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[Tiberious Thessalonia]

My take on it was always "Look, I don't care about what you get up to in your private time.  I don't care if you are gay.  But you had better damn well get married and pop out the children anyways, even if you don't enjoy the whole process"

[orange]

I'll just have to agree to disagree on the issue. That last paragraph you quoted seems completely off base to me, but that's fine - people interpret things in different ways.

Except you don't have to even do that.  Source explicitly states that our previous arguments for why homosexuality in the State is not at issue (flaunting differences is) is false.

My perspective on the topic in 2010 (page 1 & page 2 of the thread) have been retconned as entirely inaccurate.

And it is not "fine" in an community roleplay setting for people to interpret things differently.  In your interpretation, characters like Katrina are breaking laws (and regulations).  In my interpretation, if those characters keep their personal lives personal, no one gives a fuck.

Clearly articulating that same-sex marriage is illegal within corporate borders (without explanation mind you) establishes that a nominal Caldari patriot (small patriot) like Katrina would have to go to the Federation to be officially married.

My take on it was always "Look, I don't care about what you get up to in your private time.  I don't care if you are gay.  But you had better damn well get married and pop out the children anyways, even if you don't enjoy the whole process"

Ties in with the whole "Trillions of Federals, billions of State citizens" thing - if population count is a cause for worry to the point where artificial [conception] is used, NOT doing your recreational duties for the State would likely be frowned on.

This is predicated on traditional conception being the most effective means of producing children, which it is not.   I do not think the TubeChild program was the beginning of artificial pregnancy,  I think it add the creation of parent-less children.

For example, in the Federation, I can see children being grown in artificial wombs in order to free the mother to do whatever it is she wants to do.  In the State, it frees the mother to continue being a productive member of society.

I think it is fair to detach the act of romantic/pleasurable/recreational sex from the conception of children in both Federal and State societies.

[Lyn Farel]

You missed my point by a mile.

Could you elaborate then?

The old interpretation most of us had before was just that small deviances are fine, as long as they are not flaunted in public. It means that the State society is not against homosexuality per se (though you will probably find as many homophobes as in the Amarr Empire, or even other factions I believe), but that it doesn't fit any standard in said society : it holds no existence, and adds nothing of value.

You can take or not the japanese analogy here, which is that flaunting your sexual experiments in public is not a decent nor a polite thing to do in a civilized society. As long as you keep it in privare, people will faint not to have heard of it, and that out of pure politeness too. In feudal times, it guests were sometimes recieved in very poor houses, where the guest could hear all about a couple (husband + wife) arguments all over the place for exemple, and he would faint not to hear it even if it takes place 5m away from him. It's the polite thing to do.

In State mentality, flaunting about your own difference here is the real issue. Completely opposed to the gallente society where parading in public and showing how different and special snowflaky you are, in Caldari society it's viewed as individualist, selfish, and self centered. And you can bet that most Caldari will frown drastically at any show of any individual thinking of the individual before the community.

Homosexuality in that regard was not even a problem, the same way you were not supposed to flaunt about your heterosexuality where it doesn't belong. It's self centered too after all. Especially with programs like tube children, where heterosexuality loses most meaning since children are produced outside families and raised in crèches.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

I was specifically referring to the Amarr, Orange, whom I think would find the idea of creating people out of whole cloth to be actually abhorrent.

[Gaven Lok ri]

I would also expect that in Amarr its about power relationships. Fully expect that they see a lot of casual sexual abuse of slaves/servants/lower classes with little regard to gender binaries.

As for the "have kids anyways" argument, it seems likely to me that it would vary massively depending on societal rank and position in family. I expect that norms would vary massively depending on exactly what class you are in.

[Jikahr]

You missed my point by a mile.

Could you elaborate then?

The old interpretation most of us had before was just that small deviances are fine, as long as they are not flaunted in public. It means that the State society is not against homosexuality per se (though you will probably find as many homophobes as in the Amarr Empire, or even other factions I believe), but that it doesn't fit any standard in said society : it holds no existence, and adds nothing of value.

