Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Jade Constantine on 16 Jun 2011, 08:31
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This is a discussion thread for friendly out of character questions and answers, debate and brainstorming to support the in-character campaigning of the Star Fraction in Placid Region.
I’m going to begin the thread with a recap of history to include the initial deployment and conflict with Moira/Rote Kapelle/Veto corporations and link to some IGS campaign writing and outcomes from our perspective and would welcome other participants to link to their own IC material if they please.
I’d urge everyone to keep their tempers, post constructively and look for ways to progressively collaborate on storylines and involvement in the future. Let’s have as little nit-picking as possible and absolutely no suggestion that anyone is doing their roleplay wrong!
So background to the current events:
With the conclusion of the Fraction’s deployment in Kamela/Providence with the fall of Ushra’khan Providence to the Evoke/Ewok hordes and our rearguard against On the Rocks/BDEAL/Teutonic Guard (and many others) at the beginning of the year – we decided to go back to basics for the Star Fraction.
We’d had our fill of 0.0 politics again, we’d supported our allies in the destruction of CVA Providence – we’d tried our hand at building a FreeSpace outpost in YWS0-Z and we’d have a pretty damned good narrative in its defence and our terrible revenge against those that betrayed the Ushra’khan and ourselves in the fall of free Providence.
But our membership wanted to do something different now, and wanted an entirely new region and focus, with different roleplay ideologies at work and a different cast of characters to interact with in various ways. We’d had the vote running for a while and Placid Region was coming tops. I think truth be told we were done with Amarrian space and the 24th Crusade vs TLF conflict and done with CVA – we’d been focusing on this for years and it was time for something new and perhaps a return to some anarcho-capitalist strands in the tapestry of our foundation.
Placid was favourite because its proximity to Intaki / the likely presence of I-RED and their allies (for good or ill) the generally pirate-haunted systems (very busy for plenty of pvp) and the close availability of 0.0 when we were in the mood to roam. We felt that simply by setting up in Ostingele (a notorious pirate hotbed system that predates on neutral trade from stacmon) we’d create a splash and get all the interest we needed to build freeform intrigues and adventures.
Roleplay wise we were looking to come with no preconceptions this time and to let diplomatic engagements take their own course. We didn’t know if we’d be fighting I-RED and their allies in Intaki or concentrating solely on pirates, or getting targeted by some other entity out here. We left it to dynamic interaction.
Our first weeks were pretty exciting – we got slaughtered by the local pirates! Every time we put out a gang of shield-battlecruisers or armour hacs we got countered by somebody bigger and better prepared than we were and even the local Australian timezone group were kicking us ten ways from Sunday! We chose to call the general campaign we were fighting “Welcome to Osten-hell” for this reason and resolved to wise up or die since this was exactly the kind of action we came to Placid to find.
Roleplay possibilities were happening already though – I-RED proved to be considerably more open to negotiation and coexistence than we’d expected and their own experiences with Nationalism in the area were forming their opinions in tandem. We agreed a ceasefire and neutrality and attended the memorial service at their invitation this year to the surprise of many. Local Intaki separatist corporations were also in touch with us – looking for ways to cooperate and coexist and we could simply respond with our intentions to boost the economy of the region and respect all neutral trade and commerce while hunting gcc hostiles and regional road-blockers. Was good stuff!
We were learning our lessons from underestimating the local pirates also, but then a new factor reared its head. Rote Kapelle (mainly in the guise of a trial corp) Lucifiers Hammer were getting involved with our operations – while an ex-rote kapelle corp “Moira” were interfering with our pilots while we were fighting pirates in Ostingele. Moira had already earned their -10 for shooting one of our torpedo-bombers in Syndicate a few weeks earlier.
For a few days a cold-war environment persisted – the Moira CEO trying to goad our pilots into gcc’ing on stargates and larger Moira gangs bumping our ships around while we were trying to catch the local rats in Macherials. It was increasingly provoking our pilots and when Moira finally spoke up in local to the effect that Star Fraction “wasn’t welcome in placid” we decided enough was enough and proposed a snap wardec to the membership to allow our pilots to deal with these -10 (but not gcc) hostiles.
The Vote passed and we were at war. Initially we considered this purely a tactical decision to stop Moira messing with our patrols and decided not to declare it a formal campaign with attendant IGS threads etc. But Moira on the other hand decided they could make mileage from the fighting and launched a thread + blog post + twitter feed to show their appreciation for the war.
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As I said in the earlier locked thread by Scagga. This is definitely an RP war from start to finish. The Star Fraction has been roleplaying freespace anarchists since the server was switched on. We’ve produced ideological material with a richer campaign history than most PF entities and I think we’re probably as recognizable a faction (fraction) as anything in the npc sphere. Most players in the game understand what we’re about and how to provoke a conflict with the Free Captains.
I believe Moira also have a clear RP identity that promotes their opposition to Sansha alongside their Federal Gallente nationalism so when we hear in local that Moira pilots consider SF presence in placid to be an unwelcome destabilizing factor in the region that symbolizes a desire for decent RP interaction that allows both ideologies to tangle in space. More or less I think the progress of the fighting thereafter developed this to good effect.
We decided to establish a staging and manufacturing tower in Pelille System a few hundred thousand kilometres (ie next moon over) from the Moira HQ “Argos” where they had their laboratories/reactors and silos and was the central base for their operations. It’s our belief it is always best to risk something in space during these conflicts and since Moira had a tower in the conflict zone we needed one also for them to have a chance at shooting back at. Also, we wanted to demonstrate our commercial credentials by having our tower manufacturing combat drugs in space for our enemies to see.
In terms of win conditions for the conflict we were content to be dynamic again. At the baseline our “win” is simply to remain in placid and not be interrupted in our business in space – we wanted to react to Moira’s win conditions on this occasion and since the initial public RP statements from Moira suggested they wanted to drive us from the Region this seemed quite compatible and a good basis for conflict.
Over the first 45 days of the war we saw a lot of interesting development:
Early on we took quite a few losses while Moira were competent as a tight unit and punished our unwise pilots taking on heavy odds. But we were still in a logistics phase truth be told and for the first 10 days most of our pilots were still moving appropriate ships to place – or preparing for action in Pelille System We were evolving tactics we’d ultimately need to eliminate the Moira HQ tower in the dangerous environment of lowsec Placid. It was quite amusing to read the IGS posts from people betting on a Moira "win" that that early stage - we stayed quietly confident and said little while getting our warmachine into high gear.
By the end of week 2 we’d turned the tables on Moira and were beginning to be fully dominant in space while the Cruise-Missile Raven fleets we’d designed were able to incap the Moira tower with impunity – things were going pretty well up until the farrago over Veto’s involvement as intermediaries seeking a peaceful solution to the conflict etc.
This was ultimately to come to nothing because Moira proposed that an IGS posting ban would be part of the ceasefire term and that was never going to fly with our free captains.
I also get the distinct impression that neither Soter nor Verone really believed me when I told them I could not make the ceasefire/accept their surrender terms unilaterally and would need the free captains (full membership of the Fraction) to vote on the issue. This in itself will make an interesting follow-on discussion because I do think the existence of a genuinely democratic corp/alliance structure in Eve online does blow people’s minds a bit and I’d like to answer people’s questions on that matter.
Anyway, ceasefire didn’t happen and SF went on to suffer the most painful 24 hours in the entire conflict. Veto and Rote Kapelle got involved on Moira’s behalf and destroyed a couple of expensive ships during our POS attacking (Rooks and Kings also randomly hotdropped us killing another 6 ravens) – temperature of the dispute increased and I think my message to Veto telling them its ceo would no longer be required as an intermediary might have added to the fury!
It got brutal – large fleets of Rote and Veto kept backing Moira and looking for a decisive fight against us while we got increasingly cunning in our tower assaults against Moira – operating with stand-off vessels in short duration strikes to incap half a dozen tower modules to force Moira to spend hours in toil repairing them only to do the same again the following night. Rote got frustrated with this and claimed we never wanted to fight them – we agreed, we never did want to fight them while we were busy with the Moira POS, which was very true. We are guerilla fighters and we'd much rather pick off loners with high powered sniper rifles than go toe to toe with a massive enemy force in trench warfare.
Then came the 2nd day of the alliance tournament; Rote Kapelle and Veto assembled (what I’ve been told) was the biggest CTA in their collective history – a force of 102 vessels with a significant proportion of capitals and supercaps that arrived in precise timing as our tournament match began, in order to assault the Star Fraction towers in Placid. Each of the Rote/Veto ships were named “gl in the tourney” and their cyno ship was named “better luck next year” – and fortunately for Rote/Veto we lost badly in round one with our curse/bomber tactic disappointing in its failure.
It was quite a hit but rather than getting despondent it actually motivated our pilots and there was a mood of grim determination now to overcome this enemy coalition, survive, save our towers and continue with the destruction of the Moira HQ. Rote decided to add insult to injury by wardeccing us (presumably to take less sec loss during the reinforcement battle for the tower)
Still we've been the underdogs before (more often than not in fact) and we simply did the preparation and hard work needed for victory.
We saved our towers with a huge flock of logistics ships when they came out of reinforcement (22 shield logistics at one point) – we’d been both hurt and aided by the patch day downtime – on the one hand it did get in the way of rote/veto planning for the reinforcement battle / but it also moved the timing of the reinforcement battle from midday euro (our chosen fight) to mid evening euro (which rote/veto can operate in) and for some bizarre reason the Pelille tower had remained on 25% shield throughout the entire extended downtime ... bah. But in the event Rote and Veto could not muster a force and we saved the towers and then took the opportunity to massively upgun then for a potential 2nd round of defensive warfare.
The following week was cagey – we again decided to play carefully only attacking the Moira tower in 20-30min slices while watching Rote/Veto extremely carefully in their home system with a vast collection of subtle spies.
We knew we could keep up the attrition warfare as long as it took – but an organization like Rote/Veto needs to feed the “thrills” of its membership and give them kills during a fleet op so denying this is generally as good if not better than actually killing their ships. Remember at this point we are laser-focused on the objective which is the Moira HQ – Rote and Veto at best a distraction at worst a way of letting our primary targets off the hook.
And then of course there’s the wilful independence of free-captains. Thinking of ways to hurt our new war-enemies a small group of our pilots decided to find and assassinate Rote Kapelle mission-runners over 20 jumps from the conflict zone. We managed 3 of these high-profile kills and each time there was quite an impact from the Rote killboards on the issue and some apparent divides came to light about the willingness of Rote to actually fight such a war.
