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[Morwen Lagann]

The only thing worse than fighting an unending war is losing an unending war, etc.

Or running out of popcorn in the peanut gallery. Fucking Logibro took most of it with him when he left.

[Silas Vitalia]

FW has never had a direct relationship with being a loyalist.

Many people who are loyal to many factions have little interest in that particular slice of gameplay that Eve offers.

Just like some of you don't like null sec, or don't like non FW lowsec (crazy people, all of you!), some people dislike every single thing about FW. 

In general have fun in your corner, don't hate too much on others in theirs.

[V. Gesakaarin]

I guess the real discussion here is then, "How can I be an industrialist/non-pvp'er and be recognized as a factional loyalist."

[Katrina Oniseki]

I guess the real discussion here is then, "How can I be an industrialist/non-pvp'er and be recognized as a factional loyalist."

Essentially yes. While in my case I do PvP, I'm unable to with my current internet. 

[Gwen Ikiryo]

From my - albeit somewhat limited - experience of doing FWing on my non-RP alt, I have to say that I have no clue why so many people like it so much. It seems like a dull, stressful, and unrewarding experience (even when you win) populated almost completely by jerks. But I find Eve PvP kinda horribly designed to begin with, so that's probably why I miss the buzz.

In any case, while I already made this same point in OOC a while back, I'll say it again in a less horribly excecuted fashion here. It seems silly to me that anyone would think you need to fight in the faction war to be a loyalist. Afterall, there's several armed conflicts the country I presently live in is involved in, and I'm certainly not in any capacity. But for someone to accuse me of disloyalty to said country because I'm lazing around working from home instead of rushing off to enlist would be... Well, it'd be absurd. Anyone, save the most skinheaded of militant nationalists, would think so.

Now, mind, I'd understand if it was some kind of brutal total war ala WW2 where it's the end for your entire culture if you lose, and thus everyone is expected to chip in in full on fight-them-on-the-beaches fashion, but it's not. It's a distant, colonial war, with no chance of spreading to the "motherland" whatsoever. Life, for the most part, goes on as normal.

[V. Gesakaarin]

FW is much like the rest of Eve: The game mechanics can be pretty shit, but what makes it good is the people you meet, fly with, and do activities with. If you have people that have no interest in what you do, or share similar attitudes you're probably going to have a bad time doing things alone every day.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

FW is much like the rest of Eve: The game mechanics can be pretty shit, but what makes it good is the people you meet, fly with, and do activities with. If you have people that have no interest in what you do, or share similar attitudes you're probably going to have a bad time doing things alone every day.

I played FW for about a week with a group of close friends who I've known for years when they were trying the game, so the problem definitely wasn't the crowd I was running with. I just ended up feeling totally uninvested in it after not much time, since the victories were trivial and unpleasant due to how hostile people acted and the losses were essentially meaningless because of the low ship costs. It was like Team Fortress 2, only with 20 minute loading times and 1 minute matches.

I can appreciate that I probably have a weird perspective, though. It's strange, actually; In the way, the opposite of what you said is true for me. I have more fun playing alone or in tiny groups then with lots of others. What makes Eve fun for me is playing it like a Silent Hill game - Not the combat itself, but rather the feeling of tension and vulnerability that comes from trying to accomplish an objective while surrounded by far more dangerous opponents who are out for your blood. The sense of silence and solitude while knowing you could be jumped at any moment, the occasional combat being more based around panic and trying to make an awkward fighting retreat then actually win, etc.

That's why I usually like to do lowsec exploration in fairly frail, valuable ships.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Well that's the thing isn't it? You can play Eve in a lot of ways but if you end up trying to tie an RP concept with gameplay you don't enjoy then why bemoan that fact? I'm not even sure what being a loyalist means in the context of Eve and FW for one anyway. If FW didn't exist I'd probably be in low-sec ganking people more or less as I am now and I could still justify being a, "Caldari Loyalist" I suppose because it would be contextualized as being the exact same deniable asset type I play now.

It just appears to me that people are having difficulty creating their own vision for their RP and merging that with what they like doing in Eve to me here. Because if you had a clear idea for both then it should be pretty easy to set your own objectives, no?

[Pieter Tuulinen]

It seems silly to me that anyone would think you need to fight in the faction war to be a loyalist. Afterall, there's several armed conflicts the country I presently live in is involved in, and I'm certainly not in any capacity. But for someone to accuse me of disloyalty to said country because I'm lazing around working from home instead of rushing off to enlist would be... Well, it'd be absurd. Anyone, save the most skinheaded of militant nationalists, would think so.

You see, this is the problem. I don't think anybody with an ounce of sense said 'You don't fight in FacWar so you're not a Loyalist.' It has always been 'I fight in FacWar so I'm a Loyalist.'

You might decide that, absent World War II, your lazing around working from home makes you as much of a patriot as a military veteran with 20 years of service but, even if he's just a truck mechanic, nobody else is going to agree with you.

Now if you'd been, say, a Navy mechanic or an Airforce administrator...

[Vic Van Meter]

It seems silly to me that anyone would think you need to fight in the faction war to be a loyalist. Afterall, there's several armed conflicts the country I presently live in is involved in, and I'm certainly not in any capacity. But for someone to accuse me of disloyalty to said country because I'm lazing around working from home instead of rushing off to enlist would be... Well, it'd be absurd. Anyone, save the most skinheaded of militant nationalists, would think so.

You see, this is the problem. I don't think anybody with an ounce of sense said 'You don't fight in FacWar so you're not a Loyalist.' It has always been 'I fight in FacWar so I'm a Loyalist.'