You can take or not the japanese analogy here, which is that flaunting your sexual experiments in public is not a decent nor a polite thing to do in a civilized society. As long as you keep it in privare, people will faint not to have heard of it, and that out of pure politeness too. In feudal times, it guests were sometimes recieved in very poor houses, where the guest could hear all about a couple (husband + wife) arguments all over the place for exemple, and he would faint not to hear it even if it takes place 5m away from him. It's the polite thing to do.

In State mentality, flaunting about your own difference here is the real issue. Completely opposed to the gallente society where parading in public and showing how different and special snowflaky you are, in Caldari society it's viewed as individualist, selfish, and self centered. And you can bet that most Caldari will frown drastically at any show of any individual thinking of the individual before the community.

Homosexuality in that regard was not even a problem, the same way you were not supposed to flaunt about your heterosexuality where it doesn't belong. It's self centered too after all. Especially with programs like tube children, where heterosexuality loses most meaning since children are produced outside families and raised in crèches.

Okay, thanks for the explanation Lyn.

I still contend that the Caldari State is a Fascist government. ("Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the fusion of state and corporate powers" -Mussolini.) However as you and Purple pointed out, it's not the homosexuality, but the flaunting of individuality that is the main issue here.

The Spartans of Ancient Greece were an authoritarian government that not only accepted homosexuality, but encouraged it. They thought that if you were in love with the man beside you, then you would fight harder to protect him in battle.

As far as Fascism and homosexuality is concerned, the word 'Fascism' originally comes from a bundle of sticks. The lesson taught to children was that one stick (or 'faggot') by itself was weak, and could be easily broken. However many sticks together could not be broken if they were tightly bound (Bundle of sticks = 'Fasces'. Tying them in a bundle = 'Fascinating' the sticks).

Senior students in British boarding schools once had a tradition of initiating first year students by bullying them into becoming de facto slaves. Since the new students were not yet accepted as part of the group, they were still the loose and fragile sticks, 'faggots'.

"Comply or be broken, small stick."

The word in North America somehow degenerated from it's original meaning of 'wimp', to mean 'homosexual'. In Britain, the word 'faggot' still applies to a small stick, or as slang for a cigarette.

Oh, and I should point out that when you say 'faint' you probably meant to say 'feign'. To faint is to lose consciousness, to feign is to fake an emotion or physical condition. When spoken, they do sound almost identical in pronunciation.

[purple]

You're not wrong about the Caldari being corporatist.  I think you've got idea down, but most people see the word and assume it's means the same thing as Corporatocracy or being pro-corporatization when it doesn't.   

I'm not really sure it can be argued that the State isn't fascist (since that's such a hard to define thing) but many see corporatism and mistake it for corporatocracy and erroneously jump to the conclusion that a tenet of fascism is corporatocracy, the Caldari are ruled by corporations and are therefore fascist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_group_%28sociology%29

A corporate group is a general term that describes two or more individuals, usually in the form of a family, clan, organization, or company. A major distinction between different political cultures is whether they believe the individual is the basic unit of their society, in which case they are individualistic, or whether corporate groups are the basic unit of their society, in which case they are corporatist.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

Corporatism (also known as corporativism[1]) is the socio-political organization of a society by major interest groups, or corporate groups, such as agricultural, business, ethnic, labour, military, patronage, or scientific affiliations, on the basis of common interests.[2]

From the 1850s onward progressive corporatism developed in response to classical liberalism and Marxism.[5] These corporatists supported providing group rights to members of the middle classes and working classes in order to secure cooperation among the classes.[5] This was in opposition to the Marxist conception of class conflict.[5] By the 1870s and 1880s, corporatism experienced a revival in Europe with the creation of workers' unions that were committed to negotiations with employers.[5]

Kinship-based corporatism emphasizing clan, ethnic, and family identification has been a common phenomenon in Africa, Asia, and Latin America.[7] Confucian societies based upon families and clans in East Asia and Southeast Asia have been considered types of corporatism.[7] China has strong elements of clan corporatism in its society involving legal norms concerning family relations.[12] Islamic societies often have strong clan that forms the basis for a community-based corporatist society

Christian corporatism is traced to the New Testament of the Bible in I Corinthians 12:12-31 where Paul of Tarsus discusses an organic form of politics and society where all people and components are united functionally, like the human body.[13]

In social psychology and biology, researchers have found the presence of corporate group social organization amongst animal species.[8] Research has shown that penguins are known to reside in densely populated corporate breeding colonies.[8]

[Katrina Oniseki]

Clearly articulating that same-sex marriage is illegal within corporate borders (without explanation mind you) establishes that a nominal Caldari patriot (small patriot) like Katrina would have to go to the Federation to be officially married.