Which is another interesting aside really, since traditionally when we thought of Rote Kapelle many of the old guard of Star Fraction imagined they’d just be like we were in the Kimotoro campaign but x10 in terms of member numbers – and we had this vision of being permacamped and hunted by ourselves in effect. But reality was dawning – adding 10x the numbers doesn’t make 10x the number of resolute and enthusiastic hunters and as an organization Rote currently is probably much less dangerous than KD era SF was simply because of the necessary focus on kills and killboard activity over targeted assassination and genuine psychological warfare.
In actuality Rote functions just like any other 0.0 power really, powerful in a group certainly, but difficult to motivate for individual acts of creativity and genius most especially in relation to principled ideological warfare. The only people we really need to fear would be an enemy who could put in our own levels of effort in mission stalking/intel-gathering/deep and surgical assassination of targets. Post conflict assessment of Rote Kapelle is that the rank and file simply doesn't care enough about the old ic feud to put the effort in to progress it.
Anyway, 2nd weekend of the alliance tournament came around and we put in a good result that was unfortunately not quite enough to qualify but we left the competition with our heads held high after thrashing the opponents with route one battlecruisers and now eager to finish the job on Moira with no further distractions.
It also looked like Moira itself had decided to “advance in the other direction” from Pelille because their CEO declared a new operation on their killboard called Dikosyn based around Sinq Liason and the Rancer pirates. This was 20 jumps + from Pelille and most of the active Moira fighters were disappearing fast. No public notification or diplomacy but you learn to read the signs when an enemy decides it’s not happy with the status quo.
We planned a finishing blow on the Moira tower knowing they’d either have to come back from Sinq Liason to fight it or leave their HQ to burn. Then to our amazement discovered the tower appeared to be improperly fuelled and all the weaponry had gone offline (happens when you run out of liquid ozone) – seizing the opportunity with Fedaykin bombers we reinforced the tower and then incapped all the offline weaponry setting ourselves up for a favourable opportunity to finish matters at primetime on the following Sunday.
The fight itself was quite a good one. Moira did show up and skirmished with tech2 frigates and cruisers and eventually opened a cyno for a small group of Rote Kapelle carriers to jump through and attempt to smartbomb our bomber group. This was marginally successful for Rote (they killed a bomber) but they almost immediately withdrew to their home system and played no further role in events.
We completed the destruction of the tower and salvaged the economic structures – ferrying those across to Agoze where we placed them on the market at the Moira Lowsec Bazaar.
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So in conclusion
That really is the current state of play and I think it’s likely that will be all she wrote on the Moira war. We quite happy with the outcome in the Fraction and consider that we’ve proven our point and asserted our ability to travel freely where we choose and conduct economic activities anywhere we want to. We see the conflict in the context of a Nationalist/road-blocker aligned entity attempting to deny access to the radical anarchism of the Fraction and being defeated in that aspiration. It was excellent to see a smallish conflict spiral into something bigger with two very large and powerful alliances attempting to lean on the Fraction and attempt to support Moira as a Proxy and created a lot of entertaining back and forth on the forums to be sure!
A couple of days ago I sent an open letter to the Moira membership with a suggestion of the surrender statement they might provide if they wanted a formal end of hostilities (ie return to neutral standing). It’s entirely up to Moira if they want to do this or simply withdraw to another region of space and remain -10 KOS after the formal wardec elapses when we decide its usefulness is over. The detail of the surrender terms is up to Moira to mull over, but I don’t mind if Julianus was to repost it here – my intention was simply to assure the Moira players that we had absolutely no intention of insisting Soter should leave his corp as a price for peace.
Speaking personally I quite like a proper tidy outcome to wars where one side will publicly acknowledge its defeat but I do accept it can be a difficult thing to do when trying to save face etc. I think we'd be happy to see Moira remain -10 if thats what they choose and who knows - we'll probably get many more opportunties for snap recurring wardecs in the future should they get involved with public events again - everyone wins from this kind of entertainment.
In any case I’d like to thank Moira and their CEO for this conflict and their part in providing some quite good roleplay at times and interesting IC propaganda, blog-posting and such. It has been good to re-acquaint ourselves with Gallente Nationalism in this way and definitely provided a significant boost for the enjoyment of our membership this summer.
For anyone interested in the IC progression of events the following IGS posts tell the story quite neatly:
Soter's Opening post (sets the terms of the war etc)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=1#1 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=1#1)
Soter updates with some kills and Titan sighting
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=1#27 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=1#27)
Our first public report (war so far)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=2#58 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=2#58)
Our second public report (post veto/kapelle intervention)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=2#60 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=2#60)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=3#61 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=3#61)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=3#62 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=3#62)
Timeline of the conflict (to the veto/kapelle intervention)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=5#148 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=5#148)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=5#149 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=5#149)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=5#150 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=5#150)
Our third public report (post destruction of the Moira HQ “Argos”)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#219 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#219)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#220 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#220)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#221 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#221)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#222 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#222)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#223 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#223)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#224 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1505380&page=8#224)
***
Looking forward to post conflict Placid I think now we’d be very interested in future collaboration with other RP organizations in the area while we get back to honing our skills and engagement methodology against gcc regional hostiles and roving marauders intent on sucking the life from free trade and open commerce!
As noted at the beginning of this thread I’m very happy to answer questions posed in a friendly and open manner and I’d love to get involved in a respectful discussion over any elements of Fraction roleplay and ideology people might like to explore.
All the best!
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This might be a little off topic, or it might not.
That was an epic wall of text recounting recent events. The thing is, the people who care about said events (or find them interesting) have been paying attention and already know what happened, and the people who don't are going to see a massive wall of text and look away. Condense that down to one or two paragraphs - perhaps with a link to the more detailed version you put on IGS. I know you love your historical recaps, but this one's hardly going to be read because everyone either already knows what happened or doesn't care.
Back on topic, I'm curious how SF views the major (and minor) parties in placid. I recall there being some hubub when the neutral standings with I-RED were announced. There's the major players like I-RED and ILF, there were some drones for a while that I'm hoping will show up again, and for a while there were some pesky serps running around that seem to be suffering a bout of inactivity lately. And then of course there's the militia.
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I agree with Victoria.
There is also something else that annoys me : the title. It is totally biased (enclosurist road blockers is definitly pejorative) and maybe it is just me, but putting it that way to start an OOC discussion puts the opposite parties in bad light or in an embarassing position when they are gonna try to answer/discuss, etc. You can definitly be biased when discussing about something, though.
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Discussions with all entities are usually open. We respond to and, as needed, open discussions with any of the entities of a given area, keeping an eye on the historical interactions embedded in the standings. Consequently, we've been in contact with I-RED and ILF regularly, though as yet, the occasion for combined arms engagements hasn't presented itself. In short, we are remaining flexible and in an "observation" mode with regard to most of the entities of Placid/Verge. Several of us noted the drone group with amusement.
Following the close interaction of SF with TLF and other allied (more or less) entities in the Kamela area, we've been a bit more insular this time around, preferring to concentrate on our own process and members on a day-to-day basis.
In reference to the OP, I will say that I have to hand it to Moira. at various points of engagement. The initial salvos were well played and provided a good deal of fun for our members as they began unlearning the engagement methods of the 24th IC et. al. and relearning the quicker skirmishing styles of low-sec Placid. Initially the "submarine" style of engagement in the majority of the war was also a bit of a challenge for us though as this phase wore on, the tedium overtook us slightly, especially when it was noted that some members of Moira. were to be found engageable in mission spaces.
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I've always had a tough time taking OOC conflicts and repackaging them as IC.
This is an admirable attempt though, and I can see a lot of work went into it.
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This might be a little off topic, or it might not. That was an epic wall of text recounting recent events. The thing is, the people who care about said events (or find them interesting) have been paying attention and already know what happened, and the people who don't are going to see a massive wall of text and look away. Condense that down to one or two paragraphs - perhaps with a link to the more detailed version you put on IGS. I know you love your historical recaps, but this one's hardly going to be read because everyone either already knows what happened or doesn't care.
Possibly so Victoria, but I always prefer to err on the side of providing the whole story. I think there is a useful purpose to having an ooc discussion thread on the subject and now various others have been closed and a lot of the bad-tempered arguments have been and gone I'd like to believe we can have a useful discussion.
Back on topic, I'm curious how SF views the major (and minor) parties in placid. I recall there being some hubub when the neutral standings with I-RED were announced. There's the major players like I-RED and ILF, there were some drones for a while that I'm hoping will show up again, and for a while there were some pesky serps running around that seem to be suffering a bout of inactivity lately. And then of course there's the militia.
As mentioned in the main post our relations with I-RED have been quite a surprise. I think most of us expected we'd be crossing swords with them in Placid at some point and I was certainly taken aback by the manner of their forthright and respectful diplomacy and I think it made us step back and reconsider some of our own organizational inertia-towards-conflict to a degree. It was dynamic and interesting and I think sets a nice tone for the next phase in our adventures here.
Beyond that there is a strain of serpentis loyalist vs Intaki separatist tension under the surface and I've been intereted in reading up on the roleplay of the Separatist organizations attempting to free their own people from bondage to the serpentis drug trade and criminal cartels. We've had internal discussions lately on how the role of capsuleer combat drugs constrasts with serpentis narcotic trading (if at all) and how that moves into people's roleplay in the region.
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There is also something else that annoys me : the title. It is totally biased (enclosurist road blockers is definitly pejorative) and maybe it is just me, but putting it that way to start an OOC discussion puts the opposite parties in bad light or in an embarassing position when they are gonna try to answer/discuss, etc. You can definitly be biased when discussing about something, though.
Well you say that but its quite light-hearted albeit entirely accurate. The war we fought was because people tried to stop us going where we choose (enclosurist) backed by NBSI pirates (road-blockers) those are terms we've developed in play to describe our character's perception of certain political realities in the star cluster. I mean we could be massively politically correct and say ...
"SF in Placid space gypsies vs the government"
"SF in Placid right to ramble vs farmers"
"SF in Placid NRDS vs NBSI"
"SF in Placid Free Captains vs Nationalist Pirates"
But does it help that much? We moved to Placid to do as Scagga neatly summed up in the previous thread - to do our thing and wait for somebody to mess with us. That somebody was an enclosurist power backed by roadblockers - I'm not really seeing the issue with it.
Perhaps you could suggest a title you think more appropriate?
