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[Aria Jenneth]

Remove ship size restrictions from plexes, or remove plexes and change the capture system entirely.

Porting over the existing FW mechanics would be horribad IMO.  There should be a range of activity. Perhaps keep the existing system for the Empires' proxy war, and make it scary and terrible for the pirate invasion border conflicts.

I'd prefer it if any new pirate FW system maintained the current lowsec ship types (generally BCs and up), instead of downgrading.

Silas, while I don't share Bloodbird's feelings, I do not think that "opening" the complexes in this way is a good idea. The highest levels of complex are already open to all comers, and they're not even all that uncommon.

The ship class filter has been responsible for some of the best fights I've ever been in. The PRETA versus Heretic Army destroyer fight was a frikkin' blast (32 versus 34 or so, five or six survivors), and none of us would have been flying those things if we hadn't been out to raid Minor sites. The filter provides diversity and gives smaller ships a role beyond tackling. For those of us who like the smaller, more maneuverable craft (and especially like to be able to indulge a dogfight without fearing a hotdrop or a sudden swarm of battlecruisers), the scaling sites are a godsend.

Just having "bring everything you like" fleets fight over everything would lead to a pretty monotonous war zone, methinks. At best, it's too closely analogous to other, existing conflict types. Nullsec tower wars, for example.

Now, one thing that I -do- think would be interesting would be making at least some pirate faction war complexes more ... complex. Multiple rooms, perhaps-- the equivalent of an actual mission zone, with a procedurally-generated maze of gates leading to the capture point, making both attack and defense trickier. I'm not sure it would work (it might just prove a massive boon to the defenders), but perhaps there could be hacking points that would allow an attacker to flip the loyalties of any static defenses (turrets, etc.), thereby slowing or halting a defender's pursuit.

[Silas Vitalia]

O...Kay. Still not onboard with Lowsec supers taking part, but w/e.

I still disagree strongly with your suggestion that all of Lowsec should become vulnerable in this. If the FacWar militias and the YarrWar militias have split lowsec between them, it still means that the mighty MilBlob will squat on what has previously been small gang and (yes, it's real) solo pirate turf, and effectively strangle them, as we have seen happen in FacWar regions. FacWar has shown us that even if you place all manner of limitations on plexes, the blob still blobs. We'd still need regions free of the war, where the commerce-raiding, missioner-tackling, and neighborly solo/small-gang-warring could thrive.

I'd be super (hah) ok with no capitals in lowsec, actually.  Bridging limited to black ops would be an interesting curve ball I'd definitely support.

Good points, and you are right that there needs to be a multiplicity of things going on in different areas.  They should shotgun a bunch of different mechanics in different regions and see which ones work and the players enjoy

[Silas Vitalia]

Silas, while I don't share Bloodbird's feelings, I do not think that "opening" the complexes in this way is a good idea. The highest levels of complex are already open to all comers, and they're not even all that uncommon.

The ship class filter has been responsible for some of the best fights I've ever been in. The PRETA versus Heretic Army destroyer fight was a frikkin' blast (32 versus 34 or so, five or six survivors), and none of us would have been flying those things if we hadn't been out to raid Minor sites. The filter provides diversity and gives smaller ships a role beyond tackling. For those of us who like the smaller, more maneuverable craft (and especially like to be able to indulge a dogfight without fearing a hotdrop or a sudden swarm of battlecruisers), the scaling sites are a godsend.

Just having "bring everything you like" fleets fight over everything would lead to a pretty monotonous war zone, methinks. At best, it's too closely analogous to other, existing conflict types. Nullsec tower wars, for example.

Now, one thing that I -do- think would be interesting would be making at least some pirate faction war complexes more ... complex. Multiple rooms, perhaps-- the equivalent of an actual mission zone, with a procedurally-generated maze of gates leading to the capture point, making both attack and defense trickier. I'm not sure it would work (it might just prove a massive boon to the defenders), but perhaps there could be hacking points that would allow an attacker to flip the loyalties of any static defenses (turrets, etc.), thereby slowing or halting a defender's pursuit.

Agree for the most part. My FW experience is limited but as you state it seems to tilt towards fast small ships (which is fine).  I'm looking for a similar dynamic that tilts towards the common lowsec ships (BC/BS), but still perhaps a step down from omg cap ship fleets of doom, that's not flooded with the small stuff.

