/Ishu coalition arrange a bargain to assemble their information about the location of the only surviving immortal soldier, Templar One, recover him from Pike's Landing, and reverse engineering and disseminate the super-soldier technology across the Cluster, to preserve the balance of power against the Amarr Empire and the Empress's/Others schemes of domination. It is likely that the Ishukone will be the only of the State megacorps to make use of this technology.
Other cool PF tidbits. . .
The Minmatar are seeking to find a way to escape New Eden, under the influence of the Elders. This is called the Skymother project.
The location of the main Kameiras conditioning/research program is on the planet Hexandria in the Khanid kingdom, also known as Irmalin II. This planet was raided by the Valklears, lead by General Kintreb. General Kintreb's command is the only one left to defend Core Freedom, the space elevator terminus and colony on Pike's Landing in Amamake, the site of the main battle of the story. General Kintreb is the one who got Mordu's legion involved against the Empire, tying them into the story.
The planet four in the Tsukuras system is called Myoklar, and is a major Echelon Entertainment resort-planet. Haatakan Oritsuu attempted to have Tibus Heth assassinated there, using a squad of Mordu's Legionnaires. However, this was a failure due to CONCORD intervention, where they transmitted details of the attack to Tibus Heth to ensure his cooperation against immortal soldier technology proliferation.
THANATOS is a CONCORD special agent artificial intelligence placed within a bio-engineered clone. These agents would conduct the special business of the Inner Circle when needed, including an act of war conducted on the surface of Pike's Landing against the Gallente Federation, where THANATOS murders an entire platoon of special forces that were seeking intel about the Templars on the planet.
There is much more info, so if you see something I missed, just add it here in this thread.
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Thank you
I kinda like the explanation on the sleepers
Not so sure on the concept of tormented virtual beings attached to the brains of soldiers though.
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Mordu's Legion has lost most of its ties with the Caldari State. After the fall of Caldari Prime, Mordu's disagreement with Heth's actions and policies made him place a large bounty on the State Executor's head. After this occured, Mordu's Legion lost all contracts with the Caldari State. Instead, Mordu's Legion has been contracting out its crew to the Federal Defence Union, while the events of the book also detail a closer tie to the Republic Fleet. No mention of the Intaki Agreement.
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I predict that we will one day see a rogue Thanatos agent running around IGS. (And it won't be me, so get that idea right out of your heads. :) )
I also like the explanation of the Sleepers and the Enheduanni -- even though I think the latter were idiots for not destroying the Other. I'll have to read my copy of the book to figure out how they rationalized it.
The explanation of the Templars and the Amarrian role in developing them makes me twitchy, though. Were they going to create more of them in a conventional (i.e. like the Kamieras) manner? And nobody said: 'these are abominations that must be destroyed'? What, was the strike team 100% percent Kingdom Khanid and they said 'oooh, look at the shiny new implants on these suckas! Must study!'? Another reason I'll have to read the book.
As an aside, I'm in a weird way kind of happy that the DUSTies aren't just the result of advances in existing neural storage/cloning technology (frex: micro burners implanted into the skull that are linked to dead man switches, switches that can be triggered remotely by mission control).1
1 "in a weird way" = "it means I don't feel like I have to get a better tinfoil hat".
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Meh, I will stick with my own theory. It is much better connected with elements actually found in game. ;)
Pondering... Maybe that was why Ishukone operatives aided by Gallente marines busted into A'J Site One.
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So the only faction in the State getting the DUST tech, and subsequently the only group eligible to play for in the console game, are the traitors to the State.
Awesome. /o\
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So the only faction in the State getting the DUST tech, and subsequently the only group eligible to play for in the console game, are the traitors to the State.
Awesome. /o\
They're still mercs (of a sort). That, coupled with tech's ability to leak, spread and get around, I don't think they'll be any huge issues.
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So the only faction in the State getting the DUST tech, and subsequently the only group eligible to play for in the console game, are the traitors to the State.
Awesome. /o\
Thing is, who is and is not traitors to the State can be debated, for quite some time.
As for the plot-twists in this book, it smells of Tony G a long way. I'm STILL not sorry he lost his job.
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Tibus Heth has stated he doesn't give a rat's ass about immortal soldier technology, or capsuleers in general, as most of his populist appeal has to do with the common everyman, and not advanced supersoldier technology.
So, it's not just a matter of him not getting first picks at the technology, its that the provists are ideologically opposed to it.
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What Tibus Heth and the provists think and do is entirely up to CCP.
But it appears odd that Caldari dusties initially all are traitors to the State. Especially as Caldari are normally sold to new players by their value on honor and loyalty.
Still, let us see how it turns out.
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the templar series of immortal soldiers are prototypes.
the Roden/ Ishukone/ Mordu's ones will possibly not involve sleeper doodads.
also, I think the templar series of things is The Other's idea, rather than Jamyl & super teen amarr science force's idea.
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the templar series of immortal soldiers are prototypes.
the Roden/ Ishukone/ Mordu's ones will possibly not involve sleeper doodads.
also, I think the templar series of things is The Other's idea, rather than Jamyl & super teen amarr science force's idea.
Yeah both of those tidbits are buried in my original post I think, apologize for its lengthiness XD
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I mean, its ok. But I cant help but read over it and think "none of this is necessary for compelling scifi".
I wish the factions had the chance to act like humans rather than mere mortals to virtual gods.
(sigh)
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So the only faction in the State getting the DUST tech, and subsequently the only group eligible to play for in the console game, are the traitors to the State.
Awesome. /o\
Thing is, who is and is not traitors to the State can be debated, for quite some time.
I...
No it can't? >>
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Well yes Senn, yes it can :D
But not in here. Given the info provided in Templar One, how we know Tibus and Ishokune to work from before and etc. I'd say the title of traitors is subjective to a few different viewpoints. We can debate this in mail if you want, send me one with the arguments for Ishokune's treason and I'll reply with counter-arguments.
In a more general sense... as far as I'm concerned all changes made by Tony to the EVE PF should be retconed out and considered non-facts. The way his work has twisted about several factions with cliché choices of actions for all of them and injected his own personal, RL opinions on many things in the universe is frankly insulting to me. It belittles the different factions, kills nuances and shades of Grey and hammers down all of them into insulting little fucking boxes where people serve generalized roles. I also despise the idea of the Edunniahateverthefuck as a cheesy plot-device, much like the broker, but the broker was not tony's creation, AFAIK.
I could ramble for hours, but there is no point. The plot devices and actions in Templar One is another poor move on top of those seen in Empyrian age and others. On it's own I'm sure it was an enjoyable book, but as far as the PF contribution goes I am not impressed in the least.
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Well yes Senn, yes it can :D
But not in here. Given the info provided in Templar One, how we know Tibus and Ishokune to work from before and etc. I'd say the title of traitors is subjective to a few different viewpoints. We can debate this in mail if you want, send me one with the arguments for Ishokune's treason and I'll reply with counter-arguments.
No, it really can't.
Any collaboration with the Federation, outside of the necessity of trade of course, is a direct denial of Statist ideology. And since 6 of the Big 8 are Patriots and Practicals, it's a betrayal of the Hethist administration. There's really no debate to be had.
The simple fact is, if we're forced to play as Ishukone-made soldiers, almost guaranteed by Heth's denial of immortal soldiers, CCP is gonna lose a lot of customers who would rather play as patriots.
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There's also the fact that, following whenever Heth barred Ishukone students from the STI, any EVE players who decide to have their STI-graduated characters affiliated with Ishukone are officially doinitwrong.
At least, my understanding is you don't easily swap between Megas, so that's how it'd seem to me.
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So far the presence of the Talocan remains unexplained (unless they're the Enhuehuehuehue).
Over all disappointed with their direction on the Sleepers, they strike me more as a Jovian knock off now and the Enhuehuehue are not helping their place in the story all that well.
Thanks for posting, Soter.
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Well. From the summary I can tell that if I read this book it'll be the cheapest copy I can get hold of. Might even wait for it to get into my local public library (while it's still there).
And I still say we should treat all of the Tony G stuff as fiction created within the game. The fact that it happens to feature some people that are leading personalities of the cluster is purely coincidental. If would be particularly funny if someone tries to use this stuff as IC knowledge.
"Yes, I saw that holo series too. Thought the acting was terrible. Frankly I'm suprised that Heth/Jamyl (insert name of relevant NPC) didn't sue the makers."
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For those of you who don't like TonyG's work, you have valid reasons, but sorry it's PF. Hand waving it away just won't work once it becomes built upon by future installations of PF.
So the only faction in the State getting the DUST tech, and subsequently the only group eligible to play for in the console game, are the traitors to the State.
Hardly. Do you think Ishukone is stupid enough to try to hoard the tech for itself and make it even more of a pariah? It will do exactly what it did with the capsule, market it, hold the rights and make so much ISK selling the right to use it to the other corporations. Tibus Heth won't be able to stop the other mega corps from wanting to use it as every other major force in the cluster will have it.
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For those of you who don't like TonyG's work, you have valid reasons, but sorry it's PF. Hand waving it away just won't work once it becomes built upon by future installations of PF.
So the only faction in the State getting the DUST tech, and subsequently the only group eligible to play for in the console game, are the traitors to the State.
Hardly. Do you think Ishukone is stupid enough to try to hoard the tech for itself and make it even more of a pariah? It will do exactly what it did with the capsule, market it, hold the rights and make so much ISK selling the right to use it to the other corporations. Tibus Heth won't be able to stop the other mega corps from wanting to use it as every other major force in the cluster will have it.
Well, they were stupid enough to make themselves the pariah Mega of the entire State. And in your scenario, things aren't much better. It just means that instead of working directly for the traitors, your soldier was made with some price paid to the traitors. Ishukone still gets the most profit and most benefit. There's no true patriotic option, whatever happens.
CCP could possibly pull something to save us from that downside. Corporate espionage is rife throughout the State, so there's a slim chance one of the Patriots could acquire the tech without helping the traitors.
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For those of you who don't like TonyG's work, you have valid reasons, but sorry it's PF. Hand waving it away just won't work once it becomes built upon by future installations of PF.
So the only faction in the State getting the DUST tech, and subsequently the only group eligible to play for in the console game, are the traitors to the State.
Hardly. Do you think Ishukone is stupid enough to try to hoard the tech for itself and make it even more of a pariah? It will do exactly what it did with the capsule, market it, hold the rights and make so much ISK selling the right to use it to the other corporations. Tibus Heth won't be able to stop the other mega corps from wanting to use it as every other major force in the cluster will have it.
Well, they were stupid enough to make themselves the pariah Mega of the entire State. And in your scenario, things aren't much better. It just means that instead of working directly for the traitors, your soldier was made with some price paid to the traitors. Ishukone still gets the most profit and most benefit. There's no true patriotic option, whatever happens.
CCP could possibly pull something to save us from that downside. Corporate espionage is rife throughout the State, so there's a slim chance one of the Patriots could acquire the tech without helping the traitors.
I don't understand this. Do you hate Ishukone OOCly as well? Why do your Dust character and your EVE character have to come from the same faction?
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For those of you who don't like TonyG's work, you have valid reasons, but sorry it's PF. Hand waving it away just won't work once it becomes built upon by future installations of PF.
So the only faction in the State getting the DUST tech, and subsequently the only group eligible to play for in the console game, are the traitors to the State.
Hardly. Do you think Ishukone is stupid enough to try to hoard the tech for itself and make it even more of a pariah? It will do exactly what it did with the capsule, market it, hold the rights and make so much ISK selling the right to use it to the other corporations. Tibus Heth won't be able to stop the other mega corps from wanting to use it as every other major force in the cluster will have it.
Well, they were stupid enough to make themselves the pariah Mega of the entire State. And in your scenario, things aren't much better. It just means that instead of working directly for the traitors, your soldier was made with some price paid to the traitors. Ishukone still gets the most profit and most benefit. There's no true patriotic option, whatever happens.
CCP could possibly pull something to save us from that downside. Corporate espionage is rife throughout the State, so there's a slim chance one of the Patriots could acquire the tech without helping the traitors.
I don't understand this. Do you hate Ishukone OOCly as well? Why do your Dust character and your EVE character have to come from the same faction?
I don't "hate" Ishukone OOCly. Asking why I don't just make a different faction soldier for DUST, it's in the same vein as asking the Amarrians why they don't just make characters that aren't affected by Tony's depiction of Jamyl.
I would rather play a Patriot, and CCP appears to be denying me the option. It's just irritating. vOv
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I'm really torn about Eve's Backstory now.
On one hand, I love the politics, I love the power play between the Caldari Megacorps, the dissent in the Federation between different political groups who've got different views on how the Fed should retaliate, I love the chaos that ensued when Midular was ousted, and the resurgence of support for Shakor in her place.
I love the fact that Karsoth was a blood-raider bastard with ulterior motives, and that the Empire is so feudal, Eve has such a rich background in terms of political and technological backstory that can be expanded upon.
On the other hand, all this shit about an illuminati, the Enheduanni, the sleepers and whatnot is just utter, total horse shit.
I would honestly LOVE it, if none of that crap had ever been written and Eve was just a dark, dismal, harsh cluster of systems where power and money were savagely thrown around, and politics and trading were horrendously cut-throat.
The backstory of Eve has been horribly bastardised in the last few years with total crap that's been designed to appeal to the masses, rather than the niche market of what Eve was originally.
I've got Templar one sat here right in front of me on the desk, I haven't bothered reading it because I'm too afraid it's going to once again shit all over what was once a phenomenal IP and setting.
I think I'll just read The Burning Life again, and forget the other two books even exist.
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I'm really torn about Eve's Backstory now.
On one hand, I love the politics, I love the power play between the Caldari Megacorps, the dissent in the Federation between different political groups who've got different views on how the Fed should retaliate, I love the chaos that ensued when Midular was ousted, and the resurgence of support for Shakor in her place.
I love the fact that Karsoth was a blood-raider bastard with ulterior motives, and that the Empire is so feudal, Eve has such a rich background in terms of political and technological backstory that can be expanded upon.
On the other hand, all this shit about an illuminati, the Enheduanni, the sleepers and whatnot is just utter, total horse shit.
I would honestly LOVE it, if none of that crap had ever been written and Eve was just a dark, dismal, harsh cluster of systems where power and money were savagely thrown around, and politics and trading were horrendously cut-throat.
The backstory of Eve has been horribly bastardised in the last few years with total crap that's been designed to appeal to the masses, rather than the niche market of what Eve was originally.
I've got Templar one sat here right in front of me on the desk, I haven't bothered reading it because I'm too afraid it's going to once again shit all over what was once a phenomenal IP and setting.
I think I'll just read The Burning Life again, and forget the other two books even exist.
I would tend to disagree, though, in as much as that the vast majority of the universe -only- knows that the cluster is a dark lonely place with vast amounts of money being thrown around and conflicts waged for petty personal reasons about backwater worlds.
Tony G hasn't promoted the Enheduanni in Templar One; that was done in the often-praised Theodicy. What Templar One does is drag them back down to the human level and muddy them up a bit. They're just misguided manipulative leaders that were conflicted about allowing a virtual intelligence to survive, and they're paying for the consequences of that decision now. Their powers aren't godlike; just the result of thousands of years of toil and effort.
The world of Humanity in the present day and age is a early science fiction. There aren't transporters, replicators, vastly powerful interstellar warp drives, dyson spheres, time travel, any of that bullshit. The Enheduanni approach the level of 'Star Trek Next Generation' technology, perhaps. Why do we freak out about them so much and gnash our teeth whenever such a commonly discussed level of science fiction technology is interjected once in a while? And if the Enheduanni are Next Generation, then the Jove are Star Trek: Enterprise level tech, where they haven't even mastered transporters yet. The last time they tried, their ambassador was split into interstellar gunk between twenty regions. Given the Architects aren't sharing their secrets any longer with the Jove, further advancement at this point seems unlikely.
Indeed, the story of the Jove is the pinnacle of eve-onliney dark grimeyness. The one civilization that had a chance at utopia fucked it up. Fucked it up baddddd. And they've now pretty much caused their own extinction, as well as endangering the rest of their brethren in humanity by allowing for a destructive artificial intelligence to gain power and survive. Perhaps it's the juxtaposition between the high-tech world of the jove and the low-tech world of, say, Mens Reppola and Ishukone, but balancing those two worlds is a remarkable feat and an enjoyable contrast in storytelling. TL:DR: I didn't find anything particularly objectionable in the book.
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How do you all dare to spit on so much epicness ?
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How do you all dare to spit on so much epicness ?
What is this in reference to, lyn? XD
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I think it looks potentially better than TEA, but I'm still scared to read it. So I just read the spoilers here.
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For those of you who don't like TonyG's work, you have valid reasons, but sorry it's PF. Hand waving it away just won't work once it becomes built upon by future installations of PF.
So the only faction in the State getting the DUST tech, and subsequently the only group eligible to play for in the console game, are the traitors to the State.
Hardly. Do you think Ishukone is stupid enough to try to hoard the tech for itself and make it even more of a pariah? It will do exactly what it did with the capsule, market it, hold the rights and make so much ISK selling the right to use it to the other corporations. Tibus Heth won't be able to stop the other mega corps from wanting to use it as every other major force in the cluster will have it.
Well, they were stupid enough to make themselves the pariah Mega of the entire State. And in your scenario, things aren't much better. It just means that instead of working directly for the traitors, your soldier was made with some price paid to the traitors. Ishukone still gets the most profit and most benefit. There's no true patriotic option, whatever happens.
CCP could possibly pull something to save us from that downside. Corporate espionage is rife throughout the State, so there's a slim chance one of the Patriots could acquire the tech without helping the traitors.
I don't understand this. Do you hate Ishukone OOCly as well? Why do your Dust character and your EVE character have to come from the same faction?
I don't "hate" Ishukone OOCly. Asking why I don't just make a different faction soldier for DUST, it's in the same vein as asking the Amarrians why they don't just make characters that aren't affected by Tony's depiction of Jamyl.
I would rather play a Patriot, and CCP appears to be denying me the option. It's just irritating. vOv
I suppose that's fair enough.
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The point is, at least by the time of pikes landing, robust heth is ideologically opposed to super soldiers, and is now heavily in debt to Concord for saving his hide from the myoklar attack. If he betrays his promise to Concord now, and proceeds with adoption in the rest of the state military, then concord might send him a little message.
Another thing to mention is the radicalization of the Inner Circle. The are now hell bent on enforcing the mandate, without knowing anything about the larger context of the Architects or Other.
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On the other hand, all this shit about an illuminati, the Enheduanni, the sleepers and whatnot is just utter, total horse shit."
Well said, Verone.
We've already got a rich and fantastic world to invest in without.... whatever it is all that nonsense was. You don't have to turn the 'epic' and ancient dial up to 11 "x treme" when it's already set at 10.
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How do you all dare to spit on so much epicness ?
What is this in reference to, lyn? XD
Dunno, I was probably doing some kind of weird parallel with Bioware current storyline policies involving the term "epic" 3 times in 3 words sentences.
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What I don't get is Shakor bollocking Roden for sending a FedNav carrier group to Amamake II, and "invading" it, going "waa it's a MINMATAR world you invaded"
Er, no, it was under occupation of the Amarr Empire, actually. And it's not an invasion when it ultimately flipped back to Minmatar control =/
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I'm really torn about Eve's Backstory now.
On one hand, I love the politics, I love the power play between the Caldari Megacorps, the dissent in the Federation between different political groups who've got different views on how the Fed should retaliate, I love the chaos that ensued when Midular was ousted, and the resurgence of support for Shakor in her place.