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I've always had a tough time taking OOC conflicts and repackaging them as IC. This is an admirable attempt though, and I can see a lot of work went into it.
I assure you this was an entirely IC conflict from beginning to end and I'd ask you as a favour to stop doubting my word on that. I don't think its a very helpful angle to pursue for anyone interested in a better debating environment either. It is far more positive to simply accept that it was roleplay from beginning to end and interact and discuss on that basis. Unless we learn to think the better of each other and take some things on faith then this community will find it very difficult to get past its past feuds and difficulties.
I hope you will agree.
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Are we really still talking about this? >>
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Are we really still talking about this? >>
Not really, this is more of a overview.
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Thank you for the recount and story telling, quite entertaining as i didn't knew all the details, which coincidentally are a point of interest to the Gallente Militia members.
Moira was part of the GalMil group once, Rote Kapelle and Veto usually exchange fire with us and Rook and Kings just loves hotdropping onto our roaming fleets.....so in the end good to see how things panned out for your group of free captains.
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I mean we could be massively politically correct and say ...
"SF in Placid space gypsies vs the government"
"SF in Placid right to ramble vs farmers"
"SF in Placid NRDS vs NBSI"
"SF in Placid Free Captains vs Nationalist Pirates"
Perhaps you could suggest a title you think more appropriate?
In the interest of saving the name calling for IC rather than OOC, go with something simple like, "SF in Placid: Now what?" In addition to not calling other people names or placing labels they don't like on their RP, it is much more appropriate to the discussion at hand. Since SF moved to Placid, the story has been dominated by the war with moira and the IC/OOC diplomatic clusterfuck that resulted, and the fleet of threadnaughts it spawned.
Now that that is over, the question is, now what?
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I've always had a tough time taking OOC conflicts and repackaging them as IC. This is an admirable attempt though, and I can see a lot of work went into it.
I assure you this was an entirely IC conflict from beginning to end and I'd ask you as a favour to stop doubting my word on that. I don't think its a very helpful angle to pursue for anyone interested in a better debating environment either. It is far more positive to simply accept that it was roleplay from beginning to end and interact and discuss on that basis. Unless we learn to think the better of each other and take some things on faith then this community will find it very difficult to get past its past feuds and difficulties.
I hope you will agree.
Fair enough.
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I am interested to see what happens next.
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Been following this closely; the SF presence has made Placid much more interesting. And there are fewer Roos in Ostingele these days.
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I can't help but chuckle, considering just about every single assumption you've made about Veto Corp's ideology and how we operate is incorrect.
Still, the tower reinforcement gave our guys a good training lesson in cap deployment, which we were grateful for. Thank you.
Have fun in Placid, I'm sure we'll sink our teeth in again when it's convenient and we're not busy fighting the good fight where the action is elsewhere.
:bear:
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Veto has ideology?
F1, F2, F-- :groupall: F1...
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Veto has ideology?
F1, F2, F-- :groupall: F1...
<3
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I mean we could be massively politically correct and say ...
"SF in Placid space gypsies vs the government"
"SF in Placid right to ramble vs farmers"
"SF in Placid NRDS vs NBSI"
"SF in Placid Free Captains vs Nationalist Pirates"
Perhaps you could suggest a title you think more appropriate?
In the interest of saving the name calling for IC rather than OOC, go with something simple like, "SF in Placid: Now what?" In addition to not calling other people names or placing labels they don't like on their RP, it is much more appropriate to the discussion at hand. Since SF moved to Placid, the story has been dominated by the war with moira and the IC/OOC diplomatic clusterfuck that resulted, and the fleet of threadnaughts it spawned.
Now that that is over, the question is, now what?
Said better that I would have.
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I mean we could be massively politically correct and say ...
"SF in Placid space gypsies vs the government"
"SF in Placid right to ramble vs farmers"
"SF in Placid NRDS vs NBSI"
"SF in Placid Free Captains vs Nationalist Pirates"
Perhaps you could suggest a title you think more appropriate?
In the interest of saving the name calling for IC rather than OOC, go with something simple like, "SF in Placid: Now what?" In addition to not calling other people names or placing labels they don't like on their RP, it is much more appropriate to the discussion at hand. Since SF moved to Placid, the story has been dominated by the war with moira and the IC/OOC diplomatic clusterfuck that resulted, and the fleet of threadnaughts it spawned.
Now that that is over, the question is, now what?
Okay I've updated the title as you suggest - hopefully people agree its nice and neutral now :)
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I can't help but chuckle, considering just about every single assumption you've made about Veto Corp's ideology and how we operate is incorrect.
To be fair I haven't made any real assumptions about Veto ideology. I was speaking in the main about our experience of Rote Kapelle combat methodology where I spoke of Rote/Veto knowing that they were providing the fc'ing and direction in your recent collaborations. However do feel free to clarify your outlook insofar as it might be useful to a respectful discussion of the subject.
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FWIW the same applies to your interpretation of RK's approach to combat in general and this conflict more specifically. Particularly this bit:
In actuality Rote functions just like any other 0.0 power really, powerful in a group certainly, but difficult to motivate for individual acts of creativity and genius most especially in relation to principled ideological warfare.
For starters Rote doesn't operate with any sort of ideological goals or campaign targets; this goes doubly so with high-sec wars, especially since the SF wardec was largely for crim flagging convenience on a tower not hunting targets (thanks CCP for that UI patch :psyccp:). It seems to me like you are trying to apply the SF approach to war and combat to an entity which doesn't operate at all like SF does, which naturally leads to a misunderstanding of our actions. In that vein I would say you are completely wrong about RK pilots and individual motivation. We have quite a few very skilled solo (and very small gang) pilots who do some rather impressive stuff. Just a quick look over Proxay's (http://www.rotekapelle.com/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=29426) Tengu slaughtering spree to see some of the more recent stuff. I think I can safely say that the majority of RK's pilots (aside from FOVRA) much prefer to operate in null-sec and don't particularly care much for low-sec or high-sec wardec fighting. It usually takes a missioning carrier to spark an interest in roaming into Placid low-sec on most nights.
tl;dr version:
Veto has ideology?
F1, F2, F-- :groupall: F1...
Total mystery why we get along so well with Veto. :cube:
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To be fair I haven't made any real assumptions about Veto ideology.
...
...I spoke of Rote/Veto knowing that they were providing the fc'ing and direction in your recent collaborations.
...Rote and Veto kept backing Moira and looking for a decisive fight against us...
...Rote Kapelle and Veto assembled (what I’ve been told) was the biggest CTA in their collective history
... it did get in the way of rote/veto planning for the reinforcement battle / but it also moved the timing of the reinforcement battle from midday euro (our chosen fight) to mid evening euro (which rote/veto can operate in)...
Rote/Veto needs to feed the “thrills” of its membership and give them kills during a fleet op so denying this is generally as good
To quote but a few, from one thread of many where you're completely wrong about how and why we fight.
You assume far too much, and you assume based on very bad intelligence that you're receiving from very unreliable sources.
I've explained it all before, both IC and OOC and it just doesn't sink in, you're still in that bubble.
I can't be bothered to repeat myself so I'll just let you float there.
Have fun in Placid Jade.
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Are we really still talking about this? >>
Not really, this is more of a overview.
Ohh, if only life were so easy...
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Interesting to hear about SF's transition from Providence to Placid, I was a little curious about why you guys moved. I'd certainly be up for some ideology style interaction, getting a fix on practical applications of free space ideology within the Federal sector, figuring out how compatible Simon and the Star Fraction's visions of the future are, that sort of thing, when I get back home.
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FWIW the same applies to your interpretation of RK's approach to combat in general and this conflict more specifically. Particularly this bit:
In actuality Rote functions just like any other 0.0 power really, powerful in a group certainly, but difficult to motivate for individual acts of creativity and genius most especially in relation to principled ideological warfare.
For starters Rote doesn't operate with any sort of ideological goals or campaign targets; this goes doubly so with high-sec wars, especially since the SF wardec was largely for crim flagging convenience on a tower not hunting targets (thanks CCP for that UI patch :psyccp:).
I don't really think we are disagreeing at all Misan. I'm not saying Rote has no pilots capable of individual acts of creativity or genius - just that as an entity it has no pilots who wish to put these efforts (or flair) into ideologically-principled warfare - which means fighting for a purpose or campaign goal rather than simply for the joy of fighting. I did recognize in my opening text that the wardec was most-likely about the tower reinforcment battle and avoiding gcc'ing your cap fleet.
It seems to me like you are trying to apply the SF approach to war and combat to an entity which doesn't operate at all like SF does, which naturally leads to a misunderstanding of our actions. In that vein I would say you are completely wrong about RK pilots and individual motivation. We have quite a few very skilled solo (and very small gang) pilots who do some rather impressive stuff. Just a quick look over Proxay's (http://www.rotekapelle.com/killboard/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=29426) Tengu slaughtering spree to see some of the more recent stuff.
I don't feel I am trying to "apply" it so much as contrast and compare actually. My point earlier was that our concern for (and respect of the capabilities of) Rote as an entity was based on a mistaken assessment (on our part) that your outlook would allow the same kind of focus on ideological warfare that we practise. I well know you have silled solo and small gang pilots and I've watched Proxay's goon tengu slaughtering spree with amusement - but my point was I don't think you have pilots of this calibre who are interested in fighting no-quarter wars against ideological enemies in the context of a formal campaign. In essence we're not really disagreeing again. If Rote had half a dozen Proxays who were motivated by the old ic feud to destroy the Star Fraction - then we'd be in trouble!
I think I can safely say that the majority of RK's pilots (aside from FOVRA) much prefer to operate in null-sec and don't particularly care much for low-sec or high-sec wardec fighting. It usually takes a missioning carrier to spark an interest in roaming into Placid low-sec on most nights.
Yep, that certainly accords with my assessment also.
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Interesting to hear about SF's transition from Providence to Placid, I was a little curious about why you guys moved. I'd certainly be up for some ideology style interaction, getting a fix on practical applications of free space ideology within the Federal sector, figuring out how compatible Simon and the Star Fraction's visions of the future are, that sort of thing, when I get back home.
Good stuff Simon, hit us up in game and lets see where it goes - Placid is certainly proving and interesting environment ideologically that much is for sure.
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Thank you for the recount and story telling, quite entertaining as i didn't knew all the details, which coincidentally are a point of interest to the Gallente Militia members.
