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[Lyn Farel]

Take it for what it is but I don't think it's a good way to react negatively to that just because it's contentious IRL and seen negatively by our little internet postmodern world. If we start to cry out loud that it's CCP being stupid for implementing something like that in the lore, then let's take a look at everything similar that colours negatively every faction. Slavery, etc, among others.

As others have said above it is what generates interesting drama and conflict or morality. Don't let it get the better of you, it's IC, not OOC.

[Samira Kernher]

Take it for what it is but I don't think it's a good way to react negatively to that just because it's contentious IRL and seen negatively by our little internet postmodern world. If we start to cry out loud that it's CCP being stupid for implementing something like that in the lore, then let's take a look at everything similar that colours negatively every faction. Slavery, etc, among others.

As others have said above it is what generates interesting drama and conflict or morality. Don't let it get the better of you, it's IC, not OOC.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

[Jace]

Isn't that what half of us have been saying for, well, years now? Even before Source.

[Lyn Farel]

Some have been saying that for TEA, for which I disagree. I don't feel that homophobic culture in the lore is uninteresting, to the contrary. But TEA was cheesy.

[Jace]

I'm not talking about a specific piece of pre-Source lore, here.

I just do not understand the pre-defensive posture that has reared its head around this issue. Why are people trying to justify accepting Source confirming what many of us gleaned from the lore in the first place? It doesn't need justification or footnotes. It was widely accepted that some form of sexual traditionalism existed in the State prior to Source; we just didn't have clarification on what form it took. Now we do - in the simple form of same-sex marriage not being legal. It is merely an addition to the past mentions we've had surrounding Kaikka Peunato and so forth.

Nobody has asked for long-time Caldari roleplayers to suddenly change their characters. The community accepted a long time ago that they were going to interpret State PF a specific way and that is not going to suddenly change. There is no need to walk on eggshells about discussing the PF, because nobody is promoting the notion that everyone somehow change what they have been doing for years.

[orange]

I just do not understand the pre-defensive posture that has reared its head around this issue. Why are people trying to justify accepting Source confirming what many of us gleaned from the lore in the first place? It doesn't need justification or footnotes. It was widely accepted that some form of sexual traditionalism existed in the State prior to Source; we just didn't have clarification on what form it took. Now we do - in the simple form of same-sex marriage not being legal. It is merely an addition to the past mentions we've had surrounding Kaikka Peunato and so forth.

Some of us did not interpret it as a form of sexual traditionalism.  To some of us, a Caldari flaunting their embrace of the a particular religion or philosophy outside the norm is on the same caliber of breaking with tradition as choosing a same-sex mate.  For that matter, a Caldari flaunting that she is married to a particularly attractive Deteis in comparison to her workmates might be considered outside of Caldari norms.

The greatest Caldari sin is to flaunt your differences.     You can be different, you just have to bring attention to how you are the same as the others and avoid making a point of your differences from the aggregate.  Polite Caldari (and to not be polite is to different) will deliberately not notice. 

At least as long as you aren't forcing them to notice, like Kaikka Peunato did.  His squad-mates and superiors probably all knew he was gay long before he made his revelation.   Having grown up in Caldari culture he'd know what would happen once he came out publicly - and thus mostly like had plans to defect to the Guristas long before hand.

[Jace]

I'll just have to agree to disagree on the issue. That last paragraph you quoted seems completely off base to me, but that's fine - people interpret things in different ways.

[Jikahr]

The greatest Caldari sin is to flaunt your differences.     You can be different, you just have to bring attention to how you are the same as the others and avoid making a point of your differences from the aggregate.  Polite Caldari (and to not be polite is to different) will deliberately not notice. 

At least as long as you aren't forcing them to notice, like Kaikka Peunato did.  His squad-mates and superiors probably all knew he was gay long before he made his revelation.   Having grown up in Caldari culture he'd know what would happen once he came out publicly - and thus mostly like had plans to defect to the Guristas long before hand.

[/quote]

This certainly makes sense in a conformist Fascist society, which is what the Caldari state is.

For example, in the Fascist state of Nazi Germany, there were openly homosexual men such as Ernst Rohm at the highest levels, but in the cut-throat environment of political ladder climbing your opponents will always look for an excuse, any excuse, to get rid of you. The nail that sticks out gets hammered down, so homosexuality became another one of the convenient excuses the Nazis had to get rid of someone.

Interestingly, during the age of exploration on Earth, most Pirates such as Jack Sparrow would have probably been gay, at least according to one theory. If you can't practice your lifestyle in the Royal British Navy, simply kill your officers and become an independent entity as a Pirate crew. After all, why pledge your allegiance to a state that condemns your sexuality?

This does make me wonder about homosexuality and the Amarr society. I would imagine the attitude is similar to the Caldari. Homosexuality is taboo, but it certainly still exists.

