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[Ria Nieyli]

What's the advantage of owning a nullsec system? You can't stop hostiles from coming in. You can mine the moons without having sov in it. Etc. etc. etc. Mechanically it's no different from proclaiming that you own a lowsec system.

[Elmund Egivand]

What's the advantage of owning a nullsec system? You can't stop hostiles from coming in. You can mine the moons without having sov in it. Etc. etc. etc. Mechanically it's no different from proclaiming that you own a lowsec system.

You still forgot the part where you can make the system more valuable (more ores, better rats, better anomalies, better DED complexes) with the Development Index mechanic. 

Also a spot to build supercaps if you want to.

And POSes using 25% less fuel.

And the ability to control traffic through the system to some extent with Cynosural Suppression/Navigation upgrades to the iHub.

As such owning a nullsec system can be seen as more prestigious and the system owners are more bent on defending particularly valuable systems. There's so much more to lose. You can't 'so what' on sov nullsec as much as compared to FW.

[Ria Nieyli]

Yes, you can and people have been doing it for months. Sov null, big fucking whoop. Prestige of owning a system means exactly nothing when people can fly into it, kill you and fly out. It's just a reason for a fight.

[Alain Colcer]

With the only addition of mentioning that some of the FW roleplaying groups could have coupled "economic/social" development to a particular contested system and try to sway things into some interesting storytelling along the way...but most just focus on the "i won this system for my faction".

The problem with that is, as always, the impossibility of achieving anything lasting in FW. It can be heartbreaking to pick a homesystem, claim it as your own, and attempt to develop and defend it - because there is essentially nothing you can do to control the meta-narrative of the pendulum effect of the warzone. The Macro-War is simply bigger than you are - and for every Heydieles where we successfully defended a system there have been about five Enaluris where we got kicked out anyway.

So, it's very easy to say "I took that system for Deh Emprehhs" or whatever - the achievement is logged. It's real. It happened. But you have to maintain the freedom to walk away from that victory, because two weeks later the surging and vital forces of Tribal Liberation are trumpeting their victory in the forums. And two weeks later, you get YOUR turn again.

Personally, I've tried to never play that game, because it is SO susceptible to the whole "so what?" syndrome. Most of the RP excitement over FW has gone well and truly stale and cold and all that remains is tight Cruiser and smaller small-gang PvP. But you can get some very nice scraps in FW, on very short notice and at a very reasonable investment!

Yeah, but nullsec is susceptible to someone coming over and taking your system from you by force as well.

As for cruisers and down, all the complaints I hear about it sound like just bittervetting. And mind you, a bittervet isn't someone with lots of experience in the game. A bittervet is someone that has something change on him and couldn't adapt. Because for all the self-aggrandisement that the EVE community does, saying how good they are, they seem to be just as bad as everyone else. It's extremely jarring for a new player.

I totally see that there is no "lasting" effect since every sytem can be lost and taken gazzillion times...but i find extremely interesting to attemp something like what IPI does with Intaki for example....assemble POS, fill the market, create PI facilities....and then deal with the fact your faction just lost control of the area...how to keep your business afloat and deal with the adversity.....smuggle goods, subcontract haulers and mercs because you want the business to continue and make a presence....

it is meaningless in the grand scheme of things for the Federation...but it does carry meaning for myself and those who do that. And that storytelling is enough ....and it may spark a news item in the official site if its interesting enough.

[Morwen Lagann]

Part of the reason I consider FW largely meaningless, personally, is that the rules associated with being in a militia are entirely meaningless in the places that they should mean the most.

You are at war with the two opposing militias and their parent states. There is absolutely no valid reason that someone in X militia should be able to run around willy-nillly in enemy highsec without being properly engaged by the Navy (aka, scrammed and/or pointed), let alone able to dock in the first place.

That latter bit in particular. Why the hell is that rule enforced in lowsec but not in the major, supposedly more policed, population centers of highsec? Utterly fucking ridiculous.