Moira was part of the GalMil group once, Rote Kapelle and Veto usually exchange fire with us and Rook and Kings just loves hotdropping onto our roaming fleets.....so in the end good to see how things panned out for your group of free captains.
No problems at all Bruno, as I said to Victoria I like to err on the side of telling the whole story so that anyone interested can brief themselves on current events. I do think it will leave Moira in an interesting position in the future should they opt to return to the federal militia one day certainly.
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Are we really still talking about this? >>
Not really, this is more of a overview.
Ohh, if only life were so easy...
It is when you skim through the walls of text. You can generally figure it out after the first sentence.
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Are we really still talking about this? >>
Not really, this is more of a overview.
Ohh, if only life were so easy...
It is when you skim through the walls of text. You can generally figure it out after the first sentence.
My original question is if we were seriously going to spend more time on this. And up there ^ people are still discussing it.
I can figure out the wall o' text, yeah, but that's hardly the point.
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It's a big forum guys. I'm pretty sure there isn't a limit on new forum topics. >.>
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My original question is if we were seriously going to spend more time on this. And up there ^ people are still discussing it.
I can figure out the wall o' text, yeah, but that's hardly the point.
Well I think the problem is in the royal "we" Seen Typhos. If you want to spend time discussing this you certainly can. If other people want to then they can. If you are not interested then nobody forces you even to open the thread! I think it would be sensible for people to be a little more accomodating and permissive of threads and subjects they are not personally-interested in.
That said, since this thread is about post-moira-conflict SF involvement in Placid maybe it is something you could usefully involve yourself in after all? I have noticed your organization flying around Intaki - perhaps you'd like to give your impressions of future possibilities and help us understand your roleplay angle a little more?
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Anyway, to the future! - Rouge Drones, contact me please lets see if we have any common enemies. I would be more than happy to pitch a campaign to the free captains to assist some persicuted AI's. Fits great with our RP, I -think- it would be or could atleast lead to some orginal content and tales to create. A lot of potential there. I'm keen.
The enemies would be I-RED/ILF. Since they try to capture people (and other stuff) from Intaki V.
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The enemies would be I-RED/ILF. Since they try to capture people (and other stuff) from Intaki V.
Damn, that might make it a harder sell to the free captains. But it does reinforce my character's sympathies! Does anyone know what is done with the people who are 'captured'? Perhaps its not so sinister as the Sansha kidnappings - I hope it is anyway, else it'd be a bit of a spanner in the works
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I sent a mail to Jade earlier, could be intresting to see how that unfolds, on the subject of rouge drones ide rather not go back to the days of huge IGS mud fights and slander hehe
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Just doing a drive-by, I skimmed the OP. Re; the tower--we had originally CTAed an alarm clock op to take the towers down, but with the extended downtime we kinda got shit on. A collective decision was made (or rather, I put my foot down) that fielding 60+ billion in capitals after a CCP patch/extended DT was the dumbest idea since Hitler invaded Russia and we opted to let it be. As it was during our first hit on your towers, a QUAM cynorapier landed on grid with us but was nuked before they managed to get the cyno up, so we were a little skittish. The idea that we might get counterdropped during a time when the server was likely going to be incredibly unstable just didn't appeal.
They only loss we suffered in the entire time we were faced off against SF was a single Falcon, the pilot of which was ridiculed and poked fun at for accidentally hitting his cyno generator in front of the POS and painting himself with a massive bullseye for SF POS gunners.
I swear that cyno shaved years off of my life. It went up 10km from me. Teamspeak went dead silent for about 10 seconds before anyone said anything, like we were all collectively holding our breath waiting to see what horrible blob of death and NC destruction was about to be dropped on our heads, but we all slowly started to realize there were no neutrals on grid anywhere.
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That said, since this thread is about post-moira-conflict SF involvement in Placid maybe it is something you could usefully involve yourself in after all? I have noticed your organization flying around Intaki - perhaps you'd like to give your impressions of future possibilities and help us understand your roleplay angle a little more?
Well now see, that's a a predicament. I believe ANSH already made their statement clear on the IGS about, three months ago. Economic stability is the name of the game. Besides the folks whose characters just complained about it, we got some actual interesting conversation from the ILF, so, that was fun. Of course the "economic hub" idea also got picked up by AISA, exactly one month later, with "Intaki" replaced by "Agoze." Which, if anything, was encouraging, sort of proved we had a good idea.
Then the RDS showed up, ILF stepped up their presence, IRED abandoned their towers, and now SF is making the scene. Basically my point is, possibility in Intaki-based roleplay is pretty sticky. Everyone and their mamma wants a piece of it these days. It makes it interesting, because there's more groups involved. But the interactions between these groups usually just end with people arguing over which group has more invisible control points over the system.
It'd be nice to see some real interaction between factions. Usually the most action I've seen is milita groups in 2v2 or 2v3 engagements that they brag about for months after. A negotiations meeting, some businesslike discussion, these things would be nice, and I'm still hoping someone will actually work towards the RP sphere instead of just trying to "win" the game of Intaki. Until then it's at least been amusing locking down the system with an Ishtar and a Rifter.
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Then the RDS showed up, ILF stepped up their presence, IRED abandoned their towers, and now SF is making the scene.
Proper term is moved. For the duration of the Militia Conflict.. they are back up.
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Then the RDS showed up, ILF stepped up their presence, IRED abandoned their towers, and now SF is making the scene.
Proper term is moved. For the duration of the Militia Conflict.. they are back up.
Very well, "moved" their towers.
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I really don't understand your point, Andreus. Are you saying that Star Fraction shouldn't wardec people if they want rp? Because I've seen scads of rp on the Minnie/Amarr FW front, the Caldari/Gallente FW front, between CVA and UK, between Blooders and Space Nuns, and other groups, including FEDRO's brief engagement with RIA. Or are you saying that they shouldn't declare victory? Because I've seen people rp that as well.
And of course, there are people who want to rp with the Star Fraction, as some of the responses in this thread (including my own) have shown. So maybe you're just saying they shouldn't win?
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They only loss we suffered in the entire time we were faced off against SF was a single Falcon, the pilot of which was ridiculed and poked fun at for accidentally hitting his cyno generator in front of the POS and painting himself with a massive bullseye for SF POS gunners.
I swear that cyno shaved years off of my life. It went up 10km from me. Teamspeak went dead silent for about 10 seconds before anyone said anything, like we were all collectively holding our breath waiting to see what horrible blob of death and NC destruction was about to be dropped on our heads, but we all slowly started to realize there were no neutrals on grid anywhere.
Just keeping you on your toes, darling <3
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To the mods. Note that this post in trying to underline a few topics and not delve into any rule-breaking territory or any 'urdoingitwrong' accusations. However by the very nature of the topic it can easily seem as such. I am trying to point out my viewpoints in some things, not to make any claim that anyone's stand-points are automatically flawed or wrong.
Having said that, in right, it's hard to speak of this and not delve into non-proper stuff. There are times I wish I was a better communicator.
I really can't be bothered. Someone would inevitably complain that my honesty constituted "trolling".
Fine. If you have a legitimate, relevant point, my view is there is always a polite way of saying it that will not be moderated. Making vague statements in what looks like bitter reference to those points is not usefully contributory to the thread and is more susceptible towards moderation and easier discrediting of the points you actually take the time to make.
I might be wrong, but it seems to me;
ChipMo wonders why Moira has gone silent and refuse to further interact with SF. I'm not in Moira so I can't answer this, but ChipMo's post was, in and of itself, a highly arrogant way of saying 'we won utterly, why won't they keep showing up to be ridiculed some more' he even stated that it was to be expected and still even that is was 'poor form'.
As I see it, SF has a history of making a IC mockery of their enemies, either the defeated ones who fade away or the ones that keep going with their ways. Either way, it would seem that if you are declared an enemy of SF you are awared no respect, at all. That Moira goes silent and refuse to interact with SF anymore is 'to be expected of the game' (other RP entities willfully ignore them and freeze them out of the RP 'community') and it's even poor form. Remaining silent and ignoring SF, denying them RP story material, is... poor form.
Veto Corporation's involvement is 'a footnote'. Now that SF has won, their involvement is ignorable. Verone made an admirable job speaking of the issue with Jade and to an extent SF's problems with the rest of the RP community. His statements are now a 'convinient coincidence' that ChipMo is 'skeptical' to while when Veto got involved Jade refused to accept Verone's help in fixing the OOC bridge to the rest of the game's RP'ers on the basis that Veto was now actively helping Moira and were thus dragged into the fight. Back then Veto's involvement mattered and made alot of reactions. Now, after SF has won... they are a footnote. Victory is achieved, history has been written, Moira has been accured of poor form for not adding much to that history and SF rolls on much as they have for years.
Considering all this I believe that Andreus' original point, as seen here;
The war with Moira, deeply dissapointing conclusion. Ok it's fairly widely accepted that we have won by whatever measures most people go by
but the RP has just stopped.
Take a long hard look at the attitude of the first quoted segment.
Then ask yourself - no, really, take a long hard look and ask yourself - are you truly surprised that people don't want to roleplay with you?
Is fully accurate. I can see why Moira may wish to shut their mouths and let SF move on in their merry way. I can't know for sure ofc, but I can hazard a guess.
Senn's claim that Andreus' statement is 'painfully ironic' seems to be that his character is very steadfast in his views and fully convinced he's in the right. That makes him somewhat arrogant and I'm assuming here the slight similarity between SF's hubris and Andreus' toon's hubris is what Senn's aiming for. I've no idea about andreus' reply however, I don't know much about Senn's toon or the player and can't comment.
*EDIT* Wonderful, half of what I replied to has been dragged to the catacombs. Incoming imminent ban-hammer, in 5, 4, 3...
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I really don't understand your point, Andreus. Are you saying that Star Fraction shouldn't wardec people if they want rp? Because I've seen scads of rp on the Minnie/Amarr FW front, the Caldari/Gallente FW front, between CVA and UK, between Blooders and Space Nuns, and other groups, including FEDRO's brief engagement with RIA. Or are you saying that they shouldn't declare victory? Because I've seen people rp that as well.
And of course, there are people who want to rp with the Star Fraction, as some of the responses in this thread (including my own) have shown. So maybe you're just saying they shouldn't win?
I think people are saying that being asshats about it (IC and OoC as the arrogance on display in several of the posts I've read here can attest to) isn't going to give people any incentive to bother interacting with SF. Arrogance and even OoC propaganda isn't conducive to any kind of RP friendly environment.
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Good analysis. Same feeling here. Maybe wrong though.
