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[Bataav]

This devalues character action and consequences. Not a fan!

This is pretty much what I think of this idea 

Ditto.

Not at all a fan of dilluting consequences in EVE.

What happened to effort? What happened to needing to patience and investing time? What happened to someone having to deal with decisions made that they wouldn't make now?

Skills trained should be part of that.

So a PvPer isn't using those mining skills he's got tucked away in the back of his skull and is too ashamed to tell his buddies he knows one end of a mining laser from the other? Shame.

What happened to HTFU?

[Aria Jenneth]

This devalues character action and consequences. Not a fan!

This is pretty much what I think of this idea 

Ditto.

Not at all a fan of dilluting consequences in EVE.

What happened to effort? What happened to needing to patience and investing time? What happened to someone having to deal with decisions made that they wouldn't make now?

Skills trained should be part of that.

So a PvPer isn't using those mining skills he's got tucked away in the back of his skull and is too ashamed to tell his buddies he knows one end of a mining laser from the other? Shame.

What happened to HTFU?

It ran repeatedly into a brick wall and died a pointless death.

Consequences are very much a part of Eve. The vast, vast majority of those consequences take resources to correct the problem, but the problem is nevertheless correctable. We will shortly have one more area where that is the case.

I'll listen more seriously to complaints about Eve going soft when scamming is banned along with highsec piracy, lowsec PvP is by FW or consent only, and insurance payouts are handled by market value instead of materials.

Edit:

Bear in mind also that CCP used HTFU as a motto back before DUST and the Jita Riots, when they thought they could pull anything off if they just went for it hard enough.

What happened to it? We did. One massive player-driven reality check.

(The disaster that was and remains the Carbon engine helped.)

[Teinyhr]

My opinion has and always will be that this game has no consequences if you have more money you now what to do something with. Character transfers and shit like that erase everything, everyone has a ton of alts, nobody scams on their main etc.

Claiming this somehow ruins the action=consequence part of eve, is just bittervets crying, again. Eve hasn't had real punishment from doing "bad" stuff from whenever character trading and alts became commonplace.

[Bataav]

Wrong end of the stick I'm afraid.

I'm not suggesting that EVE is going soft for the gank and scam victims.

I'm suggested that this is another case of removing the need for time and effort to gank and scam.

But it's not just high and lowsec shenanigans affected here. Let me give a scenario where time and effort doesn't apply, and consequence is now a thing of the past:

I can't fly T3. So let's say I want a T3 character to join a WH Corp. rather than training up the skills over time I can just buy a made to measure character from the bazaar using PLEX funded ISK I got by applying some spare RL cash. That's always been a thing during my time in EVE so from my perspective nothing has gone downhill or got easier here. There's nothing to prompt the bittervet gnashing of teeth over the capsuleers of today not knowing their born.

But now I'm in my new T3 ship it doesn't mean my player skill is where it needs to be yet, and so the innevitable is likely to happen quickly and I'm going to find myself in my pod. My understanding is that that used to hurt because of the SP loss that came with it.

No longer! I'll just buy and inject them right back.

No effort, no waiting, no consequence.

[Utari Onzo]

As someone who has used and abused the character markets for profit (buying and flipping characters) I feel on two sides on this one.

One side feels this will negatively affect what used to be my primary income source, namely the bazaar. Since people can tweek characters with sufficient isk investment through this method, there's less incentive to buy specialised characters, which means their value will go down as demand drops off.

On the other hand, I don't see this much different from tags as COSMOS missions for fixing standings. COSMOS tags for factional standings have been a thing for a while, we now have security tags for sec status, and this will address the issue of 'wasted' sp. All of these take resources to correct an issue. This option follows former precedent where consequences always had a means of a 'fix'.

Options for awoxing/ganking/scamming on 'clean' characters has already existed, and will continue to exist. It's these factors that actually make EvE stand out as a game compared to other MMOs, and I don't actually think these skill certs will make a blind bit of difference there since they've always been extremely easy to set up. If anything, I think this is a worse option then just training up a character for a day or two, joining a lax hisec corp and clearing their hangars/ganking them with an afternoon catalyst.

Wrong end of the stick I'm afraid.

I'm not suggesting that EVE is going soft for the gank and scam victims.

I'm suggested that this is another case of removing the need for time and effort to gank and scam.

But it's not just high and lowsec shenanigans affected here. Let me give a scenario where time and effort doesn't apply, and consequence is now a thing of the past:

I can't fly T3. So let's say I want a T3 character to join a WH Corp. rather than training up the skills over time I can just buy a made to measure character from the bazaar using PLEX funded ISK I got by applying some spare RL cash. That's always been a thing during my time in EVE so from my perspective nothing has gone downhill or got easier here. There's nothing to prompt the bittervet gnashing of teeth over the capsuleers of today not knowing their born.

But now I'm in my new T3 ship it doesn't mean my player skill is where it needs to be yet, and so the innevitable is likely to happen quickly and I'm going to find myself in my pod. My understanding is that that used to hurt because of the SP loss that came with it.

No longer! I'll just buy and inject them right back.

No effort, no waiting, no consequence.