I love the fact that Karsoth was a blood-raider bastard with ulterior motives, and that the Empire is so feudal, Eve has such a rich background in terms of political and technological backstory that can be expanded upon.
On the other hand, all this shit about an illuminati, the Enheduanni, the sleepers and whatnot is just utter, total horse shit.
I would honestly LOVE it, if none of that crap had ever been written and Eve was just a dark, dismal, harsh cluster of systems where power and money were savagely thrown around, and politics and trading were horrendously cut-throat.
The backstory of Eve has been horribly bastardised in the last few years with total crap that's been designed to appeal to the masses, rather than the niche market of what Eve was originally.
I've got Templar one sat here right in front of me on the desk, I haven't bothered reading it because I'm too afraid it's going to once again shit all over what was once a phenomenal IP and setting.
I think I'll just read The Burning Life again, and forget the other two books even exist.
+1
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What I don't get is Shakor bollocking Roden for sending a FedNav carrier group to Amamake II, and "invading" it, going "waa it's a MINMATAR world you invaded"
Er, no, it was under occupation of the Amarr Empire, actually. And it's not an invasion when it ultimately flipped back to Minmatar control =/
Minmatar have a stick up their ass? :P who'da guessed. . .
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Another thing to mention is the radicalization of the Inner Circle. The are now hell bent on enforcing the mandate, without knowing anything about the larger context of the Architects or Other.
It fits with their handling of Sansha...
...and suggests another reason behind Sansha incursions, honestly. :yar: /tinfoil
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I approve of the Ishukone actions in Templar One.. that is all.
<3
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I approve of the Ishukone actions in Templar One.. that is all.
<3
Ishukone Corporation citizens are conscripted and sent into battle with the Gallente Federation, and often die, depleting the Corporation's manpower. ... Reppola mobilizes Ishukone's entire military might and conscripts 25% of its population
Reppola is sacrificing Ishukone in defense of the Federation to what end? Heth is dying and he is not/cannot become an infomorph. The baseline-centric campaign against Ishukone is remarkably straight forward - Reppola, who is near-immortal, is sacrificing millions of Caldari in order to secure his/Ishukone's place as a Roden/Federation lapdog.
Based on what I have read here, the whole of the STPRO should have essentially been disbanded in 112. Capsuleers are unwanted by the State's "supreme dictator" and are dependent on the State's most notorious enemy - Ishukone. And those of us who play anti-Fed characters are not about to go over to their side by joining Mordu's.
I would have appreciated behind closed doors dealings and even assassinations of various executives and such.
The storyline presented should destroy the State and yet it plods on because the relationship between this fiction and the in-game world are non-existent.
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Like I said before, I think the scope of the Eve universe exceeds the actual ability of the writers. CCP is a video game company; they have no need to employ those academically versed in history, politics, IR, sociology, anthropology etc.
I think as RPers we are more prone to nitpicking. CCP probably considers the fiction "good enough" for the 95% of players who don't care about specific matters. Maybe.
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=690049#post690049
In before "where's your evidence"
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=690049#post690049
In before "where's your evidence"
Ah yes, "Mordu's Legion". We have dismissed those claims.
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In other news, I know The Rabbit personally and he has told me the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.
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In other news, I know The Rabbit personally and he has told me the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.
... My fanfiction was right! D:
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Well yes Senn, yes it can :D
But not in here. Given the info provided in Templar One, how we know Tibus and Ishokune to work from before and etc. I'd say the title of traitors is subjective to a few different viewpoints. We can debate this in mail if you want, send me one with the arguments for Ishokune's treason and I'll reply with counter-arguments.
No, it really can't.
Any collaboration with the Federation, outside of the necessity of trade of course, is a direct denial of Statist ideology. And since 6 of the Big 8 are Patriots and Practicals, it's a betrayal of the Hethist administration. There's really no debate to be had.
Guess you did not get my point, so I will point this out more plainly. I know there is allot of it, but the above bold lines are, frankly, bullshit.
What *IS* the State's ideology, Senn?
The 'cleansing' of the State from all 'non-Caldari' influence?
Eternal war with the Federation?
The extermination of all things 'Gallente'?
The subjugation of the Republic?
All of these and more are possible aims if one take the Heth administration at face value - and who are they, anyhow? From some view-points, they are one man, his inner-demons and his yes-men. From others, the legitimate government who's word is law.
When the State was formed it was done as an alternative to remaining in the Federation. A State by Caldari FOR Caldari. Those who emigrate to it are either subsumed into the ranks and become Caldari in spirit or they go elsewhere. Each of the different 8 megas have slightly different flavor, different ideas and viewpoints, though they are all essentially Caldari in spirit. Ishukone's desire to trade with outside factions, for instance, is merely one of their ideas for self-improvement. That's quite fair, ne?
No it's not. Not according the man who in quite un-Caldari ways assumed power by trusting an outside provider with getting him into the right positions at the right time and staging one of the biggest terrorist assaults in EVE's history, and igniting a war between two super-powers, causing the deaths of millions of people. How many people in the State has died by federal hands so far because of Heth's inner demons and racism? He has assumed un-Caldari like control over all of the State, minimized the other CEO's power, and direct the whole nation like his personal hate-wagon. Far as Ishokune is concerned, Heth's actions likely paint him as the greatest traitor to the Caldari 'ideology' there ever were.
"Who is the traitors to the State" is likely up for a considerably large amount of debate and the answer likely change depending on who's viewpoint one looks at. Simply assuming Heth is right and Ishukone is a corp of traitors because they don't want to be slowly eaten up in a never-ending war with the Federation is merely buying into one of many view-points. It is only natural that they will try to do whatever they can or must do to avoid perishing.
TL;DR - The automatic assumption that Ishukone are traitors to the State are unfounded insofar that they ignore a great deal of different opinions based on revealed facts; who is and who is not traitors to whatever is likely as varying in belief as to what it means to be a 'true' Caldari. Ergo, arguing OOC that Ishukone are traitors is foolish because as players we have to take all factors into consideration.
What your TOON believes is entirely up to you, though.
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Well yes Senn, yes it can :D
But not in here. Given the info provided in Templar One, how we know Tibus and Ishokune to work from before and etc. I'd say the title of traitors is subjective to a few different viewpoints. We can debate this in mail if you want, send me one with the arguments for Ishokune's treason and I'll reply with counter-arguments.
No, it really can't.
Any collaboration with the Federation, outside of the necessity of trade of course, is a direct denial of Statist ideology. And since 6 of the Big 8 are Patriots and Practicals, it's a betrayal of the Hethist administration. There's really no debate to be had.
Guess you did not get my point, so I will point this out more plainly. I know there is allot of it, but the above bold lines are, frankly, bullshit.
What *IS* the State's ideology, Senn?
The 'cleansing' of the State from all 'non-Caldari' influence?
Eternal war with the Federation?
The extermination of all things 'Gallente'?
The subjugation of the Republic?
All of these and more are possible aims if one take the Heth administration at face value - and who are they, anyhow? From some view-points, they are one man, his inner-demons and his yes-men. From others, the legitimate government who's word is law.
When the State was formed it was done as an alternative to remaining in the Federation. A State by Caldari FOR Caldari. Those who emigrate to it are either subsumed into the ranks and become Caldari in spirit or they go elsewhere. Each of the different 8 megas have slightly different flavor, different ideas and viewpoints, though they are all essentially Caldari in spirit. Ishukone's desire to trade with outside factions, for instance, is merely one of their ideas for self-improvement. That's quite fair, ne?
No it's not. Not according the man who in quite un-Caldari ways assumed power by trusting an outside provider with getting him into the right positions at the right time and staging one of the biggest terrorist assaults in EVE's history, and igniting a war between two super-powers, causing the deaths of millions of people. How many people in the State has died by federal hands so far because of Heth's inner demons and racism? He has assumed un-Caldari like control over all of the State, minimized the other CEO's power, and direct the whole nation like his personal hate-wagon. Far as Ishokune is concerned, Heth's actions likely paint him as the greatest traitor to the Caldari 'ideology' there ever were.
"Who is the traitors to the State" is likely up for a considerably large amount of debate and the answer likely change depending on who's viewpoint one looks at. Simply assuming Heth is right and Ishukone is a corp of traitors because they don't want to be slowly eaten up in a never-ending war with the Federation is merely buying into one of many view-points. It is only natural that they will try to do whatever they can or must do to avoid perishing.
TL;DR - The automatic assumption that Ishukone are traitors to the State are unfounded insofar that they ignore a great deal of different opinions based on revealed facts; who is and who is not traitors to whatever is likely as varying in belief as to what it means to be a 'true' Caldari. Ergo, arguing OOC that Ishukone are traitors is foolish because as players we have to take all factors into consideration.
What your TOON believes is entirely up to you, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism
"Statism (French; étatisme) is a term used by political scientists to describe the belief that, for whatever reason, a government should control either economic or social policy or both to some degree."
"Some statist analyses use a dichotomy between state and society, viewing the state as a homogeneous institution capable of using political power to force policy on a passive or resisting society. "
"The ideology of statism espoused by fascism holds that sovereignty is not vested in the people but in the nation state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, prestige and well-being of the state."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
" Fascists seek rejuvenation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood through a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical education, and eugenics."
"The fascist state is led by a supreme leader"
"Fascism promotes political violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.[3][12] It views violence as a fact of life that is a necessary means to achieve human progress. It exalts militarism as providing positive transformation in society and providing spiritual renovation, education, instilling of a will to dominate in people's character and creating national comradeship through military service."
"Fascism seeks to purify the nation of foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or that do not fit into the national culture."
"Fascists supported the unifying of proletarian workers to their cause along corporatistic, socialistic, or syndicalistic lines, promoting the creation of a strong proletarian nation, but not a proletarian class."
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari
"Founded on the tenets of patriotism and hard work that carried its ancestors through hardships on an inhospitable homeworld, the Caldari State is today a corporate dictatorship, led by rulers who are determined to see it return to the meritocratic ideals of old. Ruthless and efficient in the boardroom as well as on the battlefield, the Caldari are living emblems of strength, persistence, and dignity."
I'm sure you think I make this stuff up, as Senn hasn't made his hatred of the Liberal bloc a secret in the past. But if you'd taken any time at all to research the ethos of the Caldari State, the rigidly militaristic society, the strict dedication to work counterpointed by the natural aggression (read a chron or bloodline definition sometime, gambling is big in the State especially among the Civire, and Mindclash is still highly popular), the xenophobia (expulsion from the military for homosexuality, post-war ancestral hatred for the Federation), the ferocious patriotism, or hell, even looked at Hethist policies, you might have an informed position.
At the moment, you're just defending a position for the sake of being contrary.
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I am in agreement with Senn. Heth cannot be in the position he is without some major support among the Caldari no matter how hard we wish it was not true. Both among the mega corp CEOs and the common population.
To be against his administration and co-operating with Gallente is treason against the State. I do not think the Caldari are more refined than that. Heck, co-operating with the Gallente is enough to qualify.
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While not claiming to be an expert on matters Caldari, isn't one of the ongoing tensions there about whether each new political development is consistent with the concepts of Raata? I had the impression that some considered that statism for the sake of statism or personal glorification--as opposed to proper meritocracy and willingness to make hard choices and sacrifices for the greater good--was un-Caldari.
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I'd just point out that by most [Western] standards, the State is "Not a Nice Place to Live", and is generally authoritarian, near-dystopic. Not that the people FEEL it's a dystopia, but you can bet most of us here would end up as Disassociated in Caldari society. The price of being Teh Awsum and Perfect In Every Way (from many players' mindsets; it also comes across as the perfect Republican/Tea Party haven) is that there is no concept of 'the social body' (in the sense of social security or welfare) or a civil society. It's a dictatorship, so a dictator acting like a dictator shouldn't surprise anyone. This may offend our Westen Liberal Sensibilities, but that's orientalism for you.
Heck, I don't see anyone commenting on the children of the Disassociated, the childen of their children, and so forth. Epic shantytowns outside Caldari major cities composed of 25% of people who actually failed to do their job (or perhaps they were born with a physical disability that prevented them from doing so, or maybe they had severe domestic problems such as child abuse that scarred them etc. < nobody ever considers that), and 75% of people who were unfortunately born there out of circumstance.
So Heth arresting anyone on a whim is just Another Day there. Ditch your RL mindset and immerse yourself as a Caldari IC, full indoctrinated and all, and you won't see a problem.
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I'd just point out that by most [Western] standards, the State is "Not a Nice Place to Live", and is generally authoritarian, near-dystopic. Not that the people FEEL it's a dystopia, but you can bet most of us here would end up as Disassociated in Caldari society. The price of being Teh Awsum and Perfect In Every Way (from many players' mindsets; it also comes across as the perfect Republican/Tea Party haven) is that there is no concept of 'the social body' (in the sense of social security or welfare) or a civil society. It's a dictatorship, so a dictator acting like a dictator shouldn't surprise anyone. This may offend our Westen Liberal Sensibilities, but that's orientalism for you.
Heck, I don't see anyone commenting on the children of the Disassociated, the childen of their children, and so forth. Epic shantytowns outside Caldari major cities composed of 25% of people who actually failed to do their job (or perhaps they were born with a physical disability that prevented them from doing so, or maybe they had severe domestic problems such as child abuse that scarred them etc. < nobody ever considers that), and 75% of people who were unfortunately born there out of circumstance.
So Heth arresting anyone on a whim is just Another Day there. Ditch your RL mindset and immerse yourself as a Caldari IC, full indoctrinated and all, and you won't see a problem.
This, pretty much. It's not supposed to be a pretty place.
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The State offers its citizens the best and the worst in living conditions. As long as you keep in line, do your job, uphold the laws and so forth, life can be fairly pleasant and productive. But for those who are not cut out for this strict, disciplined regime life quickly becomes intolerable. They lose their respect, family, status, everything, and the only options left to them are suicide or exile. Although not xenophobic as such, the Caldari are very protective of their way of life and tolerate only those foreigners that stick to the rules.
And also from the civire ancestry about 'dissenters'
The cold discipline of Caldari society does not appeal to everyone, nor is everyone happy with the stranglehold that corporate rulers have on everyday life. While not outright rebellious, dissenters nonetheless invest considerable time and effort in trying to change the system from within. The State keeps a close eye on these individuals.
Ditch your RL mindset and immerse yourself as a Caldari IC, full indoctrinated and all, and you won't see a problem.
And that's just you going 'play like I've always portrayed my IC enemies'. Sure, everyone's brainwashed and that's why things are like they are. Not loving Heth as a development for the faction, but grounded in PF are a couple of facts, most of them already quoted above.
The caldari way of life is benefitting the caldari people - those that are willing/able to adhere to the rules. Even more so after Heth's 'New Meritocracy'. That does not mean that everyone's living on a happy pony farm, but for the majority this works extraordinarily well. And those that fell out of the system are probably not 'citizens' anymore. That's the harsh reality of hypercapitalism and apparently a price most caldari ( except dissenters ) are willing to pay.
Next is the successful attack on Luminaire, that certainly raised the approval rates, even today.
I would argue that Heth is still in power because he must have a lot of support. He's not that good a politician to play people (ooc knowledge, basically).
So he's still wielding almost dictatorial powers, is a huge racist and pretty paranoid about traitors. That's not the nicest enviroment, and I'm pretty sure Ishukone is feeling that mistrust and the open grudge pretty well. As far as claiming Ishukone to be traitors to the state I'd be careful, since merely having friendly (trade) relations with the federation is their strategy to strengthen the State. It's a different one than the patriots would use, but the end goal is the same.
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How is it playing like I've always portrayed my IC enemies if you subsequently agree?
This is the problem with discussing PF with people from this forum and in-game. Everyone is so on-guard that if someone who RPs one faction makes an arbitrary assessment of another faction (particularly hostile) then it's all seen in a negative light because people will interpret that as that player trying to "shoot down" that faction as "bad" because it is follows 'evil' concepts like indoctrination, fascism, etc.
If I was a Caldari RPer and said the same things there wouldn't be an issue. EVE RPers seriously need to drop this Orientalist mindset that any word that isn't in the Western Liberal Standard is suddenly derogatory.
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This, pretty much. It's not supposed to be a pretty place.
Being a pretty place or not was never up for argument; Seriphyn's post reflects the CURRENT status quo in the State, and it's still not what this is about. To answer my claim that Tibus Heth and his viewpoint(s) are not the epitome of 'State ideology' you served us some select quotes from a few wiki articles that didn't answer anything. Allow me to add some pieces you missed that reflect the State's mindset;
Statism (French; étatisme) is a term used by political scientists to describe the belief that, for whatever reason, a government should control either economic or social policy or both to some degree. Statism is effectively the opposite of anarchism. Statism can take many forms. Minarchists prefer a minimal or night watchman states to protect people from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud with military, police, and courts. Some may also include fire departments, prisons, and other functions. Totalitarians prefer a maximum or all encompassing state. Limited government, welfare state, and other options make up the middle territory of the scale of statism. Some anarchists use the term statist in a derogatory sense.
State, society and individuals
Some statist analyses use a dichotomy between state and society, viewing the state as a homogeneous institution capable of using political power to force policy on a passive or resisting society. Such an analysis depends on an elitist theory of power rather than a pluralist theory of power; that power is exercised by individuals and competing organisations within society.
Right-wing authoritarianism, on the other hand, views a strong, authoritative state as required to legislate or enforce traditional morality and cultural practices. The ideology of statism espoused by fascism holds that sovereignty is not vested in the people but in the nation state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, prestige and well-being of the state. It repudiates individualism and exalts the nation as an organic body headed by the Supreme Leader and nurtured by unity, force, and discipline. Fascism and some forms of corporatism extol the moral position that the corporate group, usually the state, is greater than the sum of its parts and that individuals have a moral obligation to serve the state.
Here is a bit from the original description for the Caldari State;
A state built on corporate capitalism, the Caldari State is run by a few mega-corporations which divide the state between them, controlling and ruling every aspect of society. Each corporation is made up of thousands of smaller companies, ranging from industrial companies to law firms. All land and real estate is owned by a company which leases it to the citizens, and government and policing are also handled by independent companies.
Although this gives the corporations dictatorial powers, they are just as bound by Caldari customs and laws as the individual, and the fierce, continual competition between the corporations ensures a healthy, consumer-based social environment, which benefits everyone.
...
The State offers its citizens the best and the worst in living conditions. As long as you keep in line, do your job, uphold the laws and so forth, life can be fairly pleasant and productive. But for those who are not cut out for this strict, disciplined regime life quickly becomes intolerable. They lose their respect, family, status, everything, and the only options left to them are suicide or exile. Although not xenophobic as such, the Caldari are very protective of their way of life and tolerate only those foreigners that stick to the rules.
Megacorporations
The Caldari State stands for corporate capitalism in its purest form. There are eight great Corporations that together own more than 90% of all property within the State. Each of the corporation is made up of thousands of companies of various sizes and various sorts, ranging from simple mining companies to powerful police companies. There is no single, unified government as such, each corporation rules its territories like their own kingdom with little or nor interference from the other corporations. Competition, efficiency and market share is more important to the corporations than accumulation of wealth (although the latter is often a happy by-product of the former). Business for the good of the individual rather than the good of the many is something totally alien to the Caldari. In higher matters, such as in foreign policy towards the other empires, the Board of Directors, which consists of the CEOs of the eight major corporations, has the highest authority. The Board of Directors also makes sure that the social infrastructure of the State remains intact and settles all major quarrels between the corporations.