I had a few RP interactions with SF on the IGS. As much as my character had no problem at all doing so, me, the player, had. My character respects everyone capable of constructing an argument and will also find the discussion interesting if there is something to learn from it. That way, she have occasionnaly speaked here and there, but me, the player, am at least unconsciously trying to avoid SF on the IGS (the only place where I see them ICly anyway). Jade is a damn condescending character, but it is actually very interesting and the character has depth. What refrains me to actually look for further RP interaction is mainly the "wall of text" syndrome. I do not have enough amount of time to deal with that (I did it once in the Providence threadnaught, it was an experience, but it was terribly chronophage and gave me headaches, especially as its not done in my native language, so I might sometimes get the feeling I lose something like 20% of my intellectual capacity). And then, there are the rest of SF character sometimes found on the IGS. Very "trollish" in my experience, much like in local channel. Here it is not even me, but also my character that has absolutely no interest at all to get into that kind of interactions. Though I might note that I found Kleptoleme totally different from that, and very pleasant.
I don't want to make it feel like a "you are doing it wrong". It is just what has annoyed me the few times I had to deal with it.
Edit again : oh shit, I read the catacombs after, I am reacting over something that got moderated :/
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One thing I’m going to say again here so that everyone can understand is that this thread is in no way shape or form a place for people to tell Star Fraction we “are doing it wrong”. As you can probably tell from the many catacomb posts removed from this thread the moderation team here agree.
I’m not interested in hearing why particular people have a problem with star fraction here and as the backstage staff have affirmed on many occasions this is not a forum for the resolution of personal disputes between people with issues.
So Bloodbird – with respect can you please leave this kind of discussion for pm’s in the future? I could easily spend a thousand words answering the many inaccuracies in your last post but in doing so I’d be derailing my own thread and that would be silly.
I would be happy to set you straight on the precise happenings you mention but I do not believe it is appropriate material discussion for Backstage in general or for the context of this thread specifically – PM me if you want to continue this topic please.
And Lyn Farel – again I can appreciate you posted in good intention there but you are falling into the pattern of confrontational assessment “you are doing it wrong” that I think we want to avoid here at all costs.
I can appreciate that you as a player do not like dense in-character discussion but I’m not really looking to defend myself against such charges. I shrug and say if you like it by all means interact, if you don’t – then go do other things with my blessing also.
I believe in live and let live when it comes to roleplay and I’m very confident in my own ability to simply ignore anything that doesn’t bring me pleasure in eve roleplay.
Anyway, lets please draw a line under the disruption to this thread. It is not about whether people think Star Fraction roleplay is valid or not or whether we are doing it wrong. If people are genuinely upset and annoyed with us for any reason then please send me a PM and we’ll have that discussion in the appropriate venue and I’m going to ask as a favour right here and now that any of our detractors start doing this rather than responding to our threads on backstage in the future with offtopic and destructive posting.
What I’d like to concentrate on going forward is the positive and interesting contributions made by people in this thread:
Bruno Bonner, Victoria Stecker, Senn Typhos, John Revenent, Mammal Tafren, Misan, Simon Coal, Kaleigh, Chieftain, Bacchanalian and others managed to post positive and interesting responses to the thread without getting drawn into old boring arguments that have no place in public and that’s excellent!
I’m very interested in pursuing these discussions so let’s keep positive and on-topic and leave all the criticism of other people’s RP validity at the door okay?
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I sent a mail to Jade earlier, could be intresting to see how that unfolds, on the subject of rouge drones ide rather not go back to the days of huge IGS mud fights and slander hehe
I've had a pretty busy irl week this week Chieftan and haven't been too active in eve but I did receive the mail with interest and will reply ic this week, I can see some good options going forward and I'm quite excited at the possibilities for cooperation and progressive interaction in the placid region. I really like it when diplomacy is truly dynamic and people allow the roleplay interactions of their entities free reign rather than getting mired in old disputes (ooc or otherwise). Speaking personally on the SF and I-RED front - there are a lot of possibilities to be explored.
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Well now see, that's a a predicament. I believe ANSH already made their statement clear on the IGS about, three months ago. Economic stability is the name of the game. Besides the folks whose characters just complained about it, we got some actual interesting conversation from the ILF, so, that was fun. Of course the "economic hub" idea also got picked up by AISA, exactly one month later, with "Intaki" replaced by "Agoze." Which, if anything, was encouraging, sort of proved we had a good idea.
Well it is a good idea - developing low sec market hubs is pretty good stuff - I've always been impressed by the ILF production tower in intaki as well as an example of actually putting rp into space and doing what they say on the tin.
Then the RDS showed up, ILF stepped up their presence, IRED abandoned their towers, and now SF is making the scene. Basically my point is, possibility in Intaki-based roleplay is pretty sticky. Everyone and their mamma wants a piece of it these days. It makes it interesting, because there's more groups involved. But the interactions between these groups usually just end with people arguing over which group has more invisible control points over the system.
Well, we're not interested in such arguments - we'd definitely be interested in some actual commercially-progressive roleplay (ie making money with ideologically revelant schemes and undertakings) and we're happy to cooperate with other NRDS/freespace/independent-minded entities prepared to accept our hand of truce and work together and improve the profits and freedoms of all.
It'd be nice to see some real interaction between factions. Usually the most action I've seen is milita groups in 2v2 or 2v3 engagements that they brag about for months after. A negotiations meeting, some businesslike discussion, these things would be nice, and I'm still hoping someone will actually work towards the RP sphere instead of just trying to "win" the game of Intaki. Until then it's at least been amusing locking down the system with an Ishtar and a Rifter.
So lets make it happen. I've got to admit I got pretty bored with the militia politics of endless killmail bragging on the amarrian front also - by all means lets think about some better options.
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I really don't understand your point, Andreus. Are you saying that Star Fraction shouldn't wardec people if they want rp? Because I've seen scads of rp on the Minnie/Amarr FW front, the Caldari/Gallente FW front, between CVA and UK, between Blooders and Space Nuns, and other groups, including FEDRO's brief engagement with RIA. Or are you saying that they shouldn't declare victory? Because I've seen people rp that as well.
There might be a deeper point to consider there that could be discussed under the terms "why do RP wars create OOC drama?" but I'm not sure it could be hosted on backstage due to the generally flammable nature of this kind of thing. But even if we could have such a thread - it would be important to ensure it was a general discussion rather than based on specific involved entities otherwise the tendency to partizan name-calling would render the whole debate moot before it began. Perhaps its best just to acknowledge that "RP wars create Drama" because roleplayers are drama queens and leave it at that.
And of course, there are people who want to rp with the Star Fraction, as some of the responses in this thread (including my own) have shown. So maybe you're just saying they shouldn't win?
Lets concentrate on the positive and I'd like to focus entirely on those players who do want to roleplay with us going forwards. Sure I can acknowledge there are those that don't - but eve is big enough for us to go our own ways and not keep bumping heads pointlessly. I want Star Fraction to get involved with progressive open-minded roleplay partners and I believe it can enrich the gameplay of those players and our own. Lets talk about the good stuff now!
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BloodBird, I described Veto as a footnote as they were only ever refered to as an aside to Rote Kepelle. Since the fleets contained members from each. Certinly, Rote's involvement in this conflict was an important event in the war. I am only saying that whenever our pilots have talked about Veto it has really just been a tag along with Rote. Nothing more.
On the topic of ridiculing people in defeat thats just not true. Anyone who we agree formal terms with is always treated with the upmost respect. We have also accepted defeat on occation ourselfs. It is not such a ridiculus notion to accept you made a mistake, own up to it and move on. I think Sev3rance may fall into that catagory if you want to look it up. We also do not shy away from our defeats, they are woven into the tapastry of our characters as much as our victories.
Anyway, it doesn't matter what we do really, as this is how we craft our characters. I'm intrested in how Moira (Soter in particular) see's these events impact on his character. As I read the characters last comments on IGS he sounds quite insane. Now maybe I have underestimated his approch? Perhaps this is a new twist in his character?
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BloodBird, I described Veto as a footnote as they were only ever refered to as an aside to Rote Kepelle. Since the fleets contained members from each. Certinly, Rote's involvement in this conflict was an important event in the war. I am only saying that whenever our pilots have talked about Veto it has really just been a tag along with Rote. Nothing more.
Tends to be the case. The two alliances share FCing duties, and Rote tends to be more prone to wanting to nail SF, so we chase more when Rote's leadership are in command than when our own are.
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Not to be discounting the ongoing war with Moira. which is certainly continuing, but I'm actually quite intrigued to be involved with Intaki roleplay. I chose the race of my character fairly deliberately from the in-game writeups offered but then was quite grumpy at the lack of ongoing material to discover about it. So that's where I'm hopeful this goes, in terms of an ongoing roleplay manner.
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In response to the purpose of the OP, the what now question - you've taken Ostingele, a hotbed of piracy and partially driven out the pirate element.
Now you rule. Ostingele is a choke system between Intaki, Stacmon, Syndicate and Placid high-sec. There a many and various battles to be had over it and a number of rp stories being made just within a few jumps.
We like having you; stick around.
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I agree with Mammel.
I would like to see the area turned into a major free trade/space frontier, a place where the econemy can prosper under like minded IC ideals.
While many of you may see these events as the end of a campaign i would beg to differ, and go as far to say all this has potentialy been the start of somthing great.
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Well, we're not interested in such arguments - we'd definitely be interested in some actual commercially-progressive roleplay (ie making money with ideologically revelant schemes and undertakings) and we're happy to cooperate with other NRDS/freespace/independent-minded entities prepared to accept our hand of truce and work together and improve the profits and freedoms of all.
It'd be nice to see some real interaction between factions. Usually the most action I've seen is milita groups in 2v2 or 2v3 engagements that they brag about for months after. A negotiations meeting, some businesslike discussion, these things would be nice, and I'm still hoping someone will actually work towards the RP sphere instead of just trying to "win" the game of Intaki. Until then it's at least been amusing locking down the system with an Ishtar and a Rifter.
So lets make it happen. I've got to admit I got pretty bored with the militia politics of endless killmail bragging on the amarrian front also - by all means lets think about some better options.
See that's good to hear. I feel there's a lot of untapped potential in Intaki-based RP. There's a reason people are drawn to it, it forces together cultures, nations, organizations and individuals who otherwise wouldn't even speak to one another. Yes, it causes conflict, but I think by and large, RP interaction stems from conflicts - groups collaborating against other groups, two groups at war, you get the idea.