A mythical and elusive beast that shant be found perhaps

[Aria Jenneth]

Agree for the most part. My FW experience is limited but as you state it seems to tilt towards fast small ships (which is fine).  I'm looking for a similar dynamic that tilts towards the common lowsec ships (BC/BS), but still perhaps a step down from omg cap ship fleets of doom, that's not flooded with the small stuff.

A mythical and elusive beast that shant be found perhaps

Hrrm. Actually, the FW experience I had was a bit more diverse. I was involved in FW over a fair period, either as participant or meddler. I don't know whether this is still the case, but Amarr/Matari FW seemed to tend toward swarms of little stuff eating heavy ships, while the Gal/Cal FW tended towards heavier fleets with the little stuff scrambling to stay out of the way.

Everybody had everything, to some extent, but my recollection is that each "zone" developed its own culture, and, from that, its own strategies, tactics, and combat protocols. Interesting stuff.

(As a pirate, you mostly wanted a frigate or dessie squad to hit Amarr/Minnie space; for Gal/Cal, you wanted at least a cruiser. Pilgrims fared well. That's just my recollection, but PRETA had specific orders not to bring heavy ships into the Amarr/Minnie conflict because they would die horribly.)

[Gottii]

RE: No capitals in Low sec: I think cyno's in low sec should take much, much longer than nulsec.  Would cut down on the viability of hot dropping lone Hurricanes,nulsec logistics lines through low sec would still exist, albeit a bit more time consuming, but not crippling. 

[Lyn Farel]

Silas, while I don't share Bloodbird's feelings, I do not think that "opening" the complexes in this way is a good idea. The highest levels of complex are already open to all comers, and they're not even all that uncommon.

The ship class filter has been responsible for some of the best fights I've ever been in. The PRETA versus Heretic Army destroyer fight was a frikkin' blast (32 versus 34 or so, five or six survivors), and none of us would have been flying those things if we hadn't been out to raid Minor sites. The filter provides diversity and gives smaller ships a role beyond tackling. For those of us who like the smaller, more maneuverable craft (and especially like to be able to indulge a dogfight without fearing a hotdrop or a sudden swarm of battlecruisers), the scaling sites are a godsend.

Just having "bring everything you like" fleets fight over everything would lead to a pretty monotonous war zone, methinks. At best, it's too closely analogous to other, existing conflict types. Nullsec tower wars, for example.

Now, one thing that I -do- think would be interesting would be making at least some pirate faction war complexes more ... complex. Multiple rooms, perhaps-- the equivalent of an actual mission zone, with a procedurally-generated maze of gates leading to the capture point, making both attack and defense trickier. I'm not sure it would work (it might just prove a massive boon to the defenders), but perhaps there could be hacking points that would allow an attacker to flip the loyalties of any static defenses (turrets, etc.), thereby slowing or halting a defender's pursuit.

Agree for the most part. My FW experience is limited but as you state it seems to tilt towards fast small ships (which is fine).  I'm looking for a similar dynamic that tilts towards the common lowsec ships (BC/BS), but still perhaps a step down from omg cap ship fleets of doom, that's not flooded with the small stuff.

A mythical and elusive beast that shant be found perhaps

I have done FW for 3 years, and I had an equal chance of getting frigate/cruiser fights as getting BC/BS fights, and the latter in major complexes especially, so places with no restrictions actually have been there since the beginning.

Of course, it is a little more common to find frig/cruisers when no fleets are around. Who wants to solo in BSes anyway ?

[Katrina Oniseki]

This thread has exploded with activity. 

I hope CCP is reading it.

[hellgremlin]

Some of you may be miscalculating.

Tony G didn't come up with the idea of a possessed Empress. He just wrote about it.

How did I know Jamyl would return, before she returned?

[Louella Dougans]

[spoiler]Istvaan is The Other.[/spoiler]

[hellgremlin]

[spoiler]No... merely one of its previous suits.[/spoiler]

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Correction: Most Pirates are — by and large — ganky, mediocre, or, at best, risk-averse.
My entire line of argument is: Pirates tend to fly small gang because there are few of them, while militias blob because there are a shitload of them. Militias and pirates do not co-exist well, because one is always able to swamp the other with sheer numbers, regardless of the skill-level of either side.

I suspect Silas will agree with me to some degree on this.

This has been my experience.  Although in reality it seems to me (again, from my limited experience as a "pirate" in TS-F) that we tend to outnumber to solo-plexers and random militia dues we get on gates, until we inevitably run into the Gallente Militia Hoard of 80+ ships which then proceeds to wipe our faces across the muddy, scrubby ground.

