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Author Topic: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?  (Read 42978 times)

Louella Dougans

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #165 on: 08 Dec 2018, 09:22 »

I missed something when I read the devblog.

So, you need to have an inspace structure to declare a war, as well as be eligible to be declared upon.

And if the defenders kill the attacker's structure(s), then the war ends.

So, what this bit does, is that it gives the defenders in a war a mechanism to force a non-consensual end to the war.

That's new, isn't it ? Previously, the ball was always in the attacker's court, and it was solely up to them if the war continued or not.

So is that not a good change ?
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Mizhara

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #166 on: 08 Dec 2018, 10:23 »

When the war can't be declared in the first place, there's nothing to end. More importantly, think any war targets are going to be able to chase down every little hidden structure the aggressors have? Some random POCO somewhere, a back-up structure in a wormhole, maybe pay for blue with Goons and drop a Citadel within Fortress Delve or whatever the fuck? Hell, make it a Fortizar somewhere and see how many war targets are willing to even be on grid with it at any point.

The number is likely zero.

The supposed problem is that wars chase people out of the game (Unproven hypothesis, most likely far from that simple and part of a far more complex problem to solve) and attaching structures to that doesn't change that one bit. In fact, you think anyone who pussies out of Eve over a wardec is going to form up no less than three times on a grid controlled by the enemy, with structure support, at a time decided by the enemy and quite likely not even the only structure needed to be taken down? They won't even undock because the war exists, much less take on the enemy where they're strongest.

The solution isn't tying it to structures, which is a fucking moronic idea to begin with. The solution lies in providing counter-play and incentives to be active during a war. Imagine the war between me and ARC if there'd been an 'end the war through activity' type mechanic in play.

I scout and chase ARC... well okay SFRIM people 99% of the time but let's call it ARC for now... people around, hunting and occasionally killing them. This is undesirable to them, so they organize, knowing that if they... say Mine X Amount Of Moon Goo, or collect Y Amount Of NPC Bounties or Explore Z Amount Of Sites or Produce So And So Much Value And Manage To Trade It and whateverthefuckelse bears do with their time the war will end because of the mechanic that says "aggressor incapable of pursuing an effective path towards their victory conditions, war declared unsuccessful, defender now have X weeks of war immunity from those involved in this war" or something. They succeeded in this since they organized, scouted and watched their aggressors, coordinated their bearing and maybe even defended it and so on.

Same thing on the offensive side with war goal mechanics in play. Declare war, mechanics look at aggressor and defender and determines some upper and lower bounds, then the aggressor gets to set some war goals like "X amount of destroyed structures, Y amount/value of destroyed ships" and so on. Upon successful completion of the objectives, war is declared won/lost and those involved can't be at war again for a certain amount of time. Add some reward mechanics to both sides for succeeding in attacking/defending (whether it's through fighting or successfully remaining active while avoiding losses) to incentivize activity and you are starting to get somewhere.

It'd ensure that the only way for it to become a forever war would be if both sides remained inactive, and the best way to end the wars would be to be active. One way or another. It'd encourage coming together as a group and it wouldn't be so incredibly easily cheesed as 'toss random structures around where they're incredibly hard to find' and so on.

I wonder how many people are going to forget to tick that "automatically refuse structure transfers" thing. I bet there's going to be a bunch of people finding out they suddenly own property in WHs and other hard to reach places, making them wardec eligible anyway.

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Jocca Quinn

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #167 on: 08 Dec 2018, 11:22 »

I think this discussion is getting heated simply because "war dec" covers a huge variety of actions. There are the small RP wars which most people in here see and which are probably NOT causing any issue to people (the odd individual maybe). Through the Jita pipe camping mass war dec spamming mercenaries to the absolutely downright nasty "we are going to hell camp you until you quit the game" infinite dec's.

Coming up with a solution to cover all of these won't be easy. Miz mentions some clever ideas in the post above this but honestly (wearing my bitter vet hat) there is NO WAY I can see CCP managing to develop / code something with that amount of subtlety and complexity.

I really hope that this is a stop gap measure as even the massive carebear that I am can see the holes / exploits available when things are tied to structures.

Honestly I think they should have just pulled war dec's (maybe leave the option of mutual ones) altogether until they had a better solution.
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #168 on: 08 Dec 2018, 11:22 »

So is that not a good change ?