This is the epitome of the State's ideology; a covenant of grand corporations with shared historical, ethnic, cultural and religious beliefs all striving together for a common goal. There is often fierce competition, ensuring a healthy economy and growth that would benefit everyone able to help achieve it; but the State is very much a unified beast when it is in their interest to be so. NO ONE PERSON would be in charge to dictate direction for all of them, and while the ideology of the state held several fascist ideals the typical 'great leader' ideology was not followed, instead they trusted the BoD to handle all manners of high-end inner-state politics and high-grade, state-wide foreign affairs.
But then what happened? well... The final piece of a definitive fascist government was added and things started to go down-hill from there. It's not so 'recent' now but let's have a look at a piece from 'recent events' concerning the State;
Leadership
Where the rest of the State is uncharacteristically united and calm, the upper levels of the megacorps are still divided and disoriented. Heth's combination of popular support and seemingly limitless financial backing has made him almost unassailable, but his victories have come at the expense of many of the most powerful individuals and cartels in the State. His reforms have fragmented the field of play, sending everyone else scrambling to secure political territory. While there are a few executives who wholeheartedly support Heth and his ideals, the majority see him as a threat and a menace to be controlled or removed as soon as the opportunity presents itself. While ideological positions still place many of the big players at odds with one another, shady alliances that would have been inconceivable a year ago are coming into being.
Players at this level, while they may be ideologically motivated, do not survive without the ability to be extremely pragmatic and realistic when required; they know they can't make a move right now, but they know they need to be absolutely ready when an opportunity presents itself. If military conflict provides that opportunity, they're all for it, but right now all it seems to be achieving is to strengthen Tibus Heth's position.
Why is this man not whole-heartedly supported and backed by the entire State? May have something to do with his very Un-Caldari way of acting and I've no doubt the severe cut in power the BoD has suffered plays into it as well. The very idea that a single man should be acting glorious leader of the whole of the State is an idea alien to the Caldari mindset, at least if one take all the pre-Empyrian age info into account. Heth is very good at playing the masses however, utilizing old misgivings or creating new ones (Hello Noir Broker, let's have ourselves an excuse, prize-tagged 600k lives, for now.) to keep people rooting for him. Works so long as they are angry and blood-thirsty, led by his personal cohorts. This group that Heth uses to control the state, who are they again? Well;
The Caldari Providence Directorate is a gendarmerie founded by Tibus Heth shortly after the launch of his successful coup against the Caldari Constructions Corporation.
It was initially manned by Constructions workers loyal to Heth. Templis Dragonaurs were secretly appointed as the agency's officers and were responsible for providing State-wide internal security and running Heth's anti-Gallente/Caldari supremacy propaganda campaign.
Noted for their physical perfection and trademark dark blue uniforms, these men and women were nicknamed Provists by the Caldari population.
The Templis Dragonaurs are an ultra-nationalist Caldari terrorist organization whose origins date back to the Tikiona States. They are easily the most anti-Gallente political entity in New Eden.
The organization was secretly involved in the destruction of Nouvelle Rouvenor. Tibus Heth was supposedly a member for six years, although his involvement was never officially proven.
So, let's get this right; The entire purpose of the Caldari State is now to act as a vessel for one man and his terrorist friends to maintain a racism-fueled hate-war with a foreign power for their own interests, all the while claiming that this is good for the State in the long run? This basically means that the State was made to destroy the Federation; they have *NO* other purpose. And Ishukone, desiring something so Treasonous as 'trade and peace' with the Federation is thus enemies who must be punished. Funny how that works;
[Ishukone article, on politics]Politics
The megacorporation is the leader of the liberal bloc in Caldari politics, a position it has held since Otro Gariushi seized control of the company during a period of complacency and decline in YC 100. Under his leadership, the company advocated free market policies, relaxed trade barriers, and an easing of tensions between the State and the Gallente Federation. Gariushi also gave the company its reputation for being relatively employee friendly and for its ruthless competitive practices with rival companies. Despite the death of Gariushi in the Malkalen disaster, his policies still cast a long shadow over the corporation and the current leadership appears to be following in his footsteps.
As a result, Ishukone remains a reluctant partner in the Caldari Providence Directorate. With little choice but to go along with the Directorate after Gariushi's death, the corporate leadership remains of two minds about the situation. On the one hand, many board members support the meritocratic reforms instituted by the Directorate, which were similar to policies already in place under Gariushi. However, considerable resistance to the centralization of power and the Directorate's belligerence remains among the corporate leadership.
This coming from the worst offender to the State's founding principles and way of life that EVE PF has ever created. Hell, his reforms were not even that original as it appears many had been in place under Ishukone corporation for some time. By your arguments, the entire ideological and historical worth of the entire State boils down to "Herp, kill all Gallente, Derp." and that the State has no more nuance, debt, or value than that? Again; bullshit. The State has a greater value as an in-game faction with considerably more value and debt than to be card-board villains for the Federation to fight in an eternal, non-winnable (According to game-mechanics) war.
Lastly...
I grow tired of arguing this so this will be the LAST time;
Who is, and who is not, traitors to the State depends widely on different points of view. These can be argued for some time if we want. It is established from PF that Heth is a very 'un-Caldari' influence on the State and that much of the flak that Ishukone get's is due their personal ideals as a liberal corp and the legacy put down by Gariushi, something Heth seems to hate because it refuses to paint the Federation as the unalterable hated arch-enemy. As such, from the provist's viewpoint they may be traitors, but by the view point of Ishukone Heth has subverted and betrayed the State for some time; if armed conflict takes place between the two it's not clear-cut from PF who is and who is not the traitors - only who is the 'rebel' against the 'wayward' nation.
Also, as far as I'm personally concerned if Ishukone is the only 'State' faction available in Dust 514 I do wonder why they are portrayed so Federation friendly; why would they fight the Federation if things are this smooth? I'm personally confused, but then that's the reason I try to not get to involved in this absurd cluster-fuck that this new book adds to the already existing chaotic mess.
Bittervet/ I would like to get back the EVE online where factions were believable, nuanced and down-to-earth legitimate human societies not catalysts for 'epic' storylines and clear-cut boxed caricatures of themselves in clear-cut black.vs.white conflicts sparked by god-like entities. /Bittervet.
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edit:
I simply disagree, Seriphyn. If you're really moaning about why people feel attacked when faced with these sensible statements you roll out everytime then I can't help it. I'm not going to engage in circular arguments and the derailing of the thread. I quoted the PF I felt was appropriate to the discussion.
@Bloodbird
I tend to agree with most of your points. However, I want to add that Patriots != Hethists/Provists, as well. They're probably more disagreeing with the, quoted, un-caldarian influence of Heth than the others, even if many of his deeds align with patriotic ideals.
edit:
And I agree with your bittervet-bottom line. I'm getting sick and tired of the focus on Heth and the extremely stupid and flat RP surrounding it. There seem to be no positions besides "Anti-State Caldari" ( which includes Ishukone and now Hyasoda, which is simply idiotic ) or brainwashed fascist. Whenever you're argueing a point you're getting wedged somewhere in there.
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Who is, and who is not, traitors to the State depends widely on different points of view. These can be argued for some time if we want. It is established from PF that Heth is a very 'un-Caldari' influence on the State and that much of the flak that Ishukone get's is due their personal ideals as a liberal corp and the legacy put down by Gariushi, something Heth seems to hate because it refuses to paint the Federation as the unalterable hated arch-enemy. As such, from the provist's viewpoint they may be traitors, but by the view point of Ishukone Heth has subverted and betrayed the State for some time; if armed conflict takes place between the two it's not clear-cut from PF who is and who is not the traitors - only who is the 'rebel' against the 'wayward' nation.
Well said.
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This, pretty much. It's not supposed to be a pretty place.
Being a pretty place or not was never up for argument; Seriphyn's post reflects the CURRENT status quo in the State, and it's still not what this is about. To answer my claim that Tibus Heth and his viewpoint(s) are not the epitome of 'State ideology' you served us some select quotes from a few wiki articles that didn't answer anything.
That you didn't understand their relevance doesn't mean they "didn't answer anything." They were pertinent, concise passages that supported my earlier argument, showing the tendency of extreme corporate dictatorships with Statist mentalities to resemble patriotic fascist states. I even followed it up with a CCP-made quote that supports my supported argument.
What's so hard to understand? I didn't say it was morally defensible, I didn't say I (the person, not the character) agreed, I didn't say your character had to believe something different.
I said Ishukone is a traitor Mega. And it is. It violates the tenants of patriotic duty that Statism thrives on, especially under leaders like Heth. Whether or not we like it, Tony G's book is PF, and that PF says Ishukone fought alongside the Federation to take immortal soldier tech for themselves.
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Yes. Sadly that is PF... :ugh:
And unless we argue that the Caldari people in majority does not represent the State then I fear they (the commoners) will see the actions is Ishukone as traitoruos. Philosophic details disregarded.
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Ha, I just realized that the good Tony is infringing on god-modding player characters by stating that Ishukone has been expelled from the Science and Trade Institute. It is one thing write about what some NPC did in a NPC corporation to trying to dictate what is happening in a corporation with a large amount of player characters. Especially as there is no game mechanic that expels you from STI if you show great support to Ishukone or claim to be an Ishukone citizen.
Or maybe Tony G is the only one allowed to say "you're doing it wrong". :|
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Short version: It's stupid to change the story of a game through a novel without changing the game, too.
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I am in agreement with Senn. Heth cannot be in the position he is without some major support among the Caldari no matter how hard we wish it was not true. Both among the mega corp CEOs and the common population.
To be against his administration and co-operating with Gallente is treason against the State. I do not think the Caldari are more refined than that. Heck, co-operating with the Gallente is enough to qualify.
Putting a person in a position requires the support of everyone supervising, cooperating or serving. Taking a person out of a position merely requires a man with a gun. This is why I suspect Heth won't be around much longer.
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I just love that mindset. :D
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Putting a person in a position requires the support of everyone supervising, cooperating or serving. Taking a person out of a position merely requires a man with a gun. This is why I suspect Heth won't be around much longer.
I think you forgot the part where Heth replaced everyone within gunshot distance with "totally loyal" individuals.
:s
There's also this little bit in Templar One where CONCORD saved his ass in return for a "favor".
He's got Script Immunity trained to level 5. :psyccp:
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Putting a person in a position requires the support of everyone supervising, cooperating or serving. Taking a person out of a position merely requires a man with a gun. This is why I suspect Heth won't be around much longer.
I think you forgot the part where Heth replaced everyone within gunshot distance with "totally loyal" individuals.
First rule of government spending: why bribe one when you can have two at twice the price?
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Ha, I just realized that the good Tony is infringing on god-modding player characters by stating that Ishukone has been expelled from the Science and Trade Institute. It is one thing write about what some NPC did in a NPC corporation to trying to dictate what is happening in a corporation with a large amount of player characters. Especially as there is no game mechanic that expels you from STI if you show great support to Ishukone or claim to be an Ishukone citizen.
Or maybe Tony G is the only one allowed to say "you're doing it wrong". :|
There's also the fact that, following whenever Heth barred Ishukone students from the STI, any EVE players who decide to have their STI-graduated characters affiliated with Ishukone are officially doinitwrong.
At least, my understanding is you don't easily swap between Megas, so that's how it'd seem to me.
I think this is an unfortunate victim of the 20% cuts, honestly. If there was a full content/fiction team around that could match this (entirely logical) step with a quick series of news articles bringing this situation to a resolution, it would actually be one of the most reasonable things involving Heth to happen in a while. Unfortunately, we've sort of been left hanging instead, which puts it firmly into "...so what the hell do we do now?" territory.
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The absence of news articles is a bit annoying, yes. :/
Especially considering that there were some events covered in TO that were kind of a bigger deal.
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...and I quickly lose any interest I had in reading this book or actually getting back to playing Eve again. *sigh* It doesn't sound like TonyG learned much at all since TEA, if that synopsis is at all accurate. Or, at least, it doesn't sound like this story is at all what I'm interested in anymore. Would be nice if realism entered into things in some vague way at some point, but...I think things are mostly unsalvageable for me at this point.
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Well, the "good" news is that Tony is "out." The remaining Content people at CCP do all seem coherent.
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Well, the "good" news is that Tony is "out." The remaining Content people at CCP do all seem coherent.
The damage is already done, though, and I honestly have no idea how you walk back some of this stuff. It pretty much kills any good will I have towards Abraxas, Dropbear and the rest if tis went out and none of them stopped Tony to say "uh...you don't think you might want to dial some of this back a little?"
I have no desire to play a game where stuff happens by writer fiat rather than actually making sense, and as a long time Ishukone person (in more ways than one) I have no desire to play out the storyline described here. Jesus Christ. From the looks of some of this stuff, I think reading it might make me more angry than TEA did.
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As a long time Kaalakiota/Mordu's Legion person I also have little desire left to interact in this story setting. I need to spend less time playing video games anyway.
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I have no desire to play a game
I also have little desire left to interact in this story setting. I need to spend less time playing video games anyway.
:(
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I have no desire to play a game
I also have little desire left to interact in this story setting. I need to spend less time playing video games anyway.
:(
How to kill your RP community :bash: :psyccp:
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Fuck it up so badly no-one wants to be part of it anymore?
Seems to work wonders for CCP, if this was their intent. If not, I can only hope they seriously start examining ways to get things back on track for 'makes sense' country.
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There is not a retcon plausible enough to remove the damage that TonyG has done to New Eden.
'They all woke up and the past four years was just a bad dream.'
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There is not a retcon plausible enough to remove the damage that TonyG has done to New Eden.
'They all woke up and the past four years was just a bad dream.'
"End simulation."
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[mod]Rather than go through and eviscerate the thread, I want to remind everyone that no matter how right you think you are, other people can have an opinion, and even if you think it is obviously wrong, that doesn't mean it is. Even if there is a lot to support your point of view, that doesn't mean it's the only one. (This is particularly true when trying to sift truths from PF, as it is uneven at best). There will be disagreements. Please keep discussion on topic and avoid trying to present your opinion as fact.Remember, we aren't here to win arguments, we are here to have discussions. Drowning out other people's views because they disagree with you is a quick way to a warning.[/mod]
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If I knew this was going to be the result of my post, I simply wouldn't have provided the service.
Roleplayers, for all their purported imagination and creativity, appear to be utterly inflexible in terms of adapting to changing circumstances or contradictions to their ingrained, emotionally-based belief systems. I'm not sure what else to say other than to add: Perhaps you should try to read the book, rather than committing character suicide?
The purpose of eve online, from the get-go, is not to be comforted and reassured that what we hold to be true is correct, but to experience conflict, intense and violent conflict, with opposing views/events and dealing with that, and becoming better for it. Hence the term "Crucible" in the latest expansion.
Let's try to have some reflection before we assail some person's existence and spit on his work.
Eve online, much like real life, always rewards engagement over disengagement. Making an effort to participate is 90% of the battle. That's always been my opinion whenever some faction I've aligned with has had things go south; Gallente Federation, Anti-Sansha, Synenose Accord, etc.
Regarding the events in the Caldari State, let me ask you this: Otro Gariushi was killed, and Tibus Heth profited on the result. What part of this makes Ishukone likely to be buddy-buddy with Heth, ever again? And when Heth gives mandatory orders for military participation on said company, wouldn't divergence of Ishukone from Heth become the inevitable result?
What I don't understand is that people continuously muddy the waters and suggest that Tibus Heth 'is' the State. The personal of Heth claims as much, certainly, but that is not the case. The Caldari State waged their civil war and left the Federation because of intrusive government and cultural control by a central authority. Has Tibus Heth not become what the Caldari once hated so thoroughly?
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The Caldari State waged their civil war and left the Federation because of intrusive government and cultural control by a central authority. Has Tibus Heth not become what the Caldari once hated so thoroughly?
I thought the State was already built on an all-intrusive authority dictating just about everything? Your megacorp is yours for life; they choose your job, they choose everything about your daily grind, and you all work at the best of your ability towards the goals of the Megacorp / State?
I'm not an expert on anything State but I thought the society in general was collectivist and all working top-down towards group goals set by those in charge?
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State as a collectivist entity: Correct, up to the corporate level, where they do have considerable autonomy. Heth does even have a latinate name, obviously Gallentean corruption.
Haven't read the story, and based on the limited information available, likely won't waste my money on it, but as of previous information, lots of disenchanted Patriot folks would actually have a potential career in Mordu's Legion Command. That said, previous information told us that Mordu's little gang was in a good standing with the Caldari Navy and other authorities due to display of will to mobilize when Heth had took over Caldari Prime. So how the "current" situation comes from that might be a bit unclear (if I've understood things right), unless we'll see a Caldari civil war. (Yeah right, FW is hard coded to be a forever war.)
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Tibus Heth is as much the State as Hitler is/was Germany. Terrible things happen to states. Sometimes idiots take control of them. Remember that fascists previously held power in the Gallente Federation. That doesn't mean the state is inherently bad. Plenty of Germans opposed Hitler, and this is maybe even more so in the State's case. Ishukone is a pretty damn big megacorp. Hyasyoda doesn't seem to love him, either.
Some of the story might be shit, but roll with it. Don't allow your enjoyment of the core game to get stuck in the mud because of words.
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Yes that was a rant, and not coherent. My main point is the last sentence, though.
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Don't allow your enjoyment of the core game to get stuck in the mud because of words.
When a lot of my enjoyment of the game is because of words it seems unreasonable to expect that words cannot also diminish that enjoyment.
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But you also must realize that you're in the less than 1%-tile of the EVE community that cares about this. I'm honestly surprised at the size of EVE's story-writing and content team considering.
CCP wanted to branch into ancillary products and they didn't do a good job of that. I happen to think that CCP and White Wolf never should have merged. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but mine is that CCP was founded as a game company and first and foremost they will focus on game design. I'm a cynic and don't believe that if a few roleplayers quit over some crappy novels that CCP will take notice.
My advice in that scenario is to play the game anyway, because we do all enjoy it for the game, too.
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My advice in that scenario is to play the game anyway, because we do all enjoy it for the game, too.
/me shrugs
I don't think I'd still be playing Eve if it wasn't for the people I am roleplaying with, or have roleplayed with.
I agree with your point that CCP probably won't care if a bunch of Rpers stop playing because of their PF, but the game itself as a game isn't more fun than a lot of other games I've played and stopped playing when they got dull.
Eve, as a social forum though, it's still drawing me back.
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Because this thread had a big spoiler warning on it, I've avoided it like the plague until I now finished reading the novel. I've poured my thoughts into a blog post (http://www.naraka-alliance.net/myrhial/thoughts-templar/).
In short, I feel a lot of TonyG hate is unjustified and that this book was an improvement on the previous one. I do agree lots of things aren't usable IC directly, but then again it's a novel and not an infodump chronicle. I could criticize those because they're trying to make a story out of facts. Honestly though, I think both play their role in storytelling. Also, I like to think that things not being usable IC is a redeeming factor, because the haters can be very right in just dismissing all information ;)
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I can't speak for the tens of thousands of other EVE players or the role players on this forum, but here is my take on this.
It was never about what is, and what is not, usable in an IC way. It's about what's happened to the EVE Online universe and the setting in it.
When I started playing EVE had a setting with 5 major Empires, 4 playable and a multitude of smaller factions between them. Some allied to specific Empires, some independent, some lawful, some not. The Empires all had different flavors, different styles, different ideas and different ways. They all had their quirks and negative factors and past wars and interactions with one-another that sometimes went smoothly, many times not.