The problem is that for all the time people spend saying that they're RPing something in Intaki, I've yet to see any real result. ILF's tower made the news, that was a plus. But so far it seems that the people interested in making RP roads in Intaki will start something up, say they'll go through with it, and then let it slowly degrade into something that literally only occurred in invisible IC terms. I'm not suggesting IC fluff isn't good, it's a necessary part of EVE. But basing conflicts solely on that, I think, just snowballs into the aforementioned "invisible control points" scheme.
Admittedly, there's already the problem of the militias and the facwar system making it a point of contention between Federation/State loyalist RPers. They're each going to cling to the types of victories CCP will allow them to have, but that really doesn't make an impressive display.
My point is, I think interaction between characters should be more than a game of "yes I did, no you didn't." ANSH has been working for that for a few months, and we'll continue working for it. I'm just hoping that SF and the other entities moving into Placid don't make the same mistakes. It's all well and good to gesture on the IGS and add to the RP immersion, but that stuff is supposed to be the veneer OVER the actual interaction - at least in my mind. You don't add to the mix by taking quips on the IGS to be equivalent to successes in the game.
Of course that really isn't up to me, it's up to the other entities moving into Placid. So, here's hoping. Based on past experiences, I can't say I'm optimistic, but, I'm never optimistic, so lets just see what happens.
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Would you mind clarifying what you mean here, Senn?
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Have avoided posting in this thread so far. Would have preferred to keep it that way, but oh well:
The 'TLDR' I walked away with from Senn's post:
People start things in space in Viriette, and then due to a number of factors, they go silent/die out/whatever. However, people continue to claim that x, y and z are happening there.
I'll be honest, I haven't had the time or bandwidth to be active in-space around Intaki in person recently, so things may have changed in the last two weeks:
When AI moved into Placid, things were pretty damn quiet, we could idle in Intaki for hours and see bugger all ILF/IRED/Other people claiming to have a foothold there. This changed when we started making noise. Things were good.
However, I do not think you could claim that Intaki had a thriving market. I recall someone denying there was an economic crises (http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1824/kimjongintaki.jpg) there at one point. Seeding a lowsec area with goods is great. Marking them up 15-20% over regional average, in an area that doesn't see much market activity in general is not.
Soter's Agoze hub has worked wonders, as the stuff that's being seeded is selling *below* regional averages. The volumes my orders have been shifting on a regional basis have nearly doubled since it set up, although that may be a coincidence.
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Sorry just to clarify, with the Kim Jong-Il pic, are you saying that the Placid economy is struggling (which has always been the official ILF line) or that it isn't? (The line many Federals have argued)
I'm not the ILF business guy, I take care of the other side of things, but why is marking things 15% above average 'not good' intrinsically? Everything that the ILF puts on the market sells. Everything. In fact, we have difficulty keeping up with demand, especially in certain high demand items. I can't say I fully understand your critique.
As for our lack of appearance in Intaki, many of our active pilots are AU TZ. For my part, I never see you guys either.
The ILF's major claims in Intaki RP are:
1) Stimulating the Economy - A verifiable claim, even if you don't like the way we're doing it. We move massive amounts of ships and mods.
2) Being anti-pirate - Another verifiable claim. Our killboard backs this up.
3) Politically lobbying for an Intaki Free State - Something that has no in-game allegory, so can only be done in words. I'm not sure how you can begrudge us that.
I summary, while I wasn't sure Senn's critique was aimed at us (I guess so, now) I'm not sure it's justified. Having lived in Intaki for quite some time now, I feel a lot more qualified to comment on the goings on there than most.
Also, apologies to the OPer for derail, but there's an extent to which this goes to SF's Placid operations and context for Placid as a whole.
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Have avoided posting in this thread so far. Would have preferred to keep it that way, but oh well:
The 'TLDR' I walked away with from Senn's post:
People start things in space in Viriette, and then due to a number of factors, they go silent/die out/whatever. However, people continue to claim that x, y and z are happening there.
I'll be honest, I haven't had the time or bandwidth to be active in-space around Intaki in person recently, so things may have changed in the last two weeks:
When AI moved into Placid, things were pretty damn quiet, we could idle in Intaki for hours and see bugger all ILF/IRED/Other people claiming to have a foothold there. This changed when we started making noise. Things were good.
However, I do not think you could claim that Intaki had a thriving market. I recall someone denying there was an economic crises (http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1824/kimjongintaki.jpg) there at one point. Seeding a lowsec area with goods is great. Marking them up 15-20% over regional average, in an area that doesn't see much market activity in general is not.
Soter's Agoze hub has worked wonders, as the stuff that's being seeded is selling *below* regional averages. The volumes my orders have been shifting on a regional basis have nearly doubled since it set up, although that may be a coincidence.
I-RED moved out of Intaki when AI moved in, we were in Delve/Querious.. then Black Rise during that time. As for Intaki Market I am sure its thriving for the area now since Intaki now sees 20-50+ in local most times of the day.
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The Kim Jong-Il Picture was in reference to something an individual said a while ago which popped up on IRC the other night, I found it amusing.
I wasn't making a jab at the ILF specifically, A number of groups that operate in Viriette do this. heck, AI are probably guilty of it to a degree. However, I'll address your points:
1) I am a regular on the Placid Regional Market, you might shift huge amounts of ships and mods, but they shift significantly more slowly than anywhere else in the region. Who buys a Brutix for 25mISK when they can get one for 21mISK two jumps away? Heck, who buys a Brutix for 25mISK? Your market efficiency in relation to the rest of Placid is horrendous.
2) I don't really want to start on Killboards, because it will inevitably turn into a pissing match, and I don't want to see that happen.
3) I don't really take issue with this. My main gripe is with people saying they're doing things ingame when they evidently aren't, Although this is *less* of an issue now than it was two months ago.
Also in regards to last bit: Split topic for a general Placid thread?
I-RED moved out of Intaki when AI moved in, we were in Delve/Querious.. then Black Rise during that time. As for Intaki Market I am sure its thriving for the area now since Intaki now sees 20-50+ in local most times of the day.
I don't feel raw local count is relevant. Give me a demographic and a breakdown of who's in local for how long and what they're actually doing, and you might have something. I regularly work the regional market in Placid and see no evidence of a 'thriving' Intaki market. perhaps our definitions of the word are different.
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1) I am a regular on the Placid Regional Market, you might shift huge amounts of ships and mods, but they shift significantly more slowly than anywhere else in the region. Who buys a Brutix for 25mISK when they can get one for 21mISK two jumps away? Heck, who buys a Brutix for 25mISK? Your market efficiency in relation to the rest of Placid is horrendous.
We sell mods and ships in Heyd for 30%-120% above regional average when items 1-5 jumps away are cheaper, and thus far have made 4billion isk profit. The people who have the isk will spend it instead of going 1 jump to get a cheaper item if they can buy everything in the one station instead of jumping system to system.. even more so in lowsec. aka the lazy people with plump wallets, I am sure the ILF are making enough off I-RED pilots alone (I have to jump in 2-3 billion isk in mods just to keep up with needs.)
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We sell mods and ships in Heyd for 30%-120% above regional average when items 1-5 jumps away are cheaper, and thus far have made 4billion isk profit. The people who have the isk will spend it instead of going 1 jump to get a cheaper item if they can buy everything in the one station instead of jumping system to system.. even more so in lowsec. aka the lazy people with plump wallets, I am sure the ILF are making enough off I-RED pilots alone (I have to jump in 2-3 billion isk in mods just to keep up with needs.)
Two Things:
-Heydieles is not Placid.
-I am citing what I can actually see. If the ILF make a killing on private markets, fair enough, but they're not doing well in relation the rest of Placid on the open one.
Ninja Edit: Can we get a split for this? Feel like I'm derailing Jade's thread.
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Two Things:
-Heydieles is not Placid.
-I am citing what I can actually see if the ILF make a killing on private markets, fair enough, but they're not doing well in relation the rest of Placid on the open one.
- Heyd was an example of how a market will react to inflated prices.
- They are not doing well based on your point of view fair enough.
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@ Milo
I'm actually very comfortable with this discussion in my thread actually. Its exactly the sort of thing I wanted to see here, ideas and discussion on the future involvement in Placid and its already giving me some interesting thoughts ...
Please carry on.
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1) I am a regular on the Placid Regional Market, you might shift huge amounts of ships and mods, but they shift significantly more slowly than anywhere else in the region. Who buys a Brutix for 25mISK when they can get one for 21mISK two jumps away? Heck, who buys a Brutix for 25mISK? Your market efficiency in relation to the rest of Placid is horrendous.
When you say a regular, do you mean you sell on the market or you buy from the market?
What matters is profit over time.
If you make more profit (quantity) over a period of time for a similar time investment, then that is a superior option. As Mr Revenent pointed out, it doesn't matter if it is less competitively priced - what matters is that there are people who will buy it where it is being offered in order to save time.
I don't feel raw local count is relevant. Give me a demographic and a breakdown of who's in local for how long and what they're actually doing, and you might have something. I regularly work the regional market in Placid and see no evidence of a 'thriving' Intaki market. perhaps our definitions of the word are different.
I suggest an analysis of regional sale volumes of a wide spectrum of products as a possible measure of market improvement.
For local count, if regularly repeated readings over time show a generally increasing trend, the information may have greater relevance.
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When you say a regular, do you mean you sell on the market or you buy from the market?
I buy and sell. I don't manufacture my own goods, but there's lots of ISK to be made through both long and short-term investment on a large scale in pretty much any region.
What matters is profit over time... ...order to save time.
Yes, that was my point. The volumes shifted over say- a month in Intaki are not what I would call a symptom of a 'thriving' local market.
I suggest an analysis of regional sale volumes of a wide spectrum of products as a possible measure of market improvement.
For local count, if regularly repeated readings over time show a generally increasing trend, the information may have greater relevance.
Would be up for a collaborative effort here. If anyone is interested in making this happen, PM me? I don't have the time to do it alone at the second. :)
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Is the Intaki market thriving? To be honest its a matter of perspective and interpretation.
Here's my perspective YMMV: When I started playing (it'll be 5 years next month) I flew out to Intaki and got podded. Undaunted, I returned to see what was up with my "homeworld." There basically wasn't anything there but pirates.
The stations had practically zero economy. Aside from a few seeded items, there was nothing for sale in the system. If you wanted to buy anything in Placid you had to go Stacmon. And making the trip from Intaki to Stacmon and back was almost a suicide run due to gate camps in Ostingele.