You might decide that, absent World War II, your lazing around working from home makes you as much of a patriot as a military veteran with 20 years of service but, even if he's just a truck mechanic, nobody else is going to agree with you.

Now if you'd been, say, a Navy mechanic or an Airforce administrator...

That depends.  Here, if you serve a few tours of duty, decide that war is Hell and decide to become an anti-war activist, you'll definitely have people who've never served calling you a traitor.  Then again, if you decide not to fight in a war you don't believe in and it turns out you were right about it being a bad idea, you get the same treatment.

I think being a "loyalist" doesn't necessarily mean you're doing what's best for the state.  It often means you're loyal to the same principles as whoever's calling you that.  It's all subjective.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

You see, this is the problem. I don't think anybody with an ounce of sense said 'You don't fight in FacWar so you're not a Loyalist.' It has always been 'I fight in FacWar so I'm a Loyalist.'

You might decide that, absent World War II, your lazing around working from home makes you as much of a patriot as a military veteran with 20 years of service but, even if he's just a truck mechanic, nobody else is going to agree with you.

Now if you'd been, say, a Navy mechanic or an Airforce administrator...

I wouldn't deny that, to be sure. Though, I would say that I'd probably consider someone who was, say, a social worker, as just as much a patriot as someone who served in the military, possibly even more so. Equally a doctor or firefighter or anything like that - The point is that they've done something to serve the community at large.

But my sentiment is that it's moot, because barely anyone would ever play more-patriotic-then-thou in such a fashion anyway. I doubt said mechanic would accuse me of not being a "Loyalist" simply because I'm living my life like a normal person, since society is based around normal people living normal lives. Basic loyalty or patriotism to your country isn't really something that needs to be proven, it's just assumed.

Too much of Eve roleplay is framed in an exclusively military context, I think.

Oh - And the sentiment above is true, also. An anti-war individual might consider the person involved in the military less of a pariot, even, for supporting a flawed cause. Though I won't delve too much into that idea, since it's probably a prickly one.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Thing is, the Caldari State is described as being a deeply militarized society. While it doesn't mean to me that Caldari spend all day on the parade grounds, or being stereotypical right-wing nationalist jingoists, a military mindset does colour a lot of how Caldari think and see the world I'd say.

When I look at the Caldari State, I see very great similarities as to how they behave and think in a general sense to societies that perceive themselves to be small, and surrounded by potential enemies, thus requiring a militarized society -- Israel, Singapore, Prussia etc.

I also think a lot of Caldari justified what they were doing as being, "Anti-Heth" and now without Heth, they seem a bit up a creek without a paddle.

[orange]

I guess the real discussion here is then, "How can I be an industrialist/non-pvp'er and be recognized as a factional loyalist."

Essentially yes. While in my case I do PvP, I'm unable to with my current internet. 

Ok, so I am going to do the dangerous thing and ask a question I may not like the answer to - is Dex Nederland not considered a State loyalist (Lai Dai) because he (and his corp) is primarily industrialist?

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Thing is, the Caldari State is described as being a deeply militarized society. While it doesn't mean to me that Caldari spend all day on the parade grounds, or being stereotypical right-wing nationalist jingoists, a military mindset does colour a lot of how Caldari think and see the world I'd say.

When I look at the Caldari State, I see very great similarities as to how they behave and think in a general sense to societies that perceive themselves to be small, and surrounded by potential enemies, thus requiring a militarized society -- Israel, Singapore, Prussia etc.

I also think a lot of Caldari justified what they were doing as being, "Anti-Heth" and now without Heth, they seem a bit up a creek without a paddle.

Well, "Militarized" doesn't mean "Pick up a gun and fight or you suck", by any means.

While a great deal of Caldari industry is of course focused on it's military-industrial complex, and most people recieve basic military training, the vast majority - To quote the demographics article, 95% - Aren't going to even be doing any indirect fighting themselves.

But I doubt they're not viewed as proper citizens for that reason.

[Leon026]

My little 2 cents, so take this how you will.

"Patriotism" has always been a prickly idea no matter how you look at it. Always has been because it remains an ideology, and each person have their definition of what it means to be a patriot or a nationalist - whether its IRL or in EVE.

To some being a patriot means going out on the streets and protesting for educational reform and defense budget cuts, because the future of the country lies in the students, and not the army.

To others, being a patriot means grumbling and writing blogs about increasing defense spending because the safety and security of the country is paramount to the prestige and the future of the nation.

And to others, being a patriot means helping people that are in need of help, because a strong society means that the nation as a whole will be strong through cohesion.


It all depends on perspective, and how receptive people are to opinions and on definitions on "what it means to be a patriot". Its like how I serve in the French army, and I'll have people say to me "thank you for your service". I personally don't see how I could be of service to them, but I suppose they see me as a patriot, when oddly enough, I share more with north american and japanese culture than I do with French culture, yet I think what I do is important... but not necessarily out of patriotism.

Fighting for what you believe in, putting actions where your words are, will always be "more important" or more of "value" than empty words, certainly. But the use of force whether lawful or unlawful doesnt necessarily make that more worthwhile than someone that utilizes his strength (economic, or social assistance) to help the greater community. Assuming in the first place that serving the community is patriotism.


Personally, I find that tying patriotism to the use of force/military service is very narrow-minded, and far too simply for an idea that is interpreted differently to each person.

Rather, the question should be, "is what I am doing advancing my interpretation of patriotism?"