As a regular t3 pilot in wormholes, yes this was a little annoying losing skills, but honestly electronics 5 was the only 5 I really gave a shit about. Looking at the likely costs for SP transfer, I think popping out and getting one of these certs will be very isk inefficient. Unless you're rolling in more isk then you can do with, most players will likely just swallow the 5 days out of the skill queue, or less if they just want to get it back up to 5.

TL;DR I'm ok with this.

[Silas Vitalia]

My opinion has and always will be that this game has no consequences if you have more money you now what to do something with. Character transfers and shit like that erase everything, everyone has a ton of alts, nobody scams on their main etc.

Claiming this somehow ruins the action=consequence part of eve, is just bittervets crying, again. Eve hasn't had real punishment from doing "bad" stuff from whenever character trading and alts became commonplace.

Not crying, I thought a worthwhile example of a continuing trend, perhaps.

It used to take X amount of time, effort, and money (real or otherwise) to do Y activity.  The long trend since day 1 has been removing those artificial game mechanics barriers to do an activity.

Good? Bad? Depends on who you are and what you do. Plenty of good arguments for both removing and increasing time input and access to certain content in games.

I can guarantee though that this current trajectory is the same line of game design we've seen elsewhere in countless other examples that starts at one end with concepts like permadeath, subscriptions, experience, skills, etc, and ends up on the other end with 'free to play' 'class-less' 'arena' sorts of concepts. 

*edit*

It's sort of always two opposing sides to game design pholosophy; one view wants you to work for getting the more powerful game content.  The fancy sword, the high-powered gun, the shiny space battleship.

The other view thinks making you 'grind' for that is terrible, and wants you to access all the things you want in a more balanced rock paper scissors format, so no 'shiny' ship is the be-all-end-all.

Throw in the ability to spend $$ to access any of that content and it gets quite muddled.

Eve might be a ways removed from a twitchy respawning class-based arena combat game, but those distinctions seem to get more fuzzy as time moves on.  For good or bad.

[Silver Night]

I think that if people were going to get upset about crossing a line in the sand, it should have been the changes to clones (which as someone with very expensive clones I had mixed feelings about) rather than this. Looking at the way they structured it, it seems like it should take a lot of ISK to really abuse it, which seems very Eve-like to me. Although obviously the threat it poses to my precious SP-superiority is a concern. 

[Gottii]

I'm against this solely because Ghost Hunter might one day be able to cap Silver's SPs, and that bothers me greatly...

[Silver Night]

I'm against this solely because Ghost Hunter might one day be able to cap Silver's SPs, and that bothers me greatly...

Right?

[Silas Vitalia]

This buying skillpoints for $$ thing also just happened to be launched right before they ditched a whole line of capital ships and launched a new set with new capital modules and skills, right?

Tinfoiling here but do you suppose there will be some cash money being made when people have to train up those new skills suddenly?  Or will current capital skills cover the new ships and modules?

[The Rook]

True, they've never released new ships with new skills before.

[kalaratiri]

This buying skillpoints for $$ thing also just happened to be launched right before they ditched a whole line of capital ships and launched a new set with new capital modules and skills, right?

Tinfoiling here but do you suppose there will be some cash money being made when people have to train up those new skills suddenly?  Or will current capital skills cover the new ships and modules?

CCP have always stuck to a "if you could fly it before, you will be able to fly it after" method. See: Battlecruiser/Destroyer skill splits (technically I don't have the required skills for a command ship, can fly them anyway).

If you could fly triage before, you will almost certainly be granted the required skills for a FAX. In fact, they've suggested that all carriers currently with a triage module fitted will be turned into FAXs on release. As for new modules, I can't see them requiring brand new skills, simply higher levels of existing ones. T2 reps requiring the skill to 5 etc.

[Morwen Lagann]

They're tweaking some of that a little bit soon though - the current grandfathering method is such that you can train a skill if you have it injected/partly trained even if you don't have the current prerequisites trained up.

They're making some changes to the skill queue that will allow you to inject any skill you want, and queue anything as long as the prerequisites are before it in the queue. This will prevent you from, say, training Command Ships 5 if you haven't got the base leadership prerequisites out of the way already even if you were grandfathered in when they changed the prerequisites to begin with and have the skill trained to 4.

You'll still be able to fly the ship, but you won't be able to train the skill to 5 until the base stuff is out of the way first.

It's not perfect but I guess the case where you'd have a skill but not all its prerequisites at this point isn't too common... as long as CCP doesn't keep changing the prerequisites for things.

[The Rook]

You'll have to put 1 SP into the skill prior to patchday and you can train those skills you don't meet the prereqs anymore at your leisure.

[Louella Dougans]

I read an interesting take on this buying skillpoints thing.

The long-term consequence of it, is that Tech2 becomes even more entrenched in its position as the standard for fitting.

Meta modules, would just get refined for minerals, altering mineral prices.

Ship balancing would be pushed towards using the Tech2 equipment as the default, with no compromises to be made in most ships - e.g. time was, that a Crusader, you had to fit some meta modules, and smaller guns, to get enough CPU and PG to fit things. Now, you don't. You can fit the largest guns and all T2 modules.

while, economically, the increased reliance on T2, is a boost to moon-mineral holding alliances.