It was then that I decided I wanted to do something about the situation. At that time there were basically two options: join Placid Reborn and wave the banner of the Federation while waiting patiently for the senate to remember us or joine INTAKI UNION and try to burn down everything in space.
I was pretty sure that there had to be a better way and founded the ILF. That was about 4.5 years ago now and I am very proud of what we've accomplished.Do we rival Jita? Hell no. I'll grant that we don't even rival the smallest of high sec trade hubs.
People say you need to back up your RP with your actions in space. Our tower is an example of that. It's a factory and produces the bulk of the ships and mods that we sell in Intaki. It's not something we made up to get "secret control points." It's there and you can go and see it. I mean, it's been attacked three times in the last year, so somebody sure the hell knows it there.
To be honest, I don't oversee the day to day operations of either the factory or the trade hub (I'm smart enough to know that I'm not smart enough to make it work) but I do see the spreadsheet and I've watched our wallet grow. We've made 5 times more money in the last year than we did in the first three years combined. And it continues to improve.
That's success to me.
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People say you need to back up your RP with your actions in space. Our tower is an example of that. It's a factory and produces the bulk of the ships and mods that we sell in Intaki. It's not something we made up to get "secret control points." It's there and you can go and see it. I mean, it's been attacked three times in the last year, so somebody sure the hell knows it there.
To be honest, I don't oversee the day to day operations of either the factory or the trade hub (I'm smart enough to know that I'm not smart enough to make it work) but I do see the spreadsheet and I've watched our wallet grow. We've made 5 times more money in the last year than we did in the first three years combined. And it continues to improve.
That's success to me.
In my view it's an admirable effort that shows clear qualitative improvement. However, for the observer, it may be beneficial to provide quantitative data too - i.e. what is your say, weekly or monthly sales volume? What is your gross weekly or monthly profit? 100m isk? 1b isk? More? Those are figures that would be of much use for the observer.
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I found this information (http://eve-tools.org/tradeHubs.html?region=Placid&sorting=BY_MARKET_VALUE&Submit=Submit+Query) quite interesting with regards to trade throughout the cluster.
While it by no means offers the full picture it at least provides some insight into the current ISK value of live market orders available in various systems.
If we look at the Placid region we see Intaki is ranked eighth in the Placid region in order of "market offers value". It ranks fifth if you take away the highsec systems of Orvolle, Osmeden and Stacmon which I would expect to dominate the Placid market due to location and sec status.
What I find particularly interesting, in light of this discussion, is that the Agoze system doesn't appear in the rankings list at all. This surprises me because traffic data from Dotlan shows the amount of people passing through Agoze (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Agoze/stats) is so much higher than Intaki (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Intaki/stats).
Whether this is due to the concerted efforts of groups like the IPI to proactively seed the market with products or not, I don't know, but I suppose the higher prices in Intaki would explain this to a point. Even so with the efforts of Moira in Agoze and the anecdotal evidence from Milo I'd have expected Agoze to appear somewhere on the list.
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Would you mind clarifying what you mean here, Senn?
Man, being on the US time table sucks... everyone's already had a huge discussion by the time I wake up. T.T
To save you time and because don't nobody like walls of text, I'll try to bullet the problems:
+ No one agrees on what Intaki looks like. This could have been a simple issue of PR being spun in different ways, much like actual countries will be portrayed in different ways by allies, enemies, etc. The problem is that since Intaki isn't a real place, we can't ask a teenager to take some cell phone pictures to prove who's right. So instead, we're separated into two camps; the people who think a system with a 0.1 sec status, constant contention between militias, a heavy pirate presence, an uninhabitable equator and a clash of cultures would have a degree of economic difficulty, and those who think Intaki has no problems at all.
+ Everyone wants Intaki. If you take a quick head count of the groups fighting over Intaki, you'll probably be counting past your fingers. Again, this could have been a cool factor. The problem is that each of these groups has the potential to say that they have real influence in the system. Because CCP has no method for us to gauge control, other than the broken facwar system, we're once again back to the invisible magic of 100% IC events. This means that the richness of Intaki is relegated to all these parties just insisting that they're "winning."
+ People don't like effort. I will be the first to say that making a hub out of Agoze, even a small one, will be a show of the EVE RP player base's ability. My hope with Senn's IC address (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1478566) was to draw attention to the challenge that could come with attempting to turn a lowsec system into a real hub. But I'm fully aware that to defibrillate Intaki would take an immense effort, and most people will shy away from a monumental task that may be met with failure.
Now none of these problems puts an instant stake through the heart of Intaki-based RP. I think that seeing the IC venom people are willing to spit over Intaki proves that it's a worthy battlefield for willing RPers. The thing that will kill Intaki, and the thing that will discourage people from throwing their hat into the ring, is complacency. Setting up a tower, winning one victory over an enemy militia, managing to sell one ship - these things are good singular events, but we shouldn't be satisfied with singular events.
So ANSH is digging in, and I sincerely hope someone else takes the opportunity as well. Of course if we could all avoid ridiculous claims of taking over the whole northern hemisphere of Intaki, destroying a station which is still there in-game, controlling an army of unwilling mind slaves (unless you're a toaster), or secretly deploying nuclear devices in Intaki Prime's crust to set off every volcanic outlet and destroy the planet... etc. That would be great too.
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+ People don't like effort. I will be the first to say that making a hub out of Agoze, even a small one, will be a show of the EVE (People who care about Intaki) RP player base's ability. My hope with Senn's IC address (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1478566) was to draw attention to the challenge that could come with attempting to turn a lowsec system into a real hub. But I'm fully aware that to defibrillate Intaki would take an immense effort, and most people will shy away from a monumental task that may be met with failure.
Fixed that for you in bold. I would think it misleading to suggest that the development of a hub in a place like intaki should be the concern of uninvolved factions, and should not be used as a measure of their 'ability' in trade. The Amarr and Ammatar that I know have managed multiple trading operations that would dwarf this project in terms of complexity and effort.
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+ People don't like effort. I will be the first to say that making a hub out of Agoze, even a small one, will be a show of the EVE (People who care about Intaki) RP player base's ability. My hope with Senn's IC address (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1478566) was to draw attention to the challenge that could come with attempting to turn a lowsec system into a real hub. But I'm fully aware that to defibrillate Intaki would take an immense effort, and most people will shy away from a monumental task that may be met with failure.
Fixed that for you in bold. I would think it misleading to suggest that the development of a hub in a place like intaki should be the concern of uninvolved factions, and should not be used as a measure of their 'ability' in trade. The Amarr and Ammatar that I know have managed multiple trading operations that would dwarf this project in terms of complexity and effort.
Would have thought that'd be obvious, but, yes, to clarify, you have to care about Intaki to care about it.
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People say you need to back up your RP with your actions in space. Our tower is an example of that. It's a factory and produces the bulk of the ships and mods that we sell in Intaki. It's not something we made up to get "secret control points." It's there and you can go and see it. I mean, it's been attacked three times in the last year, so somebody sure the hell knows it there.
To be honest, I don't oversee the day to day operations of either the factory or the trade hub (I'm smart enough to know that I'm not smart enough to make it work) but I do see the spreadsheet and I've watched our wallet grow. We've made 5 times more money in the last year than we did in the first three years combined. And it continues to improve.
That's success to me.
And I for one really like your play here. When I first came to Intaki scouting 3 months ago and found that Starbase doing exactly what your RP propaganda said you were doing I felt quite rush for pride for a fellow RP'er in this game. It felt positive and actual and a place where RP touched the real server.
If that place gets hit by bad guys I can forsee us being alongside you defending it. And thats excellent development whichever way you look at it.
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You guys should shoot up Caldari militia that are trying to take Intaki (again). Heth dogs, fascist, invading Russian/Chinese people etc.
Also, farce that Intaki is even on the CONCORD map etc.
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+ Everyone wants Intaki. If you take a quick head count of the groups fighting over Intaki, you'll probably be counting past your fingers. Again, this could have been a cool factor. The problem is that each of these groups has the potential to say that they have real influence in the system. Because CCP has no method for us to gauge control, other than the broken facwar system, we're once again back to the invisible magic of 100% IC events. This means that the richness of Intaki is relegated to all these parties just insisting that they're "winning."
I recall CCP at Fanfest during the lowsec roundtable discussion suggesting some form of deployable "thing" that would indicate a system being somehow tied to a particular corporation or alliance. A formal declaration that the system is the operation theatre for the corp or alliance in question. There would be some actual ingame benefits to using one of these deployables and I suppose the closest thing they could be compared to would be the territorial claim units used to claim systems in nullsec.
+ People don't like effort. I will be the first to say that making a hub out of Agoze, even a small one, will be a show of the EVE (People who care about Intaki) RP player base's ability. My hope with Senn's IC address (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1478566) was to draw attention to the challenge that could come with attempting to turn a lowsec system into a real hub. But I'm fully aware that to defibrillate Intaki would take an immense effort, and most people will shy away from a monumental task that may be met with failure.
Fixed that for you in bold. I would think it misleading to suggest that the development of a hub in a place like intaki should be the concern of uninvolved factions, and should not be used as a measure of their 'ability' in trade. The Amarr and Ammatar that I know have managed multiple trading operations that would dwarf this project in terms of complexity and effort.
Would have thought that'd be obvious, but, yes, to clarify, you have to care about Intaki to care about it.
And I think here we have the real reason Intaki's market will outperform that of Agoze. It's Intaki.
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+ Everyone wants Intaki. If you take a quick head count of the groups fighting over Intaki, you'll probably be counting past your fingers. Again, this could have been a cool factor. The problem is that each of these groups has the potential to say that they have real influence in the system. Because CCP has no method for us to gauge control, other than the broken facwar system, we're once again back to the invisible magic of 100% IC events. This means that the richness of Intaki is relegated to all these parties just insisting that they're "winning."
There is actually a simpler way to look at these things Senn. If you want to say that you have influence over intaki and X group does not then effectively slaughtering them in space and making it impossible for them to operate there is probably the way to go forwards. ILF have towers, I imagine I-RED will have towers, --- SF certainly has a share of these things elsewhere in Placid. Our campaign against Moira was considered successfully when we pushed them from Pelille and blew up their tower HQ. These things can happen in space.
Alternatively - you might plan economic assaults by trying to occupy all non-tower manufacturing slots and removing manufacturing towers. By gate-camping and blowing people up, hell even by wardeccing and fighting a war of domination everywhere.