Things happened in space, things happened in the news, players did stuff and sometimes it was reported. The universe felt alive, moving, tangible and REAL. These were human societies lucked down with their different ideals and burdened by their different histories and tales of how badly they had fucked each other over in the past, even if they did officially have peace... at the time. Human societies doing human things with their bit more/bit less than human capsuleer prodigies doing whatever. It was believable, it was nice and in many ways, somewhat simple.
Today, due to a variety of reasons, we have what one player on these very boards refereed to as "A cheap space opera". An opera is usually about some large, grand goal and events far beyond 'mere' humans. This is what EVE has become. All the different factions, all their nuances, differences, ideals and means have been used, twisted around, morphed and sometimes down-right fucked over all to deliver this 'grand epic fucking story' and one can't take a single step without finding something that's either a relic of an abandoned setting and story or something that's a small piece on this grand, majestic opera setting. The empires are catalysts for the epic storyline. There is more than it seems going on. EVERYWHERE. Old ideals and settings are constantly pissed on to make way for what seems convenient for whatever the next big reveal is.
I miss the news that was not some build-up for some major event, but just news, tid-bits of things happening in a universe of humans trying to get by from day-to-day. I miss the human Empires, I miss the clear-cut ideas for what who and what stood for, I miss the time when this whole universe was not just... a cheap B-grade thriller flick, instead of an A-grade story of life and how fucked-up it can be at times. I really miss that.
Apologies ahead if I fail to make myself clear. I'm not even sure myself how to say this so I'll leave this here before I rant on.
In closing in like to state that everything is not entirely bad. I'm just the nostalgic who would like to see some semblance of 'normality' descend on EVE again.
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Bloodbird, I think what you're saying is something like:
It used to be a cluster of lots of small stories, they had variety and believability, and I could be the hero of one of the small stories.
Now it's a cluster of one big story, and all the little nuances have been paved over to service that one big story; and I can't be the hero of that big story.
If so, then I agree with you. If not, then I've misunderstood; could you try to point out where I went wrong? (Possibly I'm seeing that hero thing through my own predjudices, but it is one of the things I see as the big difference between the two positions)
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Mostly correct, but the hero bit was completely off. Not sure who of us are to blame for that one.
The good old 'your the hero!' BS is one of the most glaring down-falls of WoW and a mild case can be seen in TOR. I don't WANT to be the god damn hero. I just want to be a part of the bigger universe, a player among countless others, not THE FUCKING HERO of the show. I do wonder if that would be to much to ask.
Rest is mostly spot-on; I'd love a 'normal' believable universe where everything don't lead up to the 'big epic ending'. I'm playing an MMO - I'm not reading a book/watching a movie.
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Mostly correct, but the hero bit was completely off. Not sure who of us are to blame for that one.
Probably me.
Rest is mostly spot-on; I'd love a 'normal' believable universe where everything don't lead up to the 'big epic ending'. I'm playing an MMO - I'm not reading a book/watching a movie.
A lot of "normal" movie or literature tropes don't work when there isn't actually an end, which is why I don't like them applied to face-to-face RPGs or indeed MMOs. It's possible that the big disconnect between TonyG and Eve is that TonyG is writing a book with the whole book plot format, and Eve as a game doesn't support the world changing climax paradigm at all.
I think we agree. :)
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I actually liked to consider myself the little guy "anti-hero", within the GalFed :lol:
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I see your point Bloodbird, and I half agree. I would like to see more of the smaller stuff, because indeed there has been a focus on big stuff. But on the other hand, we need some big stuff too.
I think with the last dev blog on the chronicles, we'll see more of them again, and thus order may be restored again. I do hope so.
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You start playing Eve in 2003 or 2004 or so. You glance at the setting and it seems like so much cliché, but you enjoy the game and it reminds you of Elite and its successors, so it's all good. Over time, you find that, actually, the setting is pretty nuanced in a lot of ways. There's all those little details in the game that serve to drive your curiosity. Those original developers put so much of themselves into this thing and it shows. There's no big overarching story as such, just a myriad of small stories in all sorts of formats that help bring the world to life. There are the chronicles, which barely hint at some of the machinations of the powerful, but mostly deal with the little guys. They help set the scene for you, the player. They emphasise that there are no real heroes or villains, just people doing their thing; and all of that is only right for a sandbox MMO.
Furthermore, the world is vast, which allows all sorts of latitude for players to create their own niches. Aside from Battlestar Galactica roleplayers, it's almost impossible to go too badly wrong. In many ways it's the gaps that lead to the richest speculation. Still, it becomes apparent that the background material has largely been abandoned over time, and people yearn for more short stories and factual material to keep fleshing out the game world. Some people have great ideas. Ideas that build on the existing material. Some people are pretty damn good at writing and gain recognition among their peers. Some even get jobs at CCP. There is hope.
There are other people, though, that have rather different ideas about what Eve should be. Subtlety and nuance are all very well, and served the game admirably at the beginning, but Epic and Awesome are way more exciting, right? Epic and Awesome are words that have cachet in marketing circles too. Think Big. Think Grand Conspiracy Theories, and Enheduanni and Deus Ex Machina, and monetization of your IP. Eve can be bigger! Better! Bolder! And now with novel tie-ins and movies and, and, and.
Everything changes and there's less and less to hold you. Still, much is promised, so there's always hope for the future. Then it's 2011 and you've been an ex-Eve player longer than you were an active Eve player and you know that you're probably never coming back now.
Now, I don't think that Tony Gonzales is a bad person or anything. I think he's probably a very nice chap. I do think, however, that he was part of a ruinous trend at CCP that led to a culture of empty promises and the triumph of hype over content. I think that he had far too much say in the direction of content delivery. I think that there were a bunch of people hired for all the wrong reasons: people that could talk a good game but couldn't deliver the sort of quality that the product deserved. We've seen how that's worked out.
I think that the real shame of it is that there were plenty of people that could have delivered, but they were honing their craft and engaging with the community instead of busily networking with the right people to get a foot in the door.
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One of the biggest disconnects, for me, is the Capsuleer.
The game tells you every step of the way "you are the Ubermench, you are unbound, untouchable, feared, needed, etc etc etc."
The fiction tells you "You are faffing off in the corner, the REAL story is happening over here in these places you can't go, to these people you can't meet, in crazy occurrances that you're not even allowed to know happened."
The Fiction and the Game are two very different things, and seem to have only a tenuous connection, like one is some alternate 'shard' of the other.
"All of these crappy other worlds are yours, I guess."
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One of the biggest disconnects, for me, is the Capsuleer.
The game tells you every step of the way "you are the Ubermench, you are unbound, untouchable, feared, needed, etc etc etc."
The fiction tells you "You are faffing off in the corner, the REAL story is happening over here in these places you can't go, to these people you can't meet, in crazy occurrances that you're not even allowed to know happened."
The Fiction and the Game are two very different things, and seem to have only a tenuous connection, like one is some alternate 'shard' of the other.
"All of these crappy other worlds are yours, I guess."
I agree. I think one of the great opportunities of these novels is to tell a far-reaching story about capsuleers. We've had 'characters' in these novels that are capsuleers but they are generally low-ranking militia pilots, etc. Not exactly setting the galaxy ablaze with ambition.
Would be easy to set up a great story about even just a few capsuleers. Maybe we follow two pilots who both went through training together as friends, and watch them drift apart as one stays a 'loyalist' trying to help his faction and the other branches off to start his/her own group in direct opposition. The career parallels as one maintains a relationship with the original faction and as the other builds a 'criminal' or independent organization would be great reading. They could clash over time at various points and be in direct confrontation, and weave that story in and out of the PF goings-on
;) Fun!
Some of what makes the universe great are the far-reaching scheming of the capsuleers, weaving their webs of relationships and plots against each other, and the ripples of those actions that effect the baseliners. You could then easily start inserting chapters from the baseliner 'crew' of each side of the conflict. Fun!
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I pretty much agree with Wanoah and Bloodbird at this point. I started playing Eve because I really liked the backstory, and I stuck with it (the second time) because I found a great group of RPers who had found a niche and we were getting better at it all the time.
Kyoko says to play for the game and not the story, and I admit the game part of Eve sounds like it's getting better all the time. But I have put so much effort into the RP, world-building, and storytelling parts of the game that seeing them all dashed upon the rocks just drains me of the enthusiasm I once I had for this game and this world. It frustrates me that someone being paid to write content for the game had less interest in maintaining consistency and providing an interesting world for people to play in than I did as someone doing it for free. I liked the game and loved the people I played with, but the thing that kept me with Eve for so long was the setting and the metaplot, both of which I have basically lost interest in.
I tried coming back when Crucible came out, but it just feels empty to me. It's not a world immerse myself in anymore. It's a world loosely hung on a couple of "iconic" characters I'll never see and never interact with and I can't have any part in changing its course. There's the player stories out in 0.0 -- and for a game that's something that is really great, but I need more than bragging rights to play a game that requires so much investment to really get anything out of it.
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Has the new content on the Fiction Portal not really excited anyone, or are people more thinking about Chronicles that are less 'space opera'? There's a great Gallente religion article around somewhere.
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Has the new content on the Fiction Portal not really excited anyone, or are people more thinking about Chronicles that are less 'space opera'? There's a great Gallente religion article around somewhere.
The Gallente religious practices article is pretty cool. It has lots of potential without being prescriptive, and almost enough that makes me go "Hmmm" to get me moving to show how I think parts of it should be, without being so far away from my preconceptions that there's no room to meet. That's a balance which I tend to value as a roleplayer.
If it were my baby I'd probably refocus it as "Belief systems and cultural practices within the Gallente Federation". The article seems to start from a godly perspective, mentions as it goes that some of the god references are cultural rather than religious, and also touches on atheism and apathy. I tend to see it the other way around: that Gallente civil society is primarily secular, with a religious cultural history that survives mostly as part of its metaphors and cultural stories: more an aesthetic choice than what we'd think of these days as a religious choice.
Given the relatively-recent incorporation into the Federation of a number of cultures which have distinct and distinctive religious belief systems, though, freedom of religion and freedom from religion are both issues for the Gallente. What happens when the kids don't want to be part of their parents' religion? When a religion clashes with the freedoms of individuals? And how much is the Federation an actual federation of states with very different laws and perspectives? The recent information suggests this might be more of a factor than I'd previously thought, which I find interesting.
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What happened to Marius (Falek)? They gave him a lot of schemes in the new book but you don't see him.
I liked the NC reference >.>
"Capable of filling space with inordinate amounts of destruction, the Drake was a formidably armed marvel of Caldari engineering, which was, in the words of its present owner and captain, 'largely underutilized.'" - Direct quote, bolded part is mine for emphasis
PS Do you now feel terrible every time you fly a Strategic Cruiser?
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Has the new content on the Fiction Portal not really excited anyone, or are people more thinking about Chronicles that are less 'space opera'? There's a great Gallente religion article around somewhere.
If any of that stuff ever came up in the game, I'd probably be more excited. Instead it's either Abraxas' torture porn or Tony's...whatever. The game has come down to capsuleers being the TEH AWESOEM except not really because they don't affect anything and the rest of the universe being filled with characters I hate (and not in the good way). So...yeah. From the sound of Templar One, the casual misogyny I gritted my teeth through in TEA appears to be alive and well too, which makes me think I'm just not part of the intended audience for this game anymore either.
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The game has come down to capsuleers being the TEH AWESOEM except not really because they don't affect anything and the rest of the universe being filled with characters I hate (and not in the good way).
One of the problems I had with the fiction as well, though baselining article (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Baselining) relieved many of my issues.
the casual misogyny
Did you know, the imprisoned and bound-on-a-chair former CEO of KK decided to piss herself in a bold defiance of not giving into Tibus Heth's interrogation? It's because, clearly, women make terrible leaders of society, are prone to dramatic emotions, and can't possibly express their viewpoints without doing something immature and neurotic like...pissing all over their chair.
True story.
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Did you know, the imprisoned and bound-on-a-chair former CEO of KK decided to piss herself in a bold defiance of not giving into Tibus Heth's interrogation? It's because, clearly, women make terrible leaders of society, are prone to dramatic emotions, and can't possibly express their viewpoints without doing something immature and neurotic like...pissing all over their chair.
True story.
Please tell me this is an exaggeration.
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Unfortunately, no...
Haatakan, dressed in nothing but undergarments, sat with her arms bound behind her, her head listed to one side, with eyes unfocused and a blank expression on her face.
She hadn't uttered a single word in days.
Heth glared at her for a few moments.
"So you're a masochist now?" he asked. "You know I'm going to find out everything anyway, right?"
Her eyes remained blank as drops of urine began falling from the chair.
"Fine," the dictator said. "The hard way it is"
Good thing TonyG's gone, hmm?
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Ugh. That is...disgusting. And not because of the urine.
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the gallente admiral, is also a recurring character from the empyrean age.
it is flat out written in the text that people suspect she slept her way to her position, which accounts for her less than perfect abilities in it.
and given what we know of her from the empyrean age, (that she likes one-night zero-g stands), then it is clear that those persons suspicions are more than likely to be the "truth".
which then provides an "answer" to why so many female authority figures are less than capable of doing their jobs, including megacorp CEOs, Karin Midular, various Caldari Navy Admirals, Republic Fleet Admirals, the FIO chief and others.
they all slept their way there. :|
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There's literally no female character in TEA, at the very least, who was not portrayed as a semi-helpless sex object. Even Jamyl Sarum was portrayed as a scared little girl and anything forceful she did was as a result of her possessor or whatever. Karin Midular, head of state of one of the largest nations in the cluster, was briefly given a moment of backbone when she told Shakor to go fuck himself, though only after she'd been saved by a near-rape by some big strong mens. Everything that's been posted here about Templar One has only reinforced that particular portrayal.
I can't think of one female character in the entire Eve pantheon I have even the least bit of respect for at this point, frankly. It's fucking insulting to me as a woman and as a thinking human being. It's hard for me to care about a story when the people writing it make it clear they don't think women have a place in it as anything other than victims and whores. I'm not the world's biggest feminist and I wouldn't be bothered so much if it was just one or two characters and if there were just as many men who were also portrayed in such a light, but that isn't the case.
As I said in my TEA review:
...if you are baffled why women don't seem to be interested in a lot of games, it's writing like this that turns them off, folks. Most of these scenes read like something you'd see from someone in a first or second year writing course who is trying way too hard to be "adult" or "edgy" (and boy, did I sit through a lot of those in college) and ends up coming off as fake and empty.
So yeah, when Kyoko says people who have grown to dislike the story should put that aside and just play the game, this is part of why I can't just put that aside. I pour a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into Eve for a long time (7 years plus at this point) and I've finally reached the point where I really just can't do that anymore.
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I can't think of one female character in the entire Eve pantheon I have even the least bit of respect for at this point, frankly.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Silphy_en_Diabel
Single-handedly took over the Syndicate, if that impresses anyone.
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I can't think of one female character in the entire Eve pantheon I have even the least bit of respect for at this point, frankly.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Silphy_en_Diabel
Single-handedly took over the Syndicate, if that impresses anyone.
You realize you're picking nits, right? Especially since she's been in maybe one or two chrons at most. And wasn't there some titillating lesbianism thrown in there for good measure too?
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The origin story for Karin Midular was impressive too, and look what happened to her.
The only reason Silphy has not been whored out yet is the fact there are only about 2 stories that are about her; her origin story and Ante, IIRC. She shared that one with another toon people hardly hear about either; The only member of the Sarpathi family of any value. (Can't recall exact name atm, you all know who it is.)
Frankly the misogyny is another one of those factors that makes one wonder if CCP has any fucking idea what they are doing with their own story or if anyone in that company cares anymore. There are a few examples of the opposite, luckily, but it still makes one wonder...
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The misogynistic aspects of EVE are quite odd, because as far as I can tell CCP folks are scandinavians and the culture itself is pretty gender equal (in the harsh conditions of the north, you need both sexes to work hard so that you can prosper.)
Unless they are part of some internet hate cult that thinks its a great big eL-Oh-eL to disrespect 'bitches'.
Well, when you actually think of it... the HTFU video and all that...
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Templar One bothers me because it tries hard to tell the story of Eve, rather than a story in EVE.
An MMO, and certainly a sandbox one, is at its best when there are innumerable various storylines and narratives working together, creating a living universe. Templar One reduces all those stories to rather meaningless background noise.
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Worth mentioning TonyG is from New Jersey. His upbringing/background may influence the way he approaches his writing, and the way he worldbuilds.
For example, the whole characterization and dialogue within Templar One is very American and Hollywood. Little considerations to the fact that different cultures talk and interact in different ways.
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Worth mentioning TonyG is from New Jersey. His upbringing/background may influence the way he approaches his writing, and the way he worldbuilds.
For example, the whole characterization and dialogue within Templar One is very American and Hollywood. Little considerations to the fact that different cultures talk and interact in different ways.
Yeah, Ive read a lot of really bad authors from England too. Please take ridiculous cultural bias somewhere else.
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Templar One bothers me because it tries hard to tell the story of Eve, rather than a story in EVE.
An MMO, and certainly a sandbox one, is at its best when there are innumerable various storylines and narratives working together, creating a living universe. Templar One reduces all those stories to rather meaningless background noise.
Yeah, I tend to agree with this too. I think I made that point about TEA and then I wrote a blog post about the difference between narrative, background, and metaplot -- I think CCP, or at least Tony, has confused metaplot with narrative. Not to go back to an oft-plumbed well, but I think Shadowrun's Burning Bright shows how you can write a personal narrative that shows off your metaplot, without making the metaplot the actual story. Players want to see how they can fit into the bigger events happening around them, they don't want to hear about your GM PCs being super awesome and ultrapowerful and showing how they are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The main characters in Burning Bright are a private detective, his ally spirit, a corporate secretary, and an Ares special forces soldier, not the CEO of Ares, the President of the UCAS, and Lofwyr the Great Dragon.
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Svetlana, yeah....
Is there anything I could do to help you find/make/visit a corner of the EVEworld that was engaging for you? Throw a young and questioning Caldari at your feet, wanting to know how it should all fit together?
Also noting that I've found myself making guesses about the backgrounds of the writers of various parts of the fiction wiki. Now if only I had a way to find out if my guesses are correct. ;)
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Svetlana, yeah....
Is there anything I could do to help you find/make/visit a corner of the EVEworld that was engaging for you? Throw a young and questioning Caldari at your feet, wanting to know how it should all fit together?
At this point, I don't think so. I love Eve as a game -- especially what I've seen these days, I think it still about the only MMO that really embraces the potential of the medium. But I've been so wrapped up in the story for so long that it's hard for me to separate the two now, and story and setting are a big part of what draw me to games. The fact that what I've written about the Caldari appears to be quite different from what CCP wants to portray these days doesn't help my excitement over the game either, considering it basically means I wasted a lot of time on what comes down to mental masturbation. I love the stuff in the fiction portal, but it feels like there was way more effort put into making that really good only to have the metaplot (well, in this case Templar One, which I admit I only have people's posts here to go on about) written with far less effort put into making the world consistent and interesting. The fiction portal is only useful if the people actually doing the writing use it (and, preferably, have someone editing their work whose job is to make sure it is consistent with that information).
I really don't want to bag on the CCP folks too much -- I don't think any of them are bad people, and I actually think Abraxas, Gnauton, and Dropbear are good writers, if not always to my taste -- but the universe they are writing about one is not one that I am interested in much at all anymore. Certainly not one that I feel passionate enough about to want to devote a good chunk of time playing in and writing about.
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Wow, just read the OP and parts of the thread.