She did. She holds a Federation marriage licence to Erys Charantes. She is registered as unmarried and single in the Caldari State, because if you're not dating or married to the opposite sex, you're single. End of story. The State won't recognize her relationship with Erys, and neither party feels the need to pressure the other about it.

In my viewpoint, she lives in a comfortable political and legal safety-bubble by way of being a capsuleer. The State can't go after her, and would be much better served working with her in the traditional contractor relationship they usually utilize with Capsuleers. Who she fucks isn't a big deal as long as she plays ball, which she does as much as a capsuleer can be expected to, but only BECAUSE she is a capsuleer.

She similarly has no activist need or desire to get legal recognition for same-sex relationships. It's not a big deal to her, and she knows her place well enough not to make waves about it.

[Jikahr]

You're not wrong about the Caldari being corporatist.  I think you've got idea down, but most people see the word and assume it's means the same thing as Corporatocracy or being pro-corporatization when it doesn't.   

I'm not really sure it can be argued that the State isn't fascist (since that's such a hard to define thing) but many see corporatism and mistake it for corporatocracy and erroneously jump to the conclusion that a tenet of fascism is corporatocracy, the Caldari are ruled by corporations and are therefore fascist.

It does seem that we disagree on the semantics here.

When I refer to 'Corporate', I don't mean to parse terms such as 'corporatism' and 'corporatocracy'. I don't think of something like an ant hill or a bee hive as being a 'corporation', nor do I think that a corporation is a naturally occurring structure.

When I say 'Corporation', I am referring to the legal entity where a company has the same rights under the law as a person does.

I can see your point about how the word 'Fascism' can be difficult to define. The original meaning has been distorted from being an intellectually respectable political position, and has now become a blanket insult for authority. The fact that Fascist Governments are usually run by charismatic narcissistic psychotics, and are thus inherently a reflection of the minds of their own inconsistent and deranged leader doesn't help much either.

According to this Wikipedia entry, the Caldari state certainly seems to have many of the components of a Fascist state.

"Fascism (/fæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2](sic)

Fascists sought to unify their nation through an authoritarian state that promoted the mass mobilization of the national community[6][7]

Characterized by having leadership that initiated a revolutionary political movement aiming to reorganize the nation along principles according to fascist ideology.

[8] Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism.

Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation,[6][9][10][11] and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.[12]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

If you don't think the word 'Fascist' is a true descriptor for Caldari State, I suppose I could use the word 'Authoritarian' or 'Totalitarian' instead.

The Corporation (as a legal entity), is in itself a Totalitarian institution. When we belong to a corporation, we do not get to vote for the board of directors, or choose the CEO. We are told when to show up for work, when to leave, what to do, how much we will be paid, etc. It is a rigid hierarchy where the only options are either compliance or punishment/ dismissal.

Considering the history of the PF, why wouldn't the Caldari naturally gravitate towards Authoritarianism? After all, it was their ideological differences that made them break away from the Democracy loving Gallenteans in the first place.

If you wanted to be the opposite of a Gallente in order to distinguish yourself from them, how would you do that? Well, what is the opposite of Democracy?

[Morwen Lagann]

I don't really claim to follow or know tons about Caldari RP stuff, but I'd say that "fascist" worked as a descriptor for the State in the six or so years from the launch of Empyrean Age right up to the point where Tibus Heth and the Provists fell from power, but not a moment longer.

With the CEP back in control, I think another word would be better.

[Jikahr]

I would also expect that in Amarr its about power relationships. Fully expect that they see a lot of casual sexual abuse of slaves/servants/lower classes with little regard to gender binaries.

As for the "have kids anyways" argument, it seems likely to me that it would vary massively depending on societal rank and position in family. I expect that norms would vary massively depending on exactly what class you are in.

This was certainly the case in Ancient Rome, or any other slave owning societies.