We blog the singles, and then get blobbed by the militia in turn, where blob = (My Fleet +1).

As to an earlier point you made, Bloodbird, the vast majority of pirates are not running around in battle cruisers.  That was the old way of doing things before cruisers became fun.  Frigates are bad choices for the low-sec non-militia-aligned pirate for the simple fact that you will never have the initiative on gates.

Please don't say that catching people inside of plexes is a reasonable option for making a living in low-sec, because it isn't.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Silas, while I don't share Bloodbird's feelings, I do not think that "opening" the complexes in this way is a good idea. The highest levels of complex are already open to all comers, and they're not even all that uncommon.

The ship class filter has been responsible for some of the best fights I've ever been in. The PRETA versus Heretic Army destroyer fight was a frikkin' blast (32 versus 34 or so, five or six survivors), and none of us would have been flying those things if we hadn't been out to raid Minor sites. The filter provides diversity and gives smaller ships a role beyond tackling. For those of us who like the smaller, more maneuverable craft (and especially like to be able to indulge a dogfight without fearing a hotdrop or a sudden swarm of battlecruisers), the scaling sites are a godsend.

Just having "bring everything you like" fleets fight over everything would lead to a pretty monotonous war zone, methinks. At best, it's too closely analogous to other, existing conflict types. Nullsec tower wars, for example.

Now, one thing that I -do- think would be interesting would be making at least some pirate faction war complexes more ... complex. Multiple rooms, perhaps-- the equivalent of an actual mission zone, with a procedurally-generated maze of gates leading to the capture point, making both attack and defense trickier. I'm not sure it would work (it might just prove a massive boon to the defenders), but perhaps there could be hacking points that would allow an attacker to flip the loyalties of any static defenses (turrets, etc.), thereby slowing or halting a defender's pursuit.

Agree for the most part. My FW experience is limited but as you state it seems to tilt towards fast small ships (which is fine).  I'm looking for a similar dynamic that tilts towards the common lowsec ships (BC/BS), but still perhaps a step down from omg cap ship fleets of doom, that's not flooded with the small stuff.

A mythical and elusive beast that shant be found perhaps

Where are you flying around where BS's are the low-sec ship of choice?  Please direct me to them!

[Silas Vitalia]

Silas, while I don't share Bloodbird's feelings, I do not think that "opening" the complexes in this way is a good idea. The highest levels of complex are already open to all comers, and they're not even all that uncommon.

The ship class filter has been responsible for some of the best fights I've ever been in. The PRETA versus Heretic Army destroyer fight was a frikkin' blast (32 versus 34 or so, five or six survivors), and none of us would have been flying those things if we hadn't been out to raid Minor sites. The filter provides diversity and gives smaller ships a role beyond tackling. For those of us who like the smaller, more maneuverable craft (and especially like to be able to indulge a dogfight without fearing a hotdrop or a sudden swarm of battlecruisers), the scaling sites are a godsend.

Just having "bring everything you like" fleets fight over everything would lead to a pretty monotonous war zone, methinks. At best, it's too closely analogous to other, existing conflict types. Nullsec tower wars, for example.

Now, one thing that I -do- think would be interesting would be making at least some pirate faction war complexes more ... complex. Multiple rooms, perhaps-- the equivalent of an actual mission zone, with a procedurally-generated maze of gates leading to the capture point, making both attack and defense trickier. I'm not sure it would work (it might just prove a massive boon to the defenders), but perhaps there could be hacking points that would allow an attacker to flip the loyalties of any static defenses (turrets, etc.), thereby slowing or halting a defender's pursuit.

Agree for the most part. My FW experience is limited but as you state it seems to tilt towards fast small ships (which is fine).  I'm looking for a similar dynamic that tilts towards the common lowsec ships (BC/BS), but still perhaps a step down from omg cap ship fleets of doom, that's not flooded with the small stuff.

A mythical and elusive beast that shant be found perhaps

Where are you flying around where BS's are the low-sec ship of choice?  Please direct me to them!

I see about 10% of ships we shoot or are shot at by that are cruisers in our ass end of the universe the Khanid Region.  It's BC/BS/T3

[Mithfindel]

I did actually one day read certain person's fiction stuff from beta era and went like "where have I heard this bef--- actually later".

Beats barbeque planning.

[Andreus Ixiris]

I'd like to see factional warfare, both as a storyline and as a mechanic, end.

It's gotten the Empires nowhere and once Heth and Jamyl are gone there's really no reason for it to continue.