Way to go to completely get me disassociated with a setting that I used to love. I just can't recognize what I initially got hooked on from what we're seeing here. I mean, I've been feeling more and more like that as time went on and the setting was getting fleshed out by new folks, but seems like the latest Eve novel just utterly describes something I'm not at all interested in.
Oh well, too bad. Good job recapping all that to everyone here, though!
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If any of that stuff ever came up in the game, I'd probably be more excited. Instead it's either Abraxas' torture porn or Tony's...whatever. The game has come down to capsuleers being the TEH AWESOEM except not really because they don't affect anything and the rest of the universe being filled with characters I hate (and not in the good way). So...yeah. From the sound of Templar One, the casual misogyny I gritted my teeth through in TEA appears to be alive and well too, which makes me think I'm just not part of the intended audience for this game anymore either.
You know, I could not put my finger on it, but I always felt there was something I strongly disliked in the way women were portrayed in TEA. In fact to such a degree that if I ever get the possibility I am going to utterly destroy the Minmatar Elders no matter how much "forced-down-the-throat" heroes they are supposed to be.
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I can't think of one female character in the entire Eve pantheon I have even the least bit of respect for at this point, frankly.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Silphy_en_Diabel
Single-handedly took over the Syndicate, if that impresses anyone.
You realize you're picking nits, right? Especially since she's been in maybe one or two chrons at most. And wasn't there some titillating lesbianism thrown in there for good measure too?
I was picking no nits, I was offering hope. D:
Maybe the next writer CCP finds will be less of a tragedy? vOv
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You know, I could not put my finger on it, but I always felt there was something I strongly disliked in the way women were portrayed in TEA. In fact to such a degree that if I ever get the possibility I am going to utterly destroy the Minmatar Elders no matter how much "forced-down-the-throat" heroes they are supposed to be.
I do not think there are any women in TEA who are not portrayed as either pathetic victims or sex objects at some point during the book (and both isn't out of the question either). There's no woman who is portrayed as competent and as a person throughout the whole thing. The CEO of a megacorporation is so incompetent as to lose her giant company to a forklift operator for no apparent reason, the Prime Minister of the Republic has members of her own security staff who try to rape her and throws tantrums when dealing with her political opponents, and the future Empress is a barely-legal sexpot that's a crying little girl being possessed by some Jovian that does all the important stuff. A Gallente officer sleeps with her subordinates because, hey, whatever, and the woman on the stupid frigate stays on board with a drunken, abusive whoremonger as captain because...I have no idea why.
Midular's one moment of defiance was refreshing because it the one time a woman actually made a choice for herself that didn't seem to be just going along with the plot of the book. So much so that I almost wondered if someone else had stuck it in there as metacommentary.
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You know, I could not put my finger on it, but I always felt there was something I strongly disliked in the way women were portrayed in TEA. In fact to such a degree that if I ever get the possibility I am going to utterly destroy the Minmatar Elders no matter how much "forced-down-the-throat" heroes they are supposed to be.
I do not think there are any women in TEA who are not portrayed as either pathetic victims or sex objects at some point during the book (and both isn't out of the question either). There's no woman who is portrayed as competent and as a person throughout the whole thing. The CEO of a megacorporation is so incompetent as to lose her giant company to a forklift operator for no apparent reason, the Prime Minister of the Republic has members of her own security staff who try to rape her and throws tantrums when dealing with her political opponents, and the future Empress is a barely-legal sexpot that's a crying little girl being possessed by some Jovian that does all the important stuff. A Gallente officer sleeps with her subordinates because, hey, whatever, and the woman on the stupid frigate stays on board with a drunken, abusive whoremonger as captain because...I have no idea why.
Midular's one moment of defiance was refreshing because it the one time a woman actually made a choice for herself that didn't seem to be just going along with the plot of the book. So much so that I almost wondered if someone else had stuck it in there as metacommentary.
I agree that TonyG has problems writing for female characters. They're more plot objects than human beings.
That said, its not like he's particularly good at writing decent or well rounded male characters either.
Edit: Thats unfortunately a trend in a lot of sci-fi, even nominally good sci fi (Heinlein for instance was flat out terrible at writing female characters). Actual human characters and development take a backseat to the setting
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Worth mentioning TonyG is from New Jersey. His upbringing/background may influence the way he approaches his writing, and the way he worldbuilds.
For example, the whole characterization and dialogue within Templar One is very American and Hollywood. Little considerations to the fact that different cultures talk and interact in different ways.
Yeah, Ive read a lot of really bad authors from England too. Please take ridiculous cultural bias somewhere else.
So, all authors are completely immune to writing from their unique cultural perspectives? You'll notice the one thing I inferred regarding his origins from New Jersey is not his portrayal of woman, but a very Hollywood-esque style of exposition. It can be as mundane as using capital letters for military rank abbreviations (SSG for Staff Sergeant...that's US Army...other armies may use SSgt, S/Sgt, so forth)
Three of the four EVE factions arguably are not primarily influenced by the modern Western world, yet it's all written from a Western perspective.
It's not "ridiculous cultural bias"; you can't possibly think there's this imaginary Standard that all authors write from as a platform.
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I don't think his cultural bias has anything to do with the problems in that book really.
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I'd like to thank all those spoilering here in this thread.
I wasn't going to buy the book and haven't. it just so happens though that a friend had gotten a review copy that he passed to me.
Some thirty pages in and I'm already finding outright faults as to how the ingame reality works vis a vi the book.
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Worth mentioning TonyG is from New Jersey. His upbringing/background may influence the way he approaches his writing, and the way he worldbuilds.
For example, the whole characterization and dialogue within Templar One is very American and Hollywood. Little considerations to the fact that different cultures talk and interact in different ways.
Yeah, Ive read a lot of really bad authors from England too. Please take ridiculous cultural bias somewhere else.
So, all authors are completely immune to writing from their unique cultural perspectives? You'll notice the one thing I inferred regarding his origins from New Jersey is not his portrayal of woman, but a very Hollywood-esque style of exposition. It can be as mundane as using capital letters for military rank abbreviations (SSG for Staff Sergeant...that's US Army...other armies may use SSgt, S/Sgt, so forth)
Three of the four EVE factions arguably are not primarily influenced by the modern Western world, yet it's all written from a Western perspective.
It's not "ridiculous cultural bias"; you can't possibly think there's this imaginary Standard that all authors write from as a platform.
Thats not the point. Its your fundamental points I find wrong. As someone who has traveled in Europe, studied European history, has friends who live in Europe, has European clients, studied law in Europe for a time, and works for a European company, I can argue quite solidly that Europe has all kinds of issues on interacting with and integrating various cultures, easy as challenging as the US, if not more so. (US companies are actually very very good at navigating and interacting with other cultures, its why i can buy godawful mcdonalds and KFC in the US, Europe and China, if convincing other cultures to buy terrible terrible food isnt an example of skillful cultural interactions, I dont know what is) To say that TonyGs terrible writing stems from a particular aspect of a particular culture is, in my eyes, quite ignorant.
Again, for you to say that Hollywood serves as the main thrust of American literature, as opposed to say Faulker, Hemmingway, Steinbeck, etc, is again, a very very ignorant position that most Literature scholars would likely snort at. Its an influence, sure, no doubt, but if youre going to talk literature, talk literature. If all you know of American literature is Hollywood ans fluff/pop sci-fi literature, then I would suggest you should broaden your world and read better books.
Keep in mind Hollywood makes 70% of their money overseas, for every one american who pays money to see an American film, two and a half non-Americans do as well (likely a lot more, given price differences and currency rates), they just dont make movies for US audiences. Its not just Americans who pay for explosions and big breasts Im not saying its not an influence, but its hardly the only one, or a uniquely American one.
I mean, hell, youve said yourself Seri is influenced by Shepard from Mass Effect. It used to be your profile pic Youre telling me Mass Effect isnt basically a video game version of a blockbuster Hollywood sci-fi movie trilogy, and Shepard isnt your arch-typical Hollywood hero/anti-hero? It literally plays to a vast number of Hollywood movie cliches, almost scene for scene and trope for trope. Its not just TonyG whos been influenced by Hollywood when interpreting EVE (hint, you are too, lots and lots)
Its not that I think the point that authors write from a particular culture is wrong. Its that I think youre biased and ignorant when it comes to cultural comparisons and literature, or even your own biases and influences.
That said, I dont really have any interest in arguing cultural problems and issues. I have my own opinions and views, which no doubt upset some people on the forum. We all do. This isnt the place for them. This is about EVE RP. Im here to talk about TonyGs shitty writing. So I keep such views to myself, for the good of the forum and the community. I do so because (shockingly) I understand Im an American, and spouting off my views as truth to other people from other cultures is in fact a very poor way to interact with differing cultures. To avoid being hypocritical. you should as well.
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Worth mentioning TonyG is from New Jersey. His upbringing/background may influence the way he approaches his writing, and the way he worldbuilds.
For example, the whole characterization and dialogue within Templar One is very American and Hollywood. Little considerations to the fact that different cultures talk and interact in different ways.
Yeah, Ive read a lot of really bad authors from England too. Please take ridiculous cultural bias somewhere else.
So, all authors are completely immune to writing from their unique cultural perspectives? You'll notice the one thing I inferred regarding his origins from New Jersey is not his portrayal of woman, but a very Hollywood-esque style of exposition. It can be as mundane as using capital letters for military rank abbreviations (SSG for Staff Sergeant...that's US Army...other armies may use SSgt, S/Sgt, so forth)
Three of the four EVE factions arguably are not primarily influenced by the modern Western world, yet it's all written from a Western perspective.
It's not "ridiculous cultural bias"; you can't possibly think there's this imaginary Standard that all authors write from as a platform.
Thats not the point. Its your fundamental points I find wrong. As someone who has traveled in Europe, studied European history, has friends who live in Europe, has European clients, studied law in Europe for a time, and works for a European company, I can argue quite solidly that Europe has all kinds of issues on interacting with and integrating various cultures, easy as challenging as the US, if not more so. (US companies are actually very very good at navigating and interacting with other cultures, its why i can buy godawful mcdonalds and KFC in the US, Europe and China, if convincing other cultures to buy terrible terrible food isnt an example of skillful cultural interactions, I dont know what is) To say that TonyGs terrible writing stems from a particular aspect of a particular culture is, in my eyes, quite ignorant.
First of all. I´m not in general on the opposite-side. But here have I to intervene. It is actually just the small point about companies as representation of the culture. I think, the doku "Amerika made in Hollywood" (http://www.imdb.de/title/tt0900897/) has made a good point about this... In short-form is, that a product alone can´t even define just elments of the culture like freedom or egalitarianism. Doesnt mean that companies sell it as a point to there products, see for example the World of Coca-Cola exhibition (http://www.wtfpod.com/podcast/episodes/episode_159_-_adam_carolla) (sadly I cannt find a free link:(, but wasnt really funny, I would say just average :lol:).
My point about the whole book was: See here (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=635422#post635422). After re-read some parts, I even think it is better than TEA, less fantasy creatures, like elders etc... not that I have a general proplem with this theme, I like sci fi fantasy, it just that I saw EVE more in the cyperpunk corner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk#Film_and_television). In the beginning, I was even close to make even a gallente char, because of the old race pic (http://bestgamewallpapers.com/files/eve-online/gallente.jpg). So for me I was actually ready for everything when I start Templar One, thats why my fall was less hard :P. Just joking, but for a game-book is it, between okay and meh (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meh)...
About: "US companies are actually very very good at navigating and interacting with other cultures" I would say it has more to do with resources they spent. But most likely it is just me... because Im a little homo economicus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus) and not a homo sociologicus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus#Homo_sociologicus). I would say a company X is good in navigating and interacting with other cultures, because this company put resources in it (Labour, Capital). So the culturelle background of this black box (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://wirtschaftslexikon.gabler.de/Definition/black-box.html&ei=7skzT5LFBs2LswazjY2sDA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dblack%2Bbox%2Bbwl%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D1680%26bih%3D898%26prmd%3Dimvns) doesnt really count for me (but Im a VWLer/Economics not a BWLer/Business economics). I think you both start more from the homo sociologicus, which I as a german can say...Is so german :P .... (just joking) I try just to show, culture can have even a inpact in our little world, and it always started whan we go away form a positivistic/scientific view. So before we start with X or Y, we should define this points... for example I think Seriphyn had something like "´Jersey Shore" in mind, scripted reality TV with easy accessible characters and with a easy story-plot. I think Gottii had something, to have a modern example, something like "Beloved" in mind or ehm.... - to have a bestseller comparison to the jersey shore - "Game of Thrones". And I have to say you both are wrong. Sorry.... because both are elments of the same culture, its like colin quinn in long story short (http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6310191) describe "American culture isnt just the enlightenment and wisdom of the founding fathers, it is also snooki on her phone (somewhere here (http://vimeo.com/27074758)).[...] And I hate to bring the news to you not everybody likes to have girls gone wild in their culture." :P I know... I know he is just comedian etc...
The larger point is.... If some likes to say X or Y and/or just Y or X is american or german etc... I will come and hunt you people with popper and f**k your hippi-asses with your own homo sociologicus :P
P.S. Today is bullshit bingo... and I have already "hippi-asses"... I think today, I have a run.
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So I finished Templar One last night. My overall impressions? It was better than Empyrean Age, but that's not saying much for the quality of Templar One. Templar One was, generally, a bit of a mess of a book and had numerous weaknesses from a pure writing standpoint. I'm not going to even delve into any continuity problems (I only noticed a few and at least one of them [the oft-denigrated Terran station from 14000 years before the EVE Gate collapsed] I can fairly confidently claim was a result of poor editing rather than Tony just not knowing better) or conflicts with EVE's style and tone (of which there were many, but others have covered in greater detail). Rather, I'm looking at it simply from the writing perspective.
The biggest issue was that there were no protagonists or antagonists and it had no real conflict. The novel was about a bunch of characters all working toward the same general goals. Mordu's Legion, the Federation, and Ishukone all had identical goals (getting Templar tech) and never worked against each other in any way; in the end, they all end up working together. About 2/3rds of the way through, the Amarr essentially had the same goals as well. The presence of other factions was minimal to the point of irrelevance. Heth and the State were background players who essentially only tacked on extra (unneeded) motivation for Mens, while the Republic was so absent from the narrative as to have been rendered irrelevant. The only group that may have been working slightly against the characters was CONCORD, but they also had virtually no effect on any of the plot. They were there, but ultimately nothing they did had the slightest impact.
A small case could be made that the Other was the antagonist, but it did nothing in the book aside from make Jamyl fall from the podium. Its actions, too, were ultimately irrelevant in the narrative. It set the plot in motion and has vaguely defined sinister motives (at least according to Grious), but it did little to actually advance those motives. It certainly did not actively work against any of the characters in the novel or attempt to prevent them from succeeding. It was just there. A bit of information that had no real relevance to the plot of the novel.
Finally, the pacing and plotting of the novel was jumbled and there was far too much unnecessary parts. For example, the background of Jacus Roden was entirely pointless. It added nothing to the story. Nothing presented impacted the plot in the slightest and it only presented a small expansion of Roden's personality, one that was utterly detached from Roden's portrayal in other parts of the novel (which does make sense, as 70 years had passed, so he should not be the same personality wise). There were other, similar sections that really had no point being in the novel and only served to make it longer. For the most part, these were sections that were prefaced by "XXX years ago", though some of them (such as the scene where Gable is captured by the Valklears) at least serve to set up other parts of the action. The novel could have been 100 pages shorter and been much tighter if such sections had been excised.
Now a novel without a central conflict or defined protagonists or antagonists can work, but it requires exceptional writing and characters to pull off. Templar One has neither of those things.
The characters themselves were all basically flat. No one had much beneath their surface, with a few small exceptions, and even those were not really explored much. Characters were all driven by one basic thought pattern and that was it. The actions of any individual were mostly predictable given the circumstances they were in. No one did anything surprising or unexpected or human. They were all clearly there to push forward a plot and little else.
The writing wasn't actually too bad. But there were numerous problems. One of the biggest ones was the frequent misuse of common sentence constructions. There were a lot of them, but there were two that particularly stuck out to me.
The first came early in the novel. The line goes something like "That was the honest truth, if not a pathetic one." This is not how the "It was XXX, if not XXX" works. That phrasing is supposed to be used to imply that the second clause is of greater magnitude, but may not be reached, than the first, which is definitely reached. Examples of proper usage are "It was a snow storm, if not a blizzard" or "He was the richest man in the world, if not the entire universe." The way it is written in the book makes no sense. What was intended (I believe) is the "The truth may or may not be pathetic, but it was at least honest." Instead, it comes across as "The truth is honest, but it probably hasn't reached pathetic yet."
The second came later in the novel. Two characters are standing next to each other, one is tall and one is short. I think it's Gable standing next to someone (I don't remember who). The line is roughly "Standing next to him, she was barely 150cm tall." This phrasing is intended as a comparison of two things, with the one in the second being compared in proportion to the one in the first, where generally the second is considered exceptional in some way. For example "Next to him, she seemed small" for someone who is normally tall or "Next to the Jove, the Caldari seemed primitive" or similar. In the sentence as given, the character is ALWAYS 150cm tall, it doesn't matter who she is standing next to. Her height does not change when different people stand next to her. Additionally, she would seem short next to almost anyone. At 150cm, she is short for any adult woman.
There was also a tendency in the text to be repetitive with the class or type of a thing, especially early on. If a ship was established as a Panther-class gunship, every action would be performed by "the Panther-class gunship" as opposed to simply "the gunship". The same thing with weapons and the like. The text was written as if the reader needed to be constantly reminded of facts presented a paragraph or two before. Or like it was ham-fisted product placement ("This is most awesome Dodge Charger I've ever seen! I'm going to take this Dodge Charger out on a spin around town. Everyone will be so impressed with my new Dodge Charger.") I'm not sure if this problem arose simply because it was assumed the readers would be idiots (which is a cardinal sin in writing, in my opinion) or if it was an attempt to create some sort of DUST 514 "brand recognition". Either way, it was abrasive and jarring.
The dialogue was at least unobtrusive. I rarely read a line and groaned because of how much it sounded like something nobody would ever say. But at the same time, it was not particularly striking. There were a lot of predictable conversations, with dialogue that was essentially generic and could have come from any of the characters.
Finally, there's the issue of the portrayal of women and how they're all essentially shown as weak, incompetent, and in the subservient to men. Others have touched on it better than I could. Suffice to say, when the most powerful and important women in the novel all have scenes where they're passively submitting to mental and sexualized domination by men, there's a problem.
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Im very much from an economic background, especially in my current field of work. I think that the creation of labor and capital in a foreign market is, by necessity, an example of skillful cultural interaction. It takes more than just money. By thats an argument way, way outside the scope of this thread (like most of what I've said, alas).
Mostly I was reacting to Seri's inane "American culture is to blame for TonyG's poor sci-fi writing". He would like to believe that American culture precludes good literature in general, and sci-fi in particular. American culture didnt really stop such sci-fi authors like Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Ray Bradbury, Philip K. Dick, Frank Herbert, Ursula Le Guin, Orson Scott Card, Fred Saberhagen, Larry Niven, Joe Halderman, William Gibson, Greg Bear, Kim Stanley Robinson, Carl Sagan, Dan Simmons (just off the top of my head), did it? In fact you could argue that there is something about American culture that actually produces a high number of good sci-fi writers.
In short, he made an utterly ignorant and biased argument against another culture without having put much, if any, thought or effort into his position. He acted very "American" (ignorant when talking about/to other cultures, mistaking uneducated bias as obvious truth). I found it ridiculous.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread!
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Great review, Yoshi!