[Ria Nieyli]

Then why are -10 sec status characters able to dock in Empire space? Fac navies chase them all the same as opposing militia members.

[Morwen Lagann]

Sec status is a CONCORD thing, not a war thing, and only refers to your actions between you and other capsuleers, not the empires. And, for the record, those NPC spawns actually tackle you.

[Lunarisse Aspenstar]

Part of the reason I consider FW largely meaningless, personally, is that the rules associated with being in a militia are entirely meaningless in the places that they should mean the most.

You are at war with the two opposing militias and their parent states. There is absolutely no valid reason that someone in X militia should be able to run around willy-nillly in enemy highsec without being properly engaged by the Navy (aka, scrammed and/or pointed), let alone able to dock in the first place.

That latter bit in particular. Why the hell is that rule enforced in lowsec but not in the major, supposedly more policed, population centers of highsec? Utterly fucking ridiculous.

This is perhaps my biggest issue as well.

[Ria Nieyli]

Sec status is a CONCORD thing, not a war thing, and only refers to your actions between you and other capsuleers, not the empires. And, for the record, those NPC spawns actually tackle you.

CONCORD or not, it's the faction navies that pursue you for low sec status. It's the exact same punitive mechanic as having low standing, or being in an opposing militia. The difference is that having lowsec makes everyone chase you.

Speaking of which, CalMil personnel with -5 sec gets attacked by the Caldari Navy in highsec. CCPls.

[Alain Colcer]

those mechanics have been largely inherited from way back....using standings, sec status and other half-baked features...

Its one of those NPC / PvE things that needs revisiting...but it is obviously very low priority.

[Morwen Lagann]

It's the exact same punitive mechanic as having low standing, or being in an opposing militia.

The Navy getting involved w/r/t sec issues doesn't validate your argument, specifically because this line is inaccurate at best, and patently false at worst.

The "exact same punitive mechanic" would have militia members being tackled by the FW spawns in highsec, in addition to the standings/sec ones. If I have good sec and otherwise good standings (not really that difficult), the NPCs that spawn in enemy highsec because of being in militia will never tackle me. Ever. They are hard-coded NOT to.

The notion that the empires are allowed to tackle pilots who've nuked their security status (via attacking other capsuleers) or their standings, but not pilots that are actively at war with them, who may be neither criminal in CONCORD's eyes nor of poor standings due to the mechanics or simply being fresh meat, is 100% flat-out ridiculous, and simply adds to the feeling that FW is meaningless: your actions in the warzone don't have any effect in what is supposed to be the safer, most populated parts of enemy space.

[Ria Nieyli]

I don't understand what YOUR problem with that is. I mean, seriously, the entire FW is unimportant because NPCs don't shoot you enough in highsec? Really?

[Morwen Lagann]

There are no tangible consequences for actions taken in the warzone, in the places that should have the most consequences for actions taken there outside of a largely meaningless "whose name is on the system's sovereignty" statistic. Its lack of realism utterly destroys any immersion or suspension of disbelief.

Actions should have consequences. FW lacks the vast majority of those consequences, and on top of that, doesn't have a particularly big impact on the rest of the game at large.

[Ria Nieyli]

So that's an yes.

No, seriously, if it bothers you that much that enemy faction players are traversing your space too freely, get in a ship and shoot them. Wait, is that the same in nullsec or anywhere else? Guess not, because in FW, NPCs should shoot you. As for exerting influence on the rest of the game is it less or more than being an unafilliated pirate? What about hubfights which the Militias hire lowsec allies for? Guess that's nothing.

[Lunarisse Aspenstar]

Thats the problem. Unless you are in the militia, you get concorded if you shoot at enemy militia in your faction's space.

And yes, I do fly FW with my other character, and yes, she does try to hunt TLF in empire space at which point they usually dock, in freaking Emperor Family Academy in the Throne Worlds.

(and I love FW, don't get me wrong, but it could be better integrated into the rest of new eden in ways that make sense)