No, it's not, because it's tied to the structures bullshit. A means for defenders to end the war through their own efforts was needed, but this is not the way.
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #169 on: 08 Dec 2018, 11:47 »

I wonder how many people are going to forget to tick that "automatically refuse structure transfers" thing. I bet there's going to be a bunch of people finding out they suddenly own property in WHs and other hard to reach places, making them wardec eligible anyway.

Quote
This setting will default to the “reject structure transfers” state for all corporations on patch day.

okay.
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Mizhara

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #170 on: 08 Dec 2018, 12:40 »

okay.

Yeah, because people haven't played with settings and forgotten to unfuck them before. I mean, it's not like the biggest battles in Eve history and entire Keepstars and shit has gone tits over arse because someone cocked up a setting entirely on their own.
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Norrin Ellis

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #171 on: 08 Dec 2018, 16:49 »

Throughout EVE's long history, every change CCP has made has elicited this response from some group of players:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

The pendulum will swing soon enough.
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Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #172 on: 08 Dec 2018, 17:08 »

Am I the only one who doesn't think this change matters much? You can already escape wardec mechanics by going to an NPC corp, which is basically the same thing as being in a player corp without structures. Now you just get to keep a few amenities when wardec immune. Whoopdedoo?

Tying eligibility to structures is whatever. It makes little difference, really. Most groups worth deccing have them. Some groups like wars and will put some up just to participate, as PIE has. Baby seals maybe won't, but where's the fun in clubbing them anyway? Now your opponents needs to have some money and be willing to risk it. Not much has changed.
« Last Edit: 08 Dec 2018, 17:25 by Aldrith Shutaq »
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Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #173 on: 08 Dec 2018, 17:09 »

Woops, double post.
« Last Edit: 08 Dec 2018, 17:12 by Aldrith Shutaq »
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kalaratiri

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #174 on: 08 Dec 2018, 19:39 »

Am I the only one who doesn't think this change matters much? You can already escape wardec mechanics by going to an NPC corp, which is basically the same thing as being in a player corp without structures.

I agree with this. As I mentioned before, the people wanting to avoid wars were already doing it.
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"Eve roleplayers scare me." - The Mittani

Silas Vitalia

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #175 on: 08 Dec 2018, 21:08 »

If the goal of this is to prevent people from picking on newer/inexperienced players there's probably a better way to do it than to tie it to in-game resources. 

This system lets super-old players who don't want to be wardecced get out of being wardecced, which is a thing you shouldn't be able to do in EVE.

In fact if you are a super old player you shouldn't even go back to an NPC corp at any point in time.

They need a better way to slowly get new people used to all of these things with a titrated system of danger until they are fully vulnerable like everyone else. 

Something like
NPC corp invulnrable from all decs
NPC facwar light corp only at war with other npc facwar light corp (red vs blue for starter ships or whatever in a few kiddie-pool systems with free ship replacements and a tiny constellation to learn about gates and jumping and fighting)
Off you go to join rest of cluster after that



 
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Norrin Ellis

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #176 on: 08 Dec 2018, 21:51 »

This system lets super-old players who don't want to be wardecced get out of being wardecced, which is a thing you shouldn't be able to do in EVE.

In fact if you are a super old player you shouldn't even go back to an NPC corp at any point in time.

They need a better way to slowly get new people used to all of these things with a titrated system of danger until they are fully vulnerable like everyone else. 

You basically just made the argument that people should be forced to play the way you want them to play.

Sorry, but the rest of us pay our subscription dollars, too.  If other people want to pay for my game, they can tell me how I should play the game, but I don't see that day on the horizon, so folks who think I should have to be griefed to enjoy some shiny space pixels can kiss my ass.
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Mizhara

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #177 on: 09 Dec 2018, 03:28 »

"What the fuck man, your piece just took mine."   "... yes, it's chess."    "But I just want to much about with my white pieces!"    "... it's chess."    "I play the game how I want to!"   "Still chess."    "Griefer!"
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #178 on: 09 Dec 2018, 04:00 »

"What the fuck man, your piece just took mine."   "... yes, it's chess."    "But I just want to much about with my white pieces!"    "... it's chess."    "I play the game how I want to!"   "Still chess."    "Griefer!"

and you complain about other people making ridiculous examples. lol
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Redux: Can you expect safety in Eve, as RPers?
« Reply #179 on: 09 Dec 2018, 04:03 »

Anyway, I expect that in the longer term, the capabilities of NPC-owned stations will be reduced, such that using your own structures is far, far more attractive a prospect, leading people to consider taking the risk of war declarations, in order to benefit.

Much like how staying in an NPC corp has the 11% tax rate on it, to make people consider being in a player corporation instead.
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