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Yoshito Sanders nice summarisation. I see it the same way... (I had the same thought about the Panther gunship).
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Im very much from an economic background, especially in my current field of work. I think that the creation of labor and capital in a foreign market is, by necessity, an example of skillful cultural interaction. It takes more than just money. By thats an argument way, way outside the scope of this thread (like most of what I've said, alas).
Mostly I was reacting to Seri's inane "American culture is to blame for TonyG's poor sci-fi writing". He would like to believe that American culture precludes good literature in general, and sci-fi in particular. American culture didnt really stop such sci-fi authors like Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Ray Bradbury, Philip K. Dick, Frank Herbert, Ursula Le Guin, Orson Scott Card, Fred Saberhagen, Larry Niven, Joe Halderman, William Gibson, Greg Bear, Kim Stanley Robinson, Carl Sagan, Dan Simmons (just off the top of my head), did it? In fact you could argue that there is something about American culture that actually produces a high number of good sci-fi writers.
In short, he made an utterly ignorant and biased argument against another culture without having put much, if any, thought or effort into his position. He acted very "American" (ignorant when talking about/to other cultures, mistaking uneducated bias as obvious truth). I found it ridiculous.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread!
Sure, sure... And Im a fan of it... just add Stanislaw Lem (I was a little Ijon Tichy fan)...
About the first point... like I said... I see it more under the influenz of Popper... so Im more in numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports) (and I just dont just linked it because Im german, I think you right... If you think... that this topic isnt just numbers, but in numbers "we" are a little ahead... and were even "Weltmeister"/"world champion" from 2002 to 2008 until China got "our" first place :cry:....I think next to the actual numbers you have "soft institutions" (sanctions, taboos, customs, traditions, code of conduct), which are also importent, but also not to measure) ... If not the homo sociologicus..... Ehm maybe a RREEMM Model (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RREEMM&ei=Gc82T9PdBIz2sgaZ2q29CQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRREEMM%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D1680%26bih%3D898%26prmd%3Dimvnsb).... But like you said... very off topic :P
Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread!
I also find it weird that Jonas Varitec had a charakter-gap... I mean from TEA to Templar One.... TEA ends for him, that he gets a drake and goes to the Kingdom... and in Templar One is he in the legion (without a privat-owned ship... how it looks)... I know, I know a narrator doesnt need to explain all of the stuff.... but it was a little ...ehm k, moment for me.
Edit: But it is only a minor thing.
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In short, he made an utterly ignorant and biased argument against another culture without having put much, if any, thought or effort into his position. He acted very "American" (ignorant when talking about/to other cultures, mistaking uneducated bias as obvious truth). I found it ridiculous.
I totally forgot: He doesnt act "American", he acted "Gallente".... we both, you and me, you and me... man, we know how they are... :P
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I totally forgot: He doesnt act "American", he acted "Gallente".... we both, you and me, you and me... man, we know how they are... :P
Ooooh...sick burn. +1
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Just got the book and am looking forward to reading it (seriously).
Had a peek into the "Acknowledgments" chapter in the back, though. Hm, no mention of Abraxas (Hjalti Danielsson) along with the rest of the Content team. Weird... or not.
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Just got the book and am looking forward to reading it (seriously).
Had a peek into the "Acknowledgments" chapter in the back, though. Hm, no mention of Abraxas (Hjalti Danielsson) along with the rest of the Content team. Weird... or not.
I noticed that too and also thought it was an odd omission. I am unsure if it is particularly meaningful, however.
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In short, he made an utterly ignorant and biased argument against another culture without having put much, if any, thought or effort into his position. He acted very "American" (ignorant when talking about/to other cultures, mistaking uneducated bias as obvious truth). I found it ridiculous.
I totally forgot: He doesnt act "American", he acted "Gallente".... we both, you and me, you and me... man, we know how they are... :P
:)
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I noticed that too and also thought it was an odd omission. I am unsure if it is particularly meaningful, however.
I think it is...as IP manager, TonyG isn't obliged to communicate down the ladder. If he did, the Content/Storyline team saying Jamyl is 100+ years old and TonyG saying she is 27 wouldn't have happened.
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First of all. I´m not in general on the opposite-side. But here have I to intervene. It is actually just the small point about companies as representation of the culture. I think, the doku "Amerika made in Hollywood" (http://www.imdb.de/title/tt0900897/) has made a good point about this... In short-form is, that a product alone can´t even define just elments of the culture like freedom or egalitarianism. Doesnt mean that companies sell it as a point to there products, see for example the World of Coca-Cola exhibition (http://www.wtfpod.com/podcast/episodes/episode_159_-_adam_carolla) (sadly I cannt find a free link:(, but wasnt really funny, I would say just average :lol:).
Saw this (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/409087/february-23-2012/wheat-thins-sponsortunity) today and most think on this diskussion.... I know very off topic.... but was actually funny :P
So I hope you all can forgive me. :lol:
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I started reading it, and I had to just stop and put it on the shelf.
I hate to be critical of people's work given I'm trying my hardest to write and develop my own style, as makes me feel hypocritical to lambaste someone else, but it's hands down the worst book I've ever read, by a long shot.
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So at what point can we actually discuss the more public fallout from this book ICly without people crying "WTF SPOILERS?"
The Battle in Amamake would easily be on the rumour mill, especially talk of the Ishu-Mordu-Roden co-operation that "apparently took place."
Also Heth revoking all Ishukone enrolment into the S&T would be major news, as well as the general feeling of hostility towards Ishukone from State loyalists.
Considering all these events have already happened in game it just seems odd to not be able to ICly discuss them.
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So at what point can we actually discuss the more public fallout from this book ICly without people crying "WTF SPOILERS?"
The Battle in Amamake would easily be on the rumour mill, especially talk of the Ishu-Mordu-Roden co-operation that "apparently took place."
Also Heth revoking all Ishukone enrolment into the S&T would be major news, as well as the general feeling of hostility towards Ishukone from State loyalists.
Considering all these events have already happened in game it just seems odd to not be able to ICly discuss them.
But from the same perspective, we should have already discussed them. They happened in the past, like year or two. It isn't "news."
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So at what point can we actually discuss the more public fallout from this book ICly without people crying "WTF SPOILERS?"
The Battle in Amamake would easily be on the rumour mill, especially talk of the Ishu-Mordu-Roden co-operation that "apparently took place."
Also Heth revoking all Ishukone enrolment into the S&T would be major news, as well as the general feeling of hostility towards Ishukone from State loyalists.
Considering all these events have already happened in game it just seems odd to not be able to ICly discuss them.
But from the same perspective, we should have already discussed them. They happened in the past, like year or two. It isn't "news."
This also begs the question "where did all of these Ishukone pilots that became capsuleers in the past year or so get educated"? Should those capsuleers be flying around with SWA or SAK school affiliations? Or did the Federation decide to admit capsule-compatible Ishukone pilots to UoC -- something else that would also have been/be/would be/would haven beed big news in the past year or so?
However, since I've finished reading Templar One, I feel I need to point out a couple of things:
Thing #1: Tony never actually mentioned the Science and Trade Institute. Reppola's daughter was kicked out of a university called the State Science Academy.
[spoiler]
“He doesn’t know,” muttered Ralirashi Okimo, the Chief Technical Officer of Ishukone, a grave look on his face. “I’m sorry to be the one to tell you this, but the State Science Academy has formally revoked your daughter’s enrollment, citing our lack of participation in the TRUST Act.”
The words nearly took the air out of his lungs.
So that’s what she wanted to tell me, Mens thought.
“They made a scene of it: Bastards literally pulled her right out of class, in front of everyone. The same exclusion criterion will likely be applied retroactively to all Ishukone residents,” Ralirashi continued. “Heth is using the example of your daughter to send a warning to others.”
I’m losing my family for this, Mens thought, lost in a trance as he stood among colleagues who were helpless to do anything except avoid looking at him directly. The only thing that I could give her to make up for my absence in her life was that institution, where the best minds of Caldari science and culture had gone.
She’d opened that door by herself, using her own smarts and work ethic. All I had to do was hold it open for her.
Gonzales, Tony (2012-01-03). EVE: Templar One (Kindle Locations 311-321). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
[/spoiler]
Thing #2: Tony also never suggested that Amile Reppola was a capsuleer. While he implied that the TRUST-associated ban on Ishukone students applies to all universities within the State, it's never said if the same ban is extended to Ishukone capsule-compatible students and the State's capsuleer training programs.
[spoiler]“I’m not saying we should,” she answered. “I’m … proud of you, Dad. Proud to be your daughter. Sometimes, I think Mother resents me for supporting you so much. But if it’s going to be us against everyone else, we need to be closer. I want to be more a part of your life. I have a right to take an active role in protecting myself. It’s not that I don’t trust you to do that … it’s just that this is personal now. I hate the people who did this to us as much as you do. So if the State won’t let me into their damn universities … then you’re just going to have to teach me everything you know.”
Gonzales, Tony (2012-01-03). EVE: Templar One (Kindle Locations 2493-2497). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
[/spoiler]
And 'State Science Academy' translates to STI for folks? Eh? Personally, I'd translate it as SAK ... but anyway, the point I'm flailing to get to is that the TRUST ban on Ishukone students attending State institutions may not apply/have applied to capsuleers, and as a result, [sarcasm] it didn't even register as a blip on capsuleer-oriented news services, because, as we know, we're all raging demigods that could care less about the puny little ant people. [/sarcasm].
[spoiler]As a side note, I only wish I could say that the actions of Mens' wife were screechingly unrealistic. To my ancient brain, Amile also acted entirely too young to be a university student, even if she was cognizant of the socioenvironmental gulf that existed between her and her former classmates: I wish some verbiage would have been included early in the novel that established her age, especially if the book was using the "Caldari education is efficient: students within the State routinely enter university-level education sooner than their counterparts in the Federation, Empire or Republic" model.
[/spoiler]
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And 'State Science Academy' translates to STI for folks? Eh? Personally, I'd translate it as SAK ... but anyway,
But it is an important difference in interpretation. STI was Ishukone owned/funded, SAK was Lai Dai owned/funded. Seems much easier to sell the Lai Dai appointed leadership of SAK to ban Ishukone students from its school.
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And 'State Science Academy' translates to STI for folks? Eh? Personally, I'd translate it as SAK ... but anyway,
But it is an important difference in interpretation. STI was Ishukone owned/funded, SAK was Lai Dai owned/funded. Seems much easier to sell the Lai Dai appointed leadership of SAK to ban Ishukone students from its school.
Quite true!
I'd imagine if STI was pressured to kick out Ishukone students, Zainou'd just want to shut the school down entirely.
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I started reading it, and I had to just stop and put it on the shelf.
I hate to be critical of people's work given I'm trying my hardest to write and develop my own style, as makes me feel hypocritical to lambaste someone else, but it's hands down the worst book I've ever read, by a long shot.
It only makes you a hypocrite if you believe your own work should not be criticized.
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I started reading it, and I had to just stop and put it on the shelf.
I hate to be critical of people's work given I'm trying my hardest to write and develop my own style, as makes me feel hypocritical to lambaste someone else, but it's hands down the worst book I've ever read, by a long shot.
It only makes you a hypocrite if you believe your own work should not be criticized.
Yoshito is wise. I think you would want to know if others found your work to be so harmful to EVE PF.
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I started reading it, and I had to just stop and put it on the shelf.
I hate to be critical of people's work given I'm trying my hardest to write and develop my own style, as makes me feel hypocritical to lambaste someone else, but it's hands down the worst book I've ever read, by a long shot.
It only makes you a hypocrite if you believe your own work should not be criticized.
This. If Tony G's work is crap as far as your concerned, you do have the right to voice that opinion freely no matter how much you write yourself.
On a personal level, I'm not sure I've achieved making this clear or not, but my primary issue with Tony's work is not the quality of the works themselves, but the fact that they are based in the supposedly sand-box EVE online, and do a good job of pissing all over the box to ruin it and replace it with... well, some grand opera-grade scheme. Maybe that works in most other stories and books, but not in EVE's setting.
I doubt it is/was CCP's intention as they like to promote their sand-box setting, but that's how I see it. A sand-box universe is glued together by all the little stories adding to the whole, all the little castles. Tony's work demolishes their worth with his own mega-castle in the middle and we are expected to go along with this.
Eeeh, I'm not even sure right now where I was going with this, whining about it again. got to work on my metaphors. Anyhow, I'm assuming people here are more intelligent than me and get what I'm annoyed about just fine.
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On a personal level, I'm not sure I've achieved making this clear or not, but my primary issue with Tony's work is not the quality of the works themselves, but the fact that they are based in the supposedly sand-box EVE online, and do a good job of pissing all over the box to ruin it and replace it with... well, some grand opera-grade scheme. Maybe that works in most other stories and books, but not in EVE's setting.
I doubt it is/was CCP's intention as they like to promote their sand-box setting, but that's how I see it. A sand-box universe is glued together by all the little stories adding to the whole, all the little castles. Tony's work demolishes their worth with his own mega-castle in the middle and we are expected to go along with this.
Eeeh, I'm not even sure right now where I was going with this, whining about it again. got to work on my metaphors. Anyhow, I'm assuming people here are more intelligent than me and get what I'm annoyed about just fine.
Tony is the one saying that he wants big posters with pictures of Tibus Heth and Jamyl Sarum hanging next to Master Chief. The problem is that Tibus Heth and Jamyl Sarum aren't the stars of the Eve setting. The stars of Eve are Istvaan, Verone, the Mittani, Jade, Ladel, Hardin, Sir Molle...that's what he's forgetting. For me, anyway, good tie-in fiction (what little there is) is always about characters that show the potential of players, not that are basically 800 pages of exposition for metaplot wankery. Metaplot needs some mystery to keep the players interested. Revealing too much of the world behind the curtain is always a dangerous proposition, even if your metaplot is comparatively well written like say, my personal favorites Shadowrun and Heavy Gear. The players' collective imagination is almost always better than what you can come up with (at least to them).
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Tony is the one saying that he wants big posters with pictures of Tibus Heth and Jamyl Sarum hanging next to Master Chief.
...
And my respect for Tony just dropped a bit more.
The reason John-117 is the 'hero' of the Halo series is, he found himself in a key position to influence the events of that universe positively for Humanity's survival in what is essentially an 'opera-grade' plot. A literal galaxy-killing danger and the main character of Halo 1-2-3 was there to help ensure things went the right way. THAT makes a 'hero' in a grand story like that.
Compared to that, Heth and Jamyl are both manipulative, lying false-faced pricks running their respective nations in ways that are detrimental to their neighbors and inciting to wars that kill millions. They are not part of any galaxy-scale plots and supposedly if they die that can and will be replaced by others equally as limited in their powers and hopefully a bit more balanced in mind. You are right, they are NOT main actors or heroes of their settings, matter of fact Heth as an example has done fuck-all to better his nation or his people in ways that were of great benefit to them, others could easily have done better.
If Tony don't realize the extreme differences in these two 'positions' in a setting then I'm honestly not sure what to say. I'm not sure I should be angry or pity him. Or if I should focus my 'WTF were you thinking' reaction towards CCP in general, even.
When/where exactly did he state/write something that stupid anyhow? I've not heard of that.
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...
And my respect for Tony just dropped a bit more.
The reason John-117 is the 'hero' of the Halo series is, he found himself in a key position to influence the events of that universe positively for Humanity's survival in what is essentially an 'opera-grade' plot. A literal galaxy-killing danger and the main character of Halo 1-2-3 was there to help ensure things went the right way. THAT makes a 'hero' in a grand story like that.
Compared to that, Heth and Jamyl are both manipulative, lying false-faced pricks running their respective nations in ways that are detrimental to their neighbors and inciting to wars that kill millions. They are not part of any galaxy-scale plots and supposedly if they die that can and will be replaced by others equally as limited in their powers and hopefully a bit more balanced in mind. You are right, they are NOT main actors or heroes of their settings, matter of fact Heth as an example has done fuck-all to better his nation or his people in ways that were of great benefit to them, others could easily have done better.
If Tony don't realize the extreme differences in these two 'positions' in a setting then I'm honestly not sure what to say. I'm not sure I should be angry or pity him. Or if I should focus my 'WTF were you thinking' reaction towards CCP in general, even.
When/where exactly did he state/write something that stupid anyhow? I've not heard of that.
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3357
Bringing EVE to life through storytelling and world building has been one of my greatest joys. For the past six years, I’ve devoted myself to building this IP through the sheer power of her setting—hands down the most underutilized force in EVE. I walked the floors of conventions dreaming of the day when we might have a 30 foot tall poster of Tibus Heth or Empress Jamyl to compete with the larger-than-life icons of other IP’s like the Master Chief and Commander Sheppard. EVE’s story is so deep and offers so much to science fiction fans that it has every potential to reach those heights. It could take years, decades, or longer. But the fact remains that it’s possible. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know that’s kept me inspired since 2003.
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Dear gods. I'm sorry Tony but if you want large posters about toons from EVE it would be far more realistic in context of the setting and far more helpful in promotion of the game to add posters of well-known long-serving characters who have stuck with and maintained their work for years.
In a single-shard sand-box game singular NPC characters don't make huge posters. Dedicated and well-known players, do. Make posters of the players whose efforts means they deserve and earned it along with short bits of info of who they are and why they deserve it, and you might well have a good recruitment drive.
"Poster; Rodji Blake. Long-serving and renowned Imperial, Rodji has served the Empire of Amarr faithfully for years in the face of daily harassment from the godless non-believers, heretics and traitors alike. Never wavering in his devotion he continues in his endeavors to protect and serve the Empire..." etc etc. Poster depicts Rodji like his player envision him, posing along with his most used/favorite ship and his corporate logo and slogan in the back.
I'd buy one ;) I'd also buy one of dozens of others, but I'd never buy a freaking poster or whatever of Heth or Rodent or whoeverthefuck NPC happen to be around in whatever story. That's where Tony seem to have misunderstood entirely. This is not the Halo or Mass Effect universe. Those are awesome, but so it this one. And this one is very different. He don't seem to realize that.
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Tony is the one saying that he wants big posters with pictures of Tibus Heth and Jamyl Sarum hanging next to Master Chief. The problem is that Tibus Heth and Jamyl Sarum aren't the stars of the Eve setting. The stars of Eve are Istvaan, Verone, the Mittani, Jade, Ladel, Hardin, Sir Molle...that's what he's forgetting. For me, anyway, good tie-in fiction (what little there is) is always about characters that show the potential of players, not that are basically 800 pages of exposition for metaplot wankery. Metaplot needs some mystery to keep the players interested. Revealing too much of the world behind the curtain is always a dangerous proposition, even if your metaplot is comparatively well written like say, my personal favorites Shadowrun and Heavy Gear. The players' collective imagination is almost always better than what you can come up with (at least to them).
While I agree that players are and should be the real stars of EVE, I'm not sure if it's a good idea for the game company to promote selected player characters. People tend to react to these things in both predictable and unpredictable ways.
Having a single individual in full control of a freaking galactic empire smells a bit like the space feudalism trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FeudalFuture). It simplifies things, debilitates politics and makes a nation more human and understandable - who wants to live in a New Eden like that?
In my imaginary poster, I'd portray more than a single individual, along with the coat of arms or other hallmarks of each empire, perhaps a bit like here
(http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/scanimation2.gif)
Go Guristas!
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg31/scaled.php?server=31&filename=louisxivandhisheirs.jpg&res=medium)
Go Heirs!