I am wondering how the Amarrians would feel about the use of slave brothels for the 'entertainment' of the troops? The use of Korean 'comfort women' by the Japanese, or the female prisoners assigned to the 'Joy Division' by the Nazis for example?

I know many Amarrians (myself included) like to portray the Amarrian religion as a reflection of Paulist Christianity. 'Sex is evil, lust is evil, the flesh is weak', and so on. However, these professed values have seldom prevented Crusaders, soldiers, etc. from raping and enslaving women when they had the chance, even if they had to beg forgiveness (or face a court martial) for doing so.

[Jikahr]

I don't really claim to follow or know tons about Caldari RP stuff, but I'd say that "fascist" worked as a descriptor for the State in the six or so years from the launch of Empyrean Age right up to the point where Tibus Heth and the Provists fell from power, but not a moment longer.

With the CEP back in control, I think another word would be better.

Well, Tibus Heth would have certainly been the charismatic leader that Fascism gravitates around.

If you want a new descriptor, perhaps 'Inverted Totalitarianism' would work better?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

EDIT: Whoops, I missed this one. I suppose Purple was right. The Caldari state is a Corporatocracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy

[Lyn Farel]

I think that inverted totalitarianism is a fundamental descriptor of the Gallente Federation. I didn't know this term had been coined, that's a rather nice word for gallente society which fits perfectly imo.

I would also expect that in Amarr its about power relationships. Fully expect that they see a lot of casual sexual abuse of slaves/servants/lower classes with little regard to gender binaries.

As for the "have kids anyways" argument, it seems likely to me that it would vary massively depending on societal rank and position in family. I expect that norms would vary massively depending on exactly what class you are in.

This was certainly the case in Ancient Rome, or any other slave owning societies.

I am wondering how the Amarrians would feel about the use of slave brothels for the 'entertainment' of the troops? The use of Korean 'comfort women' by the Japanese, or the female prisoners assigned to the 'Joy Division' by the Nazis for example?

I know many Amarrians (myself included) like to portray the Amarrian religion as a reflection of Paulist Christianity. 'Sex is evil, lust is evil, the flesh is weak', and so on. However, these professed values have seldom prevented Crusaders, soldiers, etc. from raping and enslaving women when they had the chance, even if they had to beg forgiveness (or face a court martial) for doing so.

The thing is, I am not sure that Amarrians reflect Paulist values to begin with. They probably are very prude about sexuality of course, but sex being evil and the flesh being weak ? I have yet to find clues about that in the PF tbh.

[Jikahr]

I think that inverted totalitarianism is a fundamental descriptor of the Gallente Federation. I didn't know this term had been coined, that's a rather nice word for gallente society which fits perfectly imo.

Why Gallente and not Caldari? I tend to think of Gallente society as being somewhat utopian. Androids instead of slaves, women in skimpy costumes, George Jetson and so on. Mind you, I would only be hearing about Gallente society through Amarrian Empire propaganda, so I wouldn't have an accurate picture.

Even utopia has a dark side though. Dostoyevsky had a science fiction story (if you want to call it that) about a glittering tower where humans had solved every problem, except for boredom of course. With nothing to do and nothing to fear or anticipate, the residents of the glittering tower deliberately dismantled their own civilization. Without strife of some sort, life serves no purpose.

Gallente society as being a totalitarian democracy? Tyranny of the masses perhaps? Rule of the average (hu)man, where exceptional people are kept down and bled dry so the parasites and the freeloaders can have it easy?

I do think that life in any of the four major empires is designed to be intolerable, to encourage you to leave high sec.

I would also expect that in Amarr its about power relationships. Fully expect that they see a lot of casual sexual abuse of slaves/servants/lower classes with little regard to gender binaries.

As for the "have kids anyways" argument, it seems likely to me that it would vary massively depending on societal rank and position in family. I expect that norms would vary massively depending on exactly what class you are in.

This was certainly the case in Ancient Rome, or any other slave owning societies.

I am wondering how the Amarrians would feel about the use of slave brothels for the 'entertainment' of the troops? The use of Korean 'comfort women' by the Japanese, or the female prisoners assigned to the 'Joy Division' by the Nazis for example?