[Mizhara]

This does make me wonder about homosexuality and the Amarr society. I would imagine the attitude is similar to the Caldari. Homosexuality is taboo, but it certainly still exists.

"Pray away the gay" or "Ya'll motherfuckers need Jesus!" I wonder?

[purple]

The greatest Caldari sin is to flaunt your differences.     You can be different, you just have to bring attention to how you are the same as the others and avoid making a point of your differences from the aggregate.  Polite Caldari (and to not be polite is to different) will deliberately not notice. 

At least as long as you aren't forcing them to notice, like Kaikka Peunato did.  His squad-mates and superiors probably all knew he was gay long before he made his revelation.   Having grown up in Caldari culture he'd know what would happen once he came out publicly - and thus mostly like had plans to defect to the Guristas long before hand.

This certainly makes sense in a conformist Fascist society, which is what the Caldari state is.

For example, in the Fascist state of Nazi Germany, there were openly homosexual men such as Ernst Rohm at the highest levels, but in the cut-throat environment of political ladder climbing your opponents will always look for an excuse, any excuse, to get rid of you. The nail that sticks out gets hammered down, so homosexuality became another one of the convenient excuses the Nazis had to get rid of someone.

Interestingly, during the age of exploration on Earth, most Pirates such as Jack Sparrow would have probably been gay, at least according to one theory. If you can't practice your lifestyle in the Royal British Navy, simply kill your officers and become an independent entity as a Pirate crew. After all, why pledge your allegiance to a state that condemns your sexuality?

This does make me wonder about homosexuality and the Amarr society. I would imagine the attitude is similar to the Caldari. Homosexuality is taboo, but it certainly still exists.
[/quote]

You missed my point by a mile.

[Jikahr]

You missed my point by a mile.

Could you elaborate then?

[Elmund Egivand]

This does make me wonder about homosexuality and the Amarr society. I would imagine the attitude is similar to the Caldari. Homosexuality is taboo, but it certainly still exists.

"Pray away the gay" or "Ya'll motherfuckers need Jesus!" I wonder?

This is Amarr. It's 'put you in the slave mine and beat the gay out of you while preaching about Jesus'.

[Jikahr]

This does make me wonder about homosexuality and the Amarr society. I would imagine the attitude is similar to the Caldari. Homosexuality is taboo, but it certainly still exists.

"Pray away the gay" or "Ya'll motherfuckers need Jesus!" I wonder?

This is Amarr. It's 'put you in the slave mine and beat the gay out of you while preaching about Jesus'.

Yes, except of course there is no 'Jesus' in the Amarr religion.

Also, what if you are a heterosexual male slave that gets purchased by a (secretly) gay Holder?

I don't mean to conflate homosexuality with pedophilia, but I think there was an instance from the PF about an Amarrian that molested slave boys. 

[Morwen Lagann]

That was Karsoth, the usurper Chamberlain. Not really a good example, since pretty much everything he did was just yet another excuse from :tonyg: for him to be twirling a moustache, or for the reader to not like him. It was designed to make people mad, and the parallel between that and the ongoing scandals within the Church irl that aided in that design was pretty blatant.

There is only one other mention of homosexuality in Amarr PF (ignoring the drug-fuelled spacelesbian orgies of Jamyl in T1, also a :tonyg: thing) was in a chronicle, and while it was confirmed by the author that a character in the chronicle happened to be gay, it was never, ever made clear whether it was that he was gay that made his interest an issue, or whether it was simply that he was a priest and the object of his intended affections was a slave.

To date, the Caldari State is the only entity where any sort of taboo is explicitly stated as being present. Since it's a pretty big issue, the lack of mention implies to me that it isn't taboo in the Empire, Kingdom or Mandate. What I would imagine to be taboo, or at least considered inappropriate, is (excessive) public displays of affection regardless of who's involved or their genders. You want to hold hands in public while out on a date, probably not an issue. Just don't start making out in the town square.

[Louella Dougans]

Amarr attitude would be far more related to the social positions of the persons involved.

Holder & Holder involved in a homosexual relationship? Shrug, as long as there's no politics involved, and there is a proper heir in place for the Holding.

Holder & Commoner ? Don't you think you should concentrate on producing an heir, master ?

Holder & Slave ? Unthinkable ! The Family will seek to replace that Holder as soon as possible.

Commoner & Commoner ? Someone's not getting invited to the next church ice cream social.

Commoner & Slave ? Excuse me, but what do you think you are doing with the Holder's property ?

Slave & Slave ?

[spoiler]

Proximo: Those giraffes you sold me, they won't mate. They just walk around, eating, and not mating. You sold me... queer giraffes. I want my money back.

[/spoiler]