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I agree that promoting specific players isn't a good idea either, mostly for the reason that it puts you in danger of having people take their words and actions as representative of your company/game, which is dangerous (especially when you have folks like the Mittani out there, who realize the power that entails and enjoy fucking with it). To come extent, CCP does already promote players and player personalities as what sells the game, which is why the craziness of last summer was probably a lot more effective than it would be for say, WoW (aside from the smaller number of players in Eve meaning it's easier for a protest to gain critical mass).
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/me contemplates the existence of plush graelyn dolls in RL ...
:eek:
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Tony is the one saying that he wants big posters with pictures of Tibus Heth and Jamyl Sarum hanging next to Master Chief. The problem is that Tibus Heth and Jamyl Sarum aren't the stars of the Eve setting. The stars of Eve are Istvaan, Verone, the Mittani, Jade, Ladel, Hardin, Sir Molle...that's what he's forgetting. For me, anyway, good tie-in fiction (what little there is) is always about characters that show the potential of players, not that are basically 800 pages of exposition for metaplot wankery. Metaplot needs some mystery to keep the players interested. Revealing too much of the world behind the curtain is always a dangerous proposition, even if your metaplot is comparatively well written like say, my personal favorites Shadowrun and Heavy Gear. The players' collective imagination is almost always better than what you can come up with (at least to them).
Svet, as usual, nails it right on the head. The reason, say, the Black Mountain series is vastly superior to the novels is that Black Mountain is just about some dudes. Sure, they're involved in shady backstage dealings with "the fate of the cluster" or whatever on the line, but they're still just dudes. They don't have psychic powers, they can't kick billions out of school with a snap of their fingers, they aren't fighting ancient shadow wars. They're just these people who happen to get caught up in shit and don't attempt to overshadow the rest of the universe with their dangling boobs.
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They're just these people who happen to get caught up in shit and don't attempt to overshadow the rest of the universe with their dangling boobs.
Those are some pretty big dangling boobs if they're casting a shadow over the universe... :eek:
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They're just these people who happen to get caught up in shit and don't attempt to overshadow the rest of the universe with their dangling boobs.
Those are some pretty big dangling boobs if they're casting a shadow over the universe... :eek:
It's described as "ample" afterall...
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They're just these people who happen to get caught up in shit and don't attempt to overshadow the rest of the universe with their dangling boobs.
Those are some pretty big dangling boobs if they're casting a shadow over the universe... :eek:
It's described as "ample" afterall...
Even in these dark times, Niraia can still find work. >.>
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Svet, as usual, nails it right on the head. The reason, say, the Black Mountain series is vastly superior to the novels is that Black Mountain is just about some dudes. Sure, they're involved in shady backstage dealings with "the fate of the cluster" or whatever on the line, but they're still just dudes. They don't have psychic powers, they can't kick billions out of school with a snap of their fingers, they aren't fighting ancient shadow wars. They're just these people who happen to get caught up in shit and don't attempt to overshadow the rest of the universe with their dangling boobs.
My view:
Tony either ignored (or, also likely, was not aware of) many concepts of "good" literature in order to tell an "epic" sci-fi story. This does not seem to be done intentionally; Theodicy and Ruthless have some of the same problems, but TEA and T1 take things to a new level. The same can be said about some of the post-"Abraxas Bi-Weekly Chronicles" fiction tied to the Sleeper storyline. It's as if all of the feedback Tony and the Fiction department were getting in regards to these novels was given to them by their best friends, with no regard to actually improving quality. This may also be a result of feedback from the community. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but much of what I've seen of Tony's response to community input seems defensive. When someone gets defensive, they tend to retreat into that little corner they've made, and fortify their position. In this case, it manifested as explaining (at great length) how everything ties together.
In a fiction piece, that ends up becoming pages of exposition. My guess is that the defensiveness started before The Empyrean Age; Ruthless is a decent piece of fiction. Theodicy is... well, it's the start of the "ancient conspiracy" storyline. Empyrean Age really goes into the exposition, and retreating into previous works for safety. Threads started in Ruthless and Theodicy became heavily weaved into TEA. This culminates in Templar One; Grious, that one random pilot from Ruthless (who also happens to be a major NPC), the Retford crew...
It's a "me against the world" novel, through and through. There are even shades of characters of players who supported the "Enheduanni" bits in Theodicy and Jamyl's "voice" woven in there. Add in the fact that the chronicles dealing with the Sleepers can be seen as laying the foundation for everything in T1, it all points to both a defensive view of the "righteousness" of Tony's own view of EVE and a supporting atmosphere at CCP.
That's just my feel of the situation though. I love Tony's novels as nice, easy to read pulp science fiction. I probably won't read any more EVE novels by him though, simply for the fact that the setting (and community reaction) seem to be burying his writing potential. I also enjoyed the canon reveals, even though nothing was really all that surprising. It did help to solidify my view on the Sleeper story, and it did help to solidify my goals in EVE for the long term (though for the short term, I'm kind of stumped as to what to do).
PS: I've been doing a lot of soul searching and re-evaluating of pretty much everything EVE related.
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The base concepts behind DUST514 are much better suited to a horror story.
Your protagonist could be a faithfull Soldier of God and product of the human endurance program. The plot tracks him or her through training, augmentation and then the horrified realisation that, for them, there is no end to the fighting and killing. Possibly this might be the core of a motive to betray the secrets involved to the other empires.
At no point would you have to involve any of the government leaders, and the basis of the tech could be made as clear or as vague as desired.
Hell, even a Rogue Trooper retread would have been better.
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The base concepts behind DUST514 are much better suited to a horror story.
Your protagonist could be a faithfull Soldier of God and product of the human endurance program. The plot tracks him or her through training, augmentation and then the horrified realisation that, for them, there is no end to the fighting and killing. Possibly this might be the core of a motive to betray the secrets involved to the other empires.
At no point would you have to involve any of the government leaders, and the basis of the tech could be made as clear or as vague as desired.
Hell, even a Rogue Trooper retread would have been better.
Oh god, this. I hope CCP doesn't puss out, I hope they add civilians to Dust. I mean, the warzone is cities and factories that should be teeming with citizens and workers. Blapping civvies should obviously incur some kind of penalty, like alerting local police. This would go a long way toward addressing the whole "every setting is an FPS level" feel of Dust as it's been seen in recent videos.
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Thanks for all the analysis above. Just finished reading it myself, so was holding off reading this thread. As with Emp Age most of this must have happened in some downtime, however:
- FW does not change sovereignity (That would be quite cool)
- Amamake has never been occupied by Amarr (that I can see anyway, if there was a flip then perhaps the story took place on that day)
- Amarr Navy entered Amamake through the Osoggur gate - ie from Republic hisec!
- Had to have been downtime as if PL were online those faction caps would have been hot dropped
- PS: Faction Navies need to take lessons in how to use capitals from PL, that titan lasted far too long.
Maybe the story happened on Sisi?
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- Had to have been downtime as if PL were online those faction caps would have been hot dropped
[...]
Maybe the story happened on Sisi?
Had to smile at the comments above, especially the ones I've quoted.
I'm having a disjunction here, though: my strand of roleplay holds that what is perceptible in space and the markets is "real". Conversely, I'm (very) happy with people extending the lore consistently with what's already known, but I get antsy about people declaring happenings which should have been perceptible. Even if they're the game narrators. The thing they're telling me when they do that is that I'm living in a parallel universe which doesn't interact with their universe.
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someone wrote something about "30ft tall posters of Jamyl Sarum, like the ones you get of Master chief or Cmdr. Shepard"
but, master chief and cmdr shepard, are the player characters. Jamyl is an npc, their story is not that of the player.
I don't understand.
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someone wrote something about "30ft tall posters of Jamyl Sarum, like the ones you get of Master chief or Cmdr. Shepard"
but, master chief and cmdr shepard, are the player characters. Jamyl is an npc, their story is not that of the player.
I don't understand.
That is exactly the point I made. :)
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That is exactly the point I made. :)
It is. Svetlana summed it up nicely (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3036.msg46269#msg46269).
(I've been wishing you were around so I could pick your brains about Caldari matters as they ought to be, Svetlana.)
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That is exactly the point I made. :)
It is. Svetlana summed it up nicely (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3036.msg46269#msg46269).
(I've been wishing you were around so I could pick your brains about Caldari matters as they ought to be, Svetlana.)
Yeah, I've not been in game for ages...I poke around on Caldari threads here though out of some sort of desperate hope things aren't as bad as I think. :) I'm happy to discuss it but I don't really have much investment in the storylines for Eve anymore. :/
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Ok, I finished Templar One a couple of months back, and I've been slowly processing it it the back of my mind.
First off, I think it's much better written than TEA or Theodicy. It really seems like TonyG learned a lot from what went wrong with TEA. The paragraphs do not make me gag, or want to throw my kindle across the room. The story is still not attractive though.
At least the Elders have fucked off.
It was not immediately apparent to me when the scenes in the book were supposed to happen. I thought at first that they had yet to happen, but with the DUST 514 beta being called "Mordu's trials" and the news articles about soldiers disappearing from the front lines (off to get fitted for the DUST equipment, I infer) it seems it happened in the past.
Do we know that?
Ishukone is practically at war with Heth. Have we seen any news articles to that effect? I know that when I was involved in discusions in EM about I-RED being enemies or friends, that sort of information would have been influential, but I'd never heard of it IC. (This is one of the reasons I assumed it had yet to happen).
A drake takes out a dreadnought because the dreadnought needs to fly at stupid height in order to bombard planet. Has TonyG even played the game?
Triggering phantom pain in someone can cause med-bots to disect them in the name of helping them, who'd have thought?
Templar Nine fights his way clear alongside Templar one, Someone says on the radio that they'll spare his life if he tops Templar One, and then to be helpful he shoots himself in the head, WTF?
the universe they are writing about one is not one that I am interested in much at all anymore. Certainly not one that I feel passionate enough about to want to devote a good chunk of time playing in and writing about.
Re-reading the thread before commenting on Templar One, and this sentence reached out and touched me.
As pathetic as it may be, Me too!
There's a point at which game worlds stop being places I want to explore. Eve has reached that point for me. Glorantha did it by trying to own the copyright on everything I wrote about the world, Eve has done it by changing the world until there is no role I can play in it that is currently attractive to me.
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There's a point at which game worlds stop being places I want to explore. Eve has reached that point for me.
Bother. :(
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The PF reveals are interesting.
There are two things about TonyG that make me reluctant to read T1. First, there's his taste for melodrama. Second, there's his shoddy approach to canon.
Vendrin made the argument that TonyG's work is PF, so suck it up and accept it. I'd be more sympathetic to that point of view if TonyG's own work didn't regularly contradict the same canon he's contributing to.
Essentially, where TonyG is in agreement with other canon, I'll buy that he's telling it like it is. Where TonyG contradicts other canon, I'll presume the other canon is correct. Where TonyG is beyond other canon, I'll buy that he's telling it like it is until someone else contradicts him, at which point I'll go with the somebody else.
Now if only I could bring myself to actually read this stuff.
Also, if only somebody would put Tibus Heth out of our misery. He's served his purpose, dammit, and unlike every one of the other annoyingly prima donna NPCs, he's a historical and cultural anomally. There's not a single faction (no, not even the Patriots, at least as of the faction update that accompanied TEA) that's actually happy to have him leading the State. He's an obvious assassination target, ideally as an apparent martyr in the struggle against the Gallente.
Have a bunch of Gallentean-speaking guys with Gallentean black ops gear vaporize his head with a Roden Armaments-made particle blaster. Bury the rest of him with the highest honors, and have the CEP officially proclaim that because Tibus Heth was truly one of a kind and no one else can be said to be worthy of such honor, the position of Dictator shall remain forever his and his alone (and consequently vacant).
Get back to business.
Bring on the Lai Dai false flag op! Let's get on with it, already!
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I'd say that actually the only faction that didn't get a deus ex machina type random leader/set of oligarchs/whatever well outside of historical and cultural bounds was the Gallente.
As far as templar one, if it really is better written than EA, I might have to give it a shot. I literally could not stand Tony G's writing for long enough to get more than about a tenth through EA. On the other hand, I'm tempted to pretend Tony G never happened and just hope for better treatment of the PF in the future.
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Well-- the Empress is an empress, even if she's kinda weird.
Shakor is a long-standing tribalist figure and rival to the former president. Is there something odd going on there outside the Elders?
Tibus Heth is the Dictator of a culture that doesn't customarily "do" individual leaders with sweeping authority over everybody, at least not in the last century or three.
The first is part of the system (anomalous person, not anomalous position). The second was just waiting to happen. The third is a populist rebel playing overlord to a bunch of elitist corporate elites who hate the very idea of a dictator and are all, as far as I can gather, grinding their teeth down to nubs as they try to be patient when what they really want is to do away with him. If he can survive in that context, he really is a paragon-- and the PF around him to date that I'm aware of hasn't portrayed him as remotely superhuman.
The Caldari are quite capable of being aggressive and militaristic on their own without the help of an autocratic Milosevic-wannabe, and I would dearly appreciate it if CCP would let them. The CEP is less "personal" about it all than Heth is, but that's the Caldari all over, no?
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Yeah, I see your point. I think the Elders were pretty out of left field, though. As far as the empress, well, it is implied that one of the reasons that the Amarr have some of the best cybernetics is that they put a lot of research into it to extend the lives of emperors, because the have such a deep aversion to cloning them - then suddenly, oops, nope, nevermind, it's fine. (Jamyl was publicly killed at the succession trials, after all.)
Heth probably is, though, in terms of overall not making sense in the context of the culture involved the worst offender. He has what I think is the most ridiculous of the 'stories' about coming to power, etc. Basically EA is when I found myself drifting away from a previously intense interest in Eve's backstory, and why I have something of an aversion for the idea of buying T1.
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Ah, yes. The Clone Empress.
That's one I actually think they set up pretty well. Okay, sure, she's back from the dead in a world where the only way people come back from the dead is via cloning. Occam's Razor, she's a clone.
... That's if anybody dares to publicly apply Occam's Razor.
We're talking about a very, very religious society, one that believes in miracles and basically looks on battleships as cathedrals and lasers as the light twinkling through stained glass windows. Combat against the heathen is a sacred act. This society, riven with internal strife and discord, ruled over by a functional usurper (a certain dead Sani, ah, Chamberlain, was it?), finds itself under siege by a terrifyingly well-armed and well-prepared enemy, one capable of posing an existential threat to the Empire. (That may not be the reality, but considering the havoc the Elders wreaked, you can see how panic would start to spread.)
At the climactic moment of the conflict, a vision of godly power: a battleship piloted by a long-dead Imperial Heir swoops onto the battlefield and crushes the foes of God and empire in a single, swift stroke.
"Well, that's awfully convenient," say the skeptics.
"Silence, blasphemer!" pant the immensely relieved faithful. "This is an angel from God, sent to our rescue! Didn't you notice she just saved our bacon?"
"Still mighty convenient," mutter the skeptics, but bite their tongues lest they find them cut off-- and, in any case, the idea that somebody might have set the Elders up for Jamyl to blow up comes off horribly conspiracy-theory-ish.
So, Occam's Razor applied with a heaping helping of faith and general gratitude at not being overrun by barbarians: it's a miracle! God has raised Jamyl Sarum, granting her flesh once more, and armed her with divine weapons! You don't get more "Godflesh" -ish than flesh literally given you by God.
At a certain point, that's the simpler answer.
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Yanno, if everyone wanted to make a gentlemans agreement that TonyG never happened, wouldnt break my heart none.
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Yanno, if everyone wanted to make a gentlemans agreement that TonyG never happened, wouldnt break my heart none.
I thought this was simply done.
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Yanno, if everyone wanted to make a gentlemans agreement that TonyG never happened, wouldnt break my heart none.
I thought this was simply done.
Pretty much this, its an un-written rule you just ignore TonyG in a very Gentlemans agreement way... at least thats what I have seen from pretty much everyone I know
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This seems to be the general consensus. And as much as a huge part of me wants to read them, I have opted to simply leave these books alone to easier pretend they do not exist should I find I dislike them.
Sad, really :(
/me just made his first and probably last post in a Tony G topic
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With the exception of what's been in the IC news reports?
... Yeah, I'm pretty much good with treating the TonyG books as being to Eve what Tom Clancy novels are to RL.
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The problem with ignoring TonyG is the fact that the game world conforms to his idiotic whim.
Ignore the world, become insane in the eyes of your peers.
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The problem with ignoring TonyG is the fact that the game world conforms to his idiotic whim.
Ignore the world, become insane in the eyes of your peers.
Not in my eyes.
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The problem with ignoring TonyG is the fact that the game world conforms to his idiotic whim.
Ignore the world, become insane in the eyes of your peers.
Actually, it's easier to come across sane by ignoring TonyG than the opposite. TonyG wrote his novels about things that go on behind the scenes of the Eve universe. The typical capsuleer should know little to nothing about them beyond what makes it into the news.
Failing to ignore TonyG for purposes of your regular RP will make you look like a crazed conspiracy theorist. Aria's been known to indulge in the occasional far-fetched round of speculation, herself, but Aria has no way of knowing the "truth" and I like my theories better anyway.
Read and embrace the news and chronicles. Ignore TonyG. It all comes out nice.
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The problem is that his whims have shaped New Eden.
The very real leaders of the factions are his making.
The Faction Warfare is there by his reasoning.
Even though his writing is something that describes what happens behind the scenes it does not change the fact that none of the leaders that were put in place in the cluster by his stories make sense when you look at the way New Eden was portrayed before him.
He did not just put unbelievable characters at the helm of all the empires.
He rewrote the rules that ran New Eden.
Before TonyG you could take the PF at face value and use it as a source to give you guidelines on logical patterns that would compose a fictional reality that would follow laws of causality.
Giving the roleplayers a possibility to spend hours upon hours on speculating on how different cultures evolved into what they were and what kind of different branches of social evolution within those cultures could thrive without being decimated by the dominant one.
Before the laws of causality were broken by TonyG you could use common sense and current scientific development as basis of exploring a living breathing New Eden with your imagination and you could share it with others without magical handwaving or social cliques to justify your views.
Even before TonyG players spent ages waiting for glacial movements by the CCPs storyline folk to show that New Eden was alive outside of the day to day life of a capsuleer, but you could safely hypothesize and extrapolate.
The world was malleable within a frame, it was truly a sandbox as a game and as a world.
When the laws of causality were turned into a deus ex machina that could be broken at a whim so that the Grand Story of New Eden could be told as a Space Opera That It Was Supposed To Be, it all fell apart.
Now there is nothing to build from, because everything can be destroyed at the drop of a hat from someone working for CCP.
The Amarrians can suddenly start wearing Hot Pink speedos because some cackling storyline boss decides its so.
The Gallente can start eating babies, just because it is so.
The Caldari can secretly all be cyborgs.
The Minmatari can be nanite enhanced pornstars that club enemy ships to death with their phalluses.
It's just Meh.
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Thank you Lallara. Exactly how I have felt but haven't had the time to put into words.
Having stories that are 'out-there' in New Eden need to be the exception, not the norm. I, as an Amarr RP'er, am very unhappy with having a [spoiler]secret AI meglomaniac clone zombie that wants to kill all of humanity to bring peace to the cluster[/spoiler] for my Empress. If Aldrith knew the 'truth' according to Tony G, or for that the entire Empire, instant civil war. Aldrith might be ignorant IC, but I'm not. It ends up feeling like the entire fictional civilization I have dedicated my character to protecting is hollow and pointless.