I think its sometimes easy to overcomplicate these things. Thinking back on past SF campaigns there are times when we've clearly "won" (gained influence/driven out enemies) and have come to be the dominant force in an area ---> Mito, Stacmon,Amarr, Tama, Arzad, Kamela, etc etc, and times when things haven't gone so well and campaigns couldn't be considered successfully concluded. Often you just need to look at whether people are able to continue their ordinary affairs and chosen business in the debated system. IF (as in the case of Kamela for example - the 24th crusade went from having 30-50 active players round the clock in system and camping the station 24/7 to having a presence of 1-2 lonely cloakers 2 months later, you know you are having an impact).
Intaki is a fascinating area I think - but to impact ILF you'd need to blow up their tower. To impact I-RED you'd need to be significantly hurting their fleet capability or otherwise doing something serious in space. I'd say if (for example) a bunch of Amarrians arrived and wanted to put up a slave-processing plant then by establishing an Amarrian POS tower and naming their silos "intaki citizenry 1/2/3 they'd be providing the ideal in for RP interaction and some good fighting possibility also.
From SF's point of view at this point we want to get involved and to promote the agenda of free-space commerce amongst those invested with Intaki roleplay. How we do that is still open to question - but we've got resources to allocate, propaganda to do and no doubt more enemies to fight and I think its interesting already how many potential avenues are becoming apparent through discussions in this thread!
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Valid, at the end of the day, blobbing is one way to get what you want.
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blobbing
It could be. I've certainly seen cases where that is true. It seems, though, that you are referencing SF tactically though and, on that score, I'm not sure what you mean by blobbing particularly. The bulk of SF day-to-day operations is in the 10-and-under set. Depending on timezones, it can be significantly in the "under" side of things. We can muster higher numbers, certainly, but the bulk of our engagements are much smaller than what we would muster for a tower defense (as an example).
The typical way we get our objectives accomplished is by recruiting tenacious players. Arousing the interest of SF members usually will take the form of a campaign after a couple of weeks of regular interaction and may then continue until we've had our fill of the engagement, which, historically, can take quite some time. The targets of these campaigns usually just don't maintain the stamina for that sort of engagement.
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blobbing
It could be. I've certainly seen cases where that is true. It seems, though, that you are referencing SF tactically though and, on that score, I'm not sure what you mean by blobbing particularly. The bulk of SF day-to-day operations is in the 10-and-under set. Depending on timezones, it can be significantly in the "under" side of things. We can muster higher numbers, certainly, but the bulk of our engagements are much smaller than what we would muster for a tower defense (as an example).
The typical way we get our objectives accomplished is by recruiting tenacious players. Arousing the interest of SF members usually will take the form of a campaign after a couple of weeks of regular interaction and may then continue until we've had our fill of the engagement, which, historically, can take quite some time. The targets of these campaigns usually just don't maintain the stamina for that sort of engagement.
Couple of points:
1. I'm aware that roughly 74% of what I say is sarcastic, but the aforementioned statement was part of the other 26%. It's an entirely valid tactic to send as many war dogs as you can into one area and deny your opponent their assets, mobility, combat potential and morale. In fact, it's an excellent tactic, and it's worked for centuries.
2. I've never dealt with SF in any sense, other than two instances of minor IC banter on the IGS. So I'm not speaking on your methods of achieving your objectives. In fact, I've never even seen you on the field. My comment wasn't an implication regarding your combat ability, just a general statement.
3. I don't know of a force in Placid other than the militias who would be willing to tangle in 10-ship prowling parties for any length of time. I've heard rumors of PL, Agony, other such entities mulling around in Placid, but I haven't seen them personally, nor do I believe they would waste ammunition engaging an RP force. So while I can't speak on your combat tactics, if you subscribe to 10-man roams, you're probably going to see not a lot of action.
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all these parties just insisting that they're "winning."
Well I can say I-RED is not "winning" anything, just enjoying ourselves by being wedged in between the heating up Militia conflict in Intaki.
I imagine I-RED will have towers
Setup 5 already in Intaki alone, another dozen elsewhere. To promote infrastructure.
Intaki is a fascinating area I think - but to impact ILF you'd need to blow up their tower. To impact I-RED you'd need to be significantly hurting their fleet capability or otherwise doing something serious in space.
From SF's point of view at this point we want to get involved and to promote the agenda of free-space commerce amongst those invested with Intaki roleplay. How we do that is still open to question - but we've got resources to allocate, propaganda to do and no doubt more enemies to fight and I think its interesting already how many potential avenues are becoming apparent through discussions in this thread!
I am going to enjoy SF here.
From I-RED's point of view we are here to promote Ishukone's efforts. Defend their escorts (rawr wars over NPC haulers.) Work with people to keep trade-lanes open and stimulate free-trade. I would not say people are fighting over Intaki. We all have our own views on what Intaki should be and that is what makes the RP more dynamic.
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Couple of points: 1. I'm aware that roughly 74% of what I say is sarcastic, but the aforementioned statement was part of the other 26%. It's an entirely valid tactic to send as many war dogs as you can into one area and deny your opponent their assets, mobility, combat potential and morale. In fact, it's an excellent tactic, and it's worked for centuries.
I think with us its more a case that we acknowledge war is usually won by the side that cares more and you help your membership to care more by moving to the target zone as a group and living there rather than simply launching raids and roams etc.
2. I've never dealt with SF in any sense, other than two instances of minor IC banter on the IGS. So I'm not speaking on your methods of achieving your objectives. In fact, I've never even seen you on the field. My comment wasn't an implication regarding your combat ability, just a general statement.
Fair enough really.
3. I don't know of a force in Placid other than the militias who would be willing to tangle in 10-ship prowling parties for any length of time. I've heard rumors of PL, Agony, other such entities mulling around in Placid, but I haven't seen them personally, nor do I believe they would waste ammunition engaging an RP force. So while I can't speak on your combat tactics, if you subscribe to 10-man roams, you're probably going to see not a lot of action.
Funnily enough I've seen an awful lot of pirate groups that are operating fleets every bit capable of engaging a 10 man party. Our problem if anything has been how to scale up to engage the larger allied pirate groups that call in friends for anything over 4-5 man groups. Muppet Ninjas, Quam, Unicorns, Session Change, random russians, + of course the gcc friendly caldari militia entities - all have pretty large groups that come through placid looking for trouble.
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[mod]Another friendly reminder that people should report posts they find objectionable rather than respond to them.[/mod]
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This might be a little off topic, or it might not.
That was an epic wall of text recounting recent events. The thing is, the people who care about said events (or find them interesting) have been paying attention and already know what happened, and the people who don't are going to see a massive wall of text and look away. Condense that down to one or two paragraphs - perhaps with a link to the more detailed version you put on IGS. I know you love your historical recaps, but this one's hardly going to be read because everyone either already knows what happened or doesn't care.
I had no idea about this and didn't care when I clicked on the topic but found the original post quite interesting and well written.
It's a pity others don't put as much effort into creating these sort of narratives.
Edit: Having read the entire thread, I have to say it's an interesting from a historical perspective as well. I'm not even sure where Intaki is and didn't know that at some point IRED thought it was important.
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Trudat.
Jade gets trolled alot for his wall-o-text campaign reports, but his writing was a big factor in my being positively receptive when we were approached about joining up with them. He paints a hell of a picture; would be nice to see something out of that camp again soon - Jade still posts here so I have to assume -SF- is still active...
Just hopefully not in Solitude. I have no interest in dealing with Titan bridged fleet hotdrops (hilarious on the giving end, wtfstahp on the receiving end). Amarr militia boys fucking hated that shit! :lol:
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I, for one, didn't know all of what was going on, and I was happy to read about them. There's bias, of course, but I like to think I'm good at filtering that out as I read something, I'm not so deathly afraid of it as some seem to be. Somewhat biased info is better than silence.
I would point out though, to all the sides trying to make events out to look like they're 'winning' (just about everyone), you're doing yourselves a disservice. The side that loses things for an ideology, who sacrifices and stumbles, is a story in my mind, sparks my imagination. 'The Glory of your Organization' and waving the flag bore the hell out of me, and if a story is what you're trying to tell, one should remain cognizant of this.
EVE, and it's storytellers and listeners, are usually not the 'Hooray the Heroes win' type of audience.
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It's a pity others don't put as much effort into creating these sort of narratives.
I agree completely. I miss the old SF and Jade's campaign narratives.
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Yeah, this is actually cool, and the sort of propaganda stuff I really want to get my corp into.
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Damned good point, Graelyn. I remember when I had my blog up (btw, found the backups of the dbs, will have all that stuff back online Soon™ and try to fix all the links to blog posts), I was rarely psyched enough after taking a loss to do a write-up about it, but the excitement and tension of those few posts, to my mind, was generally a superior narrative to the posts about victories that I/we had. Partly because I'd feel self-conscious of coming off too self-aggrandizing, whereas when writing of defeat I could lay it out a bit more cleanly and openly.
Nobody (generally) likes to point out or highlight their stumbles, but I think if more people did so in well-written narrative it could do nothing but improve the state of the game and the overall RP scene by creating more humanly-relatable characterizations for those of us who're into that sort of thing to enjoy with one another.
In the absence of that sort of honesty in propaganda, however, (and Jade himself never hesitated to use the P word about those campaign reports, so I expect he shouldn't be insulted by my using it here), the bigger the better! Feed me moar epic battles to read about while I spin my ships in :bitter: mode, motivate me to go shoot someone in the face and then RP about it again :D
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Thanks.
I say that, of course, after years and years of doing the opposite. :lol:
Hindsight shows a lot. AM peaked when the Theology Council/Amarr Navy dread-dropped our towers. All the successful campaigns and 'Amarr Victors' before that were background at best.
Propaganda in public gets fierce, of course. Every side wants to show others what they put so much effort into. Making it the center of your organization's narrative, however, is a monumental waste of energy, and a mistake I would encourage the newer generations not to repeat.
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provoking conversation two years after the fact. Awesome \o/
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Edit: Having read the entire thread, I have to say it's an interesting from a historical perspective as well. I'm not even sure where Intaki is and didn't know that at some point IRED thought it was important.
We still think Intaki is very important and operate the majority of the POCO's there at 0% tax rate. IPI have been picking the slack since we redeployed to Syndicate, but we are in contact incase help is needed etc.
Intaki is like 3 jumps from Stacmon in lowsec btw.