I know many Amarrians (myself included) like to portray the Amarrian religion as a reflection of Paulist Christianity. 'Sex is evil, lust is evil, the flesh is weak', and so on. However, these professed values have seldom prevented Crusaders, soldiers, etc. from raping and enslaving women when they had the chance, even if they had to beg forgiveness (or face a court martial) for doing so.

The thing is, I am not sure that Amarrians reflect Paulist values to begin with. They probably are very prude about sexuality of course, but sex being evil and the flesh being weak ? I have yet to find clues about that in the PF tbh.

Well, we do know that the Amarr consider flesh to be sacred. I don't think this only applies to Emperors, because in one hauling mission we are told that genetically altered cattle are also considered a sacrilege to the Amarr.

The Amarrians also have a hierarchical society where rank is passed down through the family, so it is important to be 'well bred'. You don't want to dilute your bloodline by sewing your wild oats into a 'lesser being'. Even the slaves are released according to what generation they are. A 12 generation slave that had a child with a sixth generation slave would likely never see their children again.

Sure, the Amarrians would have the technology of birth control, but what would the 'Space Catholics' think about the spiritual implications of using it? We know that the Amarrians don't have a problem with abortion (at least when it comes to breeding Kameria soldiers).

Most capsuleers are probably sterile anyways, considering the radiation hazards they are exposed to in space, as well as missiles, bullets, etc.. Of course, anything which applies to the Empires doesn't apply to the capsuleers, who are a breed apart.

When I say the 'flesh is weak', I mean that as a metaphor. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." The mind says 'Do this!' The body says 'But I am lazy/ tired/ horny/ scared/ hungry.' True for me, true for you, true for everybody.

I would argue that this is pretty much a reflection of human, or even biological nature. We need to get up early, but we hit the snooze button one more time. We have to watch what we eat, but we want that delicious fattening pastry. We have to study for the exam, but the Star Trek marathon just came on, and so forth.

Yes, it would be incorrect to say that the Amarrian religion is 'Paulist', since it is not Christian at all. However, that does reflect the stereotype that many Amarrian roleplayers seem to have about the Amarrian religion. Maybe this is because we don't really have anything to compare it with, other than what we are already familiar with (or a grotesque parody of it anyways).

 The fire and brimstone bully pulpit just seems to be more fun to roleplay than a Mother Theresa do-gooder figure, especially if your idea of fun in EVE is undocking in a warship and heading into battle eager to kill someone.

Religion in most cases seems to entail exercising some sort of personal restraint. Christians abstain from pre-marital sex, Jews abstain from pork, Muslims abstain from alcohol for example. If a positive aspect could be derived from this, I would have to say it is the development of willpower. The person who can overcome their lust today can conquer their fear tomorrow. The mind is the master of the body, not the other way around.

[Lyn Farel]

Because it's the antithesis of Caldari State. While it is true that most of their citizens are commodified and exploited to extremes it seems to me that the fact that in Gallente society where corporations are the actual players behind the veil, trumping politics, and where citizens are kept happy by giving them the illusion of individual liberties, bread and circus games, and overall are giving away their rights in exchange of excessive consumerism and sensationalism.

Which fits the Gallente Federation at 200%. The big difference lies in the fact that Caldari citizens are taught to behave collectively without any thought for individuality, are taught to be very industrious people precisely because they believe in it, to support their 'fascist' state to a point of national pride and devotion, while gallente citizen defend opposite values, but ultimately fall under a covertly accepted pact where they just mind their own individualistic business and selfish needs to let the way free to their true groups of interests, namely, corporations and private interests acting as lobbies (lobbies were always described as a fundamental facet of gallente society and politics). Which will then use and manipulate public opinion through indirect means.

Which is the difference between totalitarianism where everything benefits the state, and everyone serves the state (Caldari), sometimes exploited and commodified by the state willingly, and inverted totalitarianism where everything benefits private interests and corporate lobbies, and everyone serves them indirectly without even being aware of it, or just not caring because manipulated into submission through other means than brute ideological force.

In short, commodified citizens considered as cogs (totalitarianism) or commodities (inverted) is common to both systems, that both are totalitarian in a way. It's only the result and the tools they use, but the way they do it are radically opposed. One is direct, the other completely indirect, and more subtle about it.