All I am saying is that I signed up for a civilization controled by theocracy, medieval-esque power politics and principle, not the alternitive offered by a maverick writer. It feels forced, not just on to me, but in general. It's just not authentic in any way; everything with Tony G seems like it was done for the lol's and not because he takes the universe as a realistic setting that has people playing in it. It's a cheesy b-grade sci-fi movie script now, which makes us all cheesy b-grade actors.
Bleh.
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You forgot space-lesbian, Ald.
She's one of those too.
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ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME.
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It's just Meh.
Nah.
Because this:
Giving the roleplayers a possibility to spend hours upon hours on speculating on how different cultures evolved into what they were and what kind of different branches of social evolution within those cultures could thrive without being decimated by the dominant one.
...you could use common sense and current scientific development as basis of exploring a living breathing New Eden with your imagination and you could share it with others without magical handwaving or social cliques to justify your views.
still happens. Reference: these forums.
Like PvP, nothing in EVE in consensual, including RP and the storyline. Doesn't mean you can't shoot back. And it certainly doesn't mean the setting has less potential because of one author's mangled validations for new game mechanics like faction warfare and DUST. The execution of the TEA storyline advancement through downtime events beyond all player control was amateurish. The book was scarcely any better. I haven't read T1 and I won't, but I have no expectations for its greatness. And yet neither book has destroyed the setting. They've simply added new elements to it.
It's a big cluster. In some parts of it, I can accept that absurd things happen from time to time... things like secret Minmatar fleets appearing from nowhere to deck CONCORD and then invade the Empire. And there are others like zombie empresses and whatever. Those things haven't, however, destroyed all the smaller-scale wonders that were already there nor need they threaten those new ones that are born every day from player imaginations and interactions. Saying that TonyG ruined everything in New Eden makes about as much sense as saying George W. Bush ruined everything on Earth. He was stupid. A cartoon. He made plenty of mistakes and we still have to deal with some of them, but life goes on and there is still a lot of cool shit in the world to enjoy and cool people to enjoy it with.
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It's a big cluster. In some parts of it, I can accept that absurd things happen from time to time... things like secret Minmatar fleets appearing from nowhere to deck CONCORD and then invade the Empire. And there are others like zombie empresses and whatever. Those things haven't, however, destroyed all the smaller-scale wonders that were already there nor need they threaten those new ones that are born every day from player imaginations and interactions. Saying that TonyG ruined everything in New Eden makes about as much sense as saying George W. Bush ruined everything on Earth. He was stupid. A cartoon. He made plenty of mistakes and we still have to deal with some of them, but life goes on and there is still a lot of cool shit in the world to enjoy and cool people to enjoy it with.
And yet the way I hear it the players were once upon a time involved in the greater storyline. Had I been around during the time of Artico's trial I'd have wept for the epicness. Now what do we RP'ers have to look forward to? Chit-chat in the Summit and space lesbian drama while zombie Empress does her thing, as much as my character might want to help or hinder her. Hoo-f'in-ray, I am a powerless small fish next to this super-weapon wielding sex toy.
How about a live event where some people have to go get the super weapon for her? Or an arc where we might possibly uncover the truth about her? If we're not going to be involved in big world-shifting events and personalities we might as well not pay attention to them, like most players do. I haven't read a single one of the EVE books simply for the reason I don't want to know.
We as RP'ers have a special relationship with the PF that other players do not have. A huge chunk of our gaming experience is based in it, and I do not like it when that chunk is turned completely on its head. To me it's as though CCP suddenly made Amarr ships missle specialized. It's just... wat.
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Thank you Lallara. Exactly how I have felt but haven't had the time to put into words.
Having stories that are 'out-there' in New Eden need to be the exception, not the norm. I, as an Amarr RP'er, am very unhappy with having a [spoiler]secret AI meglomaniac clone zombie that wants to kill all of humanity to bring peace to the cluster[/spoiler] for my Empress. If Aldrith knew the 'truth' according to Tony G, or for that the entire Empire, instant civil war. Aldrith might be ignorant IC, but I'm not. It ends up feeling like the entire fictional civilization I have dedicated my character to protecting is hollow and pointless.
All I am saying is that I signed up for a civilization controled by theocracy, medieval-esque power politics and principle, not the alternitive offered by a maverick writer. It feels forced, not just on to me, but in general. It's just not authentic in any way; everything with Tony G seems like it was done for the lol's and not because he takes the universe as a realistic setting that has people playing in it. It's a cheesy b-grade sci-fi movie script now, which makes us all cheesy b-grade actors.
Bleh.
Welcome to how the rest of the cluster feels about Tony's touch on whatever empire they are part of.
I don't even want to begin with how I feel about the fuck-ups on the Fed, and I'm also rather unhappy about the Amarr. TG clearly hates religion and had no compunctions against pissing all over the Amarr to point that out.
In short, until there are direct examples of his work in-game, or in the news or whatever way I can see and touch in-character, none of his BS happened. None. There were NO news about Pike's landing. Never happened, etc.
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In short, until there are direct examples of his work in-game, or in the news or whatever way I can see and touch in-character, none of his BS happened. None. There were NO news about Pike's landing. Never happened, etc.
I wasn't sure about that, which is why I asked. So nobody knows (in character) that Ishukone is in a shooting fight with Heth yet?
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We as RP'ers have a special relationship with the PF that other players do not have. A huge chunk of our gaming experience is based in it, and I do not like it when that chunk is turned completely on its head. To me it's as though CCP suddenly made Amarr ships missle specialized. It's just... wat.
I find the setting of New Eden uniquely detailed and appreciate it as a somewhat dystopian sci-fi world devoid of ridged foreheads and blue skins. In truth, however, the setting could be any place or any time if the narrative were good enough. I think I enjoy RP primarily for the stories that develop from conflicts between player characters as a result of their personalities and choices. I value this part of RP much more than the in-character posing I have to do in order to integrate any particular character within the backdrop of EVE PF. In that way, maybe I don't think there is a special relationship between myself as an RPer and the PF, as you do.
Remember that neither the major TEA/T1 characters like the Empress nor any character of epic story arc-shaping influence has ever been controlled by a player. The elections and ascensions and smaller events played out in the early days depended on community involvement, just as the recent incursions did. For me, PF provides the stage and the props. The world my mind plays in thrives on the actors and the lines and the stage direction at levels at least a few tiers below the grand council chambers and situation rooms of the empires with all their necessary gravitas and cookery of :important events:.
How about a live event where some people have to go get the super weapon for her? Or an arc where we might possibly uncover the truth about her? If we're not going to be involved in big world-shifting events and personalities we might as well not pay attention to them, like most players do.
My point is that I don't need to fly in a fleet on the way to recover Item X to stop Enemy Y in order to save Planet Z because CCP Actor A said so in local chat in order to come away from RP experiences feeling entertained and fulfilled. It could be fun, certainly, and I would love to do something like that more often, but I don't find it necessary to enjoy the setting or the game. The fact that such things do not happen very often at all does not diminish my enjoyment.
Very few people in real life will ever find themselves personally involved in world-shaping events in such a way that their own actions affect the outcome. EVE, like many escapisms, offers that experience, but it does so rarely. Often the terms of such engagements involve player alliances and nullsec politics rather than the next evolution in PF events. Just like non-RPing players who dream of the day when they might play out their fantasies of making choices of epic and lasting consequence (such as those described in the "Causality" video (http://youtu.be/uGplrpWvz0I)), we RPers dream of the day when we will shape the PF in such a way.
Maybe someday you'll get that chance. The vast majority of players won't. It is instead the smaller choices of the second, the minute, the hour, and the day, that we have to work with. I don't think they have any less potential to be thrilling or meaningful or simply worth the time just because of their scale. Forget about the zombie cyborg empress and her idiotic plans. She is a weak character built on a shallow premise: shock value and cartoonish conspiracy. She and everything else like her in the PF, all the over-the-top crap of bloated importance TonyG gave us, is there for one purpose: they are excuses. Spit on someone, draw swords, and conduct :drama:. Or smile instead. But please, for the love of the game, don't tie your happiness to TonyG's pen or CCP's schizophrenia.
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But please, for the love of the game, don't tie your happiness to TonyG's pen or CCP's schizophrenia.
Yes, it saddens me to see people losing their EVE RP fire because of the books. They're about 0.01% of the entire game world.
For example, after 4 years of fighting as a militia capsuleer, Seri has come to realize that the current war is perpetual because of the merchants-of-death concept, how the capsuleer economy functions, or whatever. While he doesn't doubt senior Caldari would love to destroy/conquer the Federation (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Dark_End_of_Space_%28Chronicle%29), he also realizes that fighting against that will just serve some ebil plutocrats.
Most of the time I see characters decide to go pirate, but to me that makes as much sense as a US soldier quitting the Army to go join some Somalians in the Indian ocean, rather than just settling down in some peaceful state for another life. I don't see why it has to be SERVE YOUR EMPIRE OR ELSE. Okay, so it's a bit easier to be a Gallentean without being a Feddy, but there's more to the empires than their leaders or the stories in the books.
So, I've decided Seriphyn can still be a Federation officer while doing other things that aren't involved in the main storyline. I worldbuild, as I'm currently doing on the IGS, and so can other people. I dunno. Just because we think that Congress are a bunch of retards, doesn't mean we'll all stop living in the United States. Stop pinning your characters to these big NPCs. Make your characters organic creations of the universe. Seriphyn is a man, father, and soldier. That's his essence. He just happened to be born in the Gallente Federation.
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Largely "What Ken said" about roleplay.
I'd like to know how things are going with the Tribal Council and some other plot lines that were left hanging in 2009, but that's a matter for a handful of news items, not live events.
I'm slightly allergic to CCP-led live events. I realise there are others who like them, but I'm keen to make the point to CCP that having CCP support RP in EVE doesn't mean it should burn out its staff dealing directly with a few handfuls of us. It can have an impact with a much more reasonable cost/benefit ratio by progressing things that we can then, ourselves, turn into actions and debates.
In particular, it'd be nice to unblock some things. As Ulf has intimated already the Ishukone plot in Templar One is going to be quite significant... when it happens. I'm guessing the reveals for things like that are on hold until DUST is released, but with the current beta supposedly cast as Mordu's trials--presumably happening after the events of Templar One--it's a messy business for the timeline. Things like that block or drain energy and enthusiasm. I can see how CCP would end up there. I'd appreciate a bit of time to stitch something together so we know which bits of what will surely become public knowledge are actually in the public arena at any given time.
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Most of the time I see characters decide to go pirate, but to me that makes as much sense as a US soldier quitting the Army to go join some Somalians in the Indian ocean, rather than just settling down in some peaceful state for another life.
I do agree with your larger overall point here, however, you're not too far off the mark. Mercenary outfits (who now go by the innocuous title "Private Security Contractors") have been backing regimes in Africa and Central Asia for decades. Many of them are run by former high-ranking officers or civilian administrators and filled with veteran soldiers getting paid 5-20 times what they made in their respective militaries. While "piracy" might not quite be the right word for it, there's certainly a lot of cases where their activities contribute to human suffering.
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Ken, for better or worse the Emperor/Empress defines the Empire.
That is how the Amarrian religion works.
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Ken, for better or worse the Emperor/Empress defines the Empire.
That is how the Amarrian religion works.
Please tell me you don't really think my statements were born out of ignorance of that fact.
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Ken, for better or worse the Emperor/Empress defines the Empire.
That is how the Amarrian religion works.
It should be noted that the majority of capsuleers and indeed the majority of citizens in the Empire are not going to be privy to the Empress' every day dealings and drug-induced lesbian orgies. Given that anyone who attempts to bring such things to light will likely be silenced (a certain Paladin, for instance or any of the handmaidens involved).
Let's say your capsuleer did catch wind of it, or it becomes public knowledge somehow, use it is an opportunity!
"Behold, denizens of the Empire! Witness how the temptations of sin can affect even the mightiest among us! Heed the words of the Scriptures:
"The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited.
Be Careful. Pure Thought is the Instigator of Sin.
Be Watchful. Free Thought is the Begetter of Disorder.
Be Respectful. Uniform Thought is the Way of Life.
The Mercy of our Emperor is Limitless. His Rule is Benign and Righteous. His Love is Perpetual."
- The Scriptures, Book I, The Code of Demeanor
See now how our Empress has fallen! See how she was placed into this position in spite of our religious precepts! See how her return, while it may have once been a boon of God, has been allowed to pervert and decay the righteousness of our Empire! It is time, brother and sisters, it is time to right the wrongs, rectify injustices and purge these sins from our Holy Empire!"
You could even go on about how the recent troubles in the warzone and the difficulties plaguing the Empire are a direct judgment from God on the unrighteousness of the Empire because of the Empress' hidden sins and make a giant campaign about how such corruption must be rife in other higher circles of the Imperial Hierarchy and so on, so forth. Turn the Empress into the fall girl for the Empire's recent troubles, etcetera.
That's not to say it isn't frustrating that this kind of stuff gets written and accepted by CCP and there's nothing wrong with saying, "Well, until I see evidence of it in game or news articles or whatever, then it simply didn't happen." But be thinking about the great ways you can jump on this kind of conspiracy and twist it into fun RP angles and conflict instead of letting it defeat you.
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So I'd avoided this thread until I could read first TEA and then this. And so when my computer broke and I bought a shiny Kindle Fire to kill time with, those were among my first two purchases. Reading them for the first time back to back was probably the best way to do it. After seeing first-hand the brutality (and occasional babality) inflicted on EVE canon and the English language in TEA, T1 was...really not that bad. It did a lot of good work walking back the rage-inducing absurdities of the former:
- Jamyl isn't psychic.
- The Broker's apparently stopped molesting the laws of causality (unless he just took over Sansha's brain)
- The Elders too, for that matter, although of course the sort of things they'd be machinating don't get much screen time.
- The Enheduanni aren't actually the masters of the universe, just nursing home attendants who ended up with delusions of grandeur from too many video games. And not even playing themselves, just watching their charges play them.
- FW is a real war, with real consequences that prompt action from the major players involved in it. (Admittedly, much of this work had already been done.)
- Player capsuleers actually seem to exist and have some effect in the world.
I think the most important reason this is more successful than its predecessor is that TEA was a book where everything went according to Plan, until someone else's Plan required it to fail. In T1, everyone's plan failed to some degree or another. From the snowball of bad choices that was the attempt on Heth's life to CONCORD's inability to destroy a single prototype to the Other being unable to keep Jamyl Sarum from violently ending the debacle that the Templar program turned out to be for the Amarr Empire. And they didn't just catastrophically fail either. There were partial successes, followed by setbacks and reversals that weren't entirely predictable, even knowing that the end result is the status quo of EVE Online today.
Of course, the gender politics still range from sketchy to deplorable, and it adds very little in the way of structure, texture, or even fluff to RP within the game we know, and it sure would be nice if there were less reliance on threats of bodily harm to family members as a dramatic motivator...
Other assorted comments:
THANATOS is cool, because an active CONCORD is so much more interesting than one that sits around waiting to get blowed up by plot.
Did anyone else notice the voice warning Lt. Col. Linden away from Myoklar was callsign Hawkeye...just like Cpt. Lears in the Moros?
What happened to Mordu the Younger? (Or Téa for that matter. The rest of the damn Retford crew showed up, why not her?)
Speaking of Mordu, I want to commission his haberdasher.
And give Mack a hug. Poor guy.
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(Or Téa for that matter. The rest of the damn Retford crew showed up, why not her?)
In the kitchen, making everyone a sandwich obviously (hurrhurr edgy TonyG joke)
I agree though that it was an enjoyable read, despite the acute PF errors (all Mannar on Seyllin I wot). My primary issue was more in personal taste, with how everyone spoke like Hollywood actors and a lot of VERY trivial things were Americanized. The disposition, too. All too Hollywood/Michael Bay. They seemed virtually identical to one another in how they spoke and carried themselves, except that Jamaican Mannar I BE A FOREIGNER MON character. Why he was the only one that sounded "foreign" is beyond me.
But that's just my own taste (I particularly emphasize stuff like body language in my RP for example) so not gonna force that on anyone.
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Spoiler request: what's THANATOS?
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Spoiler request: what's THANATOS?
From memory, because I don't have my copy with me:
[Spoiler]
A sub-unit of CONCORD that's busy keeping an eye on things and trying to make sure that everything proceeds as it should, regardless of the short-sighted politics of the various polities, and particularly the Pod Pilots. Like CONCORD spies and secret police, only telling themselves they're doing it for the good of the cluster, instead of personal power. Of course, without personal power, how can you stop things going to hell?
They dropped an operative into the mess in Amamake in a drop-ship that was invisible to everything except visible spectrum, who proceeded to wander around kicking the arse of anything it ran into, while at the same time having little actual effect on things.
Of course, my memory might be faulty.
[/spoiler]
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Spoiler request: what's THANATOS?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThanatosGambit
It... it uh, makes more sense if you read the particular passage...
:bash:
Also: She's definitely Russian, possibly a Khanid. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_Archer)
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Also, since it's the sort of thing that keeps coming up about slavery:
[spoiler]
"The obvious implication was that the Elders were winding down their rescue missions in the Amarr Empire. There were still millions of Minmatar slaves in their service, with dozens more added every day as the two empires fought an ugly war of attrition across dozens of colonies in the losec worlds."
I may have got this out of context, since my reading of EVE novels typically involves some blend of jet lag, sleep deprivation and illness, but I don't think I did.
Part of me wants to use this in all sorts of contradictory ways. There's slave-taking in faction war, despite supposed Empire law about that?! It's only dozens a day?! Other parts of me think that the numbers just don't add up and are being used rhetorically, especially only "millions" of Minmatar slaves in the service of the Amarr Empire when we're still told that nearly a third of all Minmatar, the most numerous race of New Eden, are enslaved within the huge Amarr Empire (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Minmatar#History).
But it's one of the passages I think about when deciding how cynically to treat FW.
[/spoiler]
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Also, since it's the sort of thing that keeps coming up about slavery:
[spoiler]
"The obvious implication was that the Elders were winding down their rescue missions in the Amarr Empire. There were still millions of Minmatar slaves in their service, with dozens more added every day as the two empires fought an ugly war of attrition across dozens of colonies in the losec worlds."
I may have got this out of context, since my reading of EVE novels typically involves some blend of jet lag, sleep deprivation and illness, but I don't think I did.
Part of me wants to use this in all sorts of contradictory ways. There's slave-taking in faction war, despite supposed Empire law about that?! It's only dozens a day?! Other parts of me think that the numbers just don't add up and are being used rhetorically, especially only "millions" of Minmatar slaves in the service of the Amarr Empire when we're still told that nearly a third of all Minmatar, the most numerous race of New Eden, are enslaved within the huge Amarr Empire (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Minmatar#History).
But it's one of the passages I think about when deciding how cynically to treat FW.
[/spoiler]
My guess is that it was rhetorical.
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Rhetorical, could refer to the crews of Republic Fleet vessels shot down in Imperial space, could refer to slaves born... I'd not place to much weight on something that vague.
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Rhetorical, could refer to the crews of Republic Fleet vessels shot down in Imperial space, could refer to slaves born... I'd not place to much weight on something that vague.
There is another option. Did the Empire ever officially recognize the Republic?
Because if it didnt, as far as the Empire is concerned, there isnt any "Republic" per se, but instead there are rebellious Imperial provinces filled with revolting slaves. But its still the "Empire", as far as Imperial law, policy and diplomacy is concerned.
That way the Empire could still say "it is illegal for us to take slaves from outside the Empire!" while still raiding the Republic for slaves. And its a true statement, from the Amarrian world view.
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Amarr recognised the Republic (unhappily) as part of the formation of CONCORD.