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[purple]

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery

Namely:

[sic]...though there have been high profile cases of wealthy Gallente being arrested for using slave labor in their homes or businesses.

Punishment.

When encountering less-developed civilizations, one of the Federation's first orders of business was to ensure that slavery was not a problem. A few times, the Federation has forcibly abolished and freed slaves, something generally viewed with positivity among Federation citizens. This “cultural imperialism” has drawn fire from the Federation's enemies, but those inside the Federation view the criticism as a small price to pay for the freedom of others.

Pursuit and punishment/abolishment.

A few work to raise awareness of illegal slavery within the Federation itself, which remains a problem despite the wide negative attitudes about it.

Raising awareness means the general population is generally unaware of its existence and/or in denial about the possibility of its existence. It also shows a vested political interest which means it is something that would normally appeal to voters.

Does this necessarily mean that the Federation is simply a victim of circumstance that has bad people enslaving others that it simply doesn't know about? Nope. I suspect there are politicians in place who turn a blind eye or even discreetly promote/assist such practices. But on a whole? Not generally and acceptable or permitted practice within the Federation.

Thank you

[Rinai Vero]

So, going from what's been established here about the *character* of slavery in the Federation: what about the *number* of slaves as the thread name asks? What would ya'll put forward as a rough estimate of the slave population in the Federation?

[Lyn Farel]

Well I don't have sources obviously but if you are talking about hardcore slavery with real slaves (like in the gallente undeground), then I would say below 1%, which is already a lot of people...

If you mean indentured, then... Hard to tell, the definition is rather vague.

[purple]

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Gallente_Federation

Delta
Delta cities are categorized by having very few unique characteristics beyond a large population. The income gap is narrow, yet the range as a whole is lower down the Federation government’s ladder. Delta cities may be built around a single industry, or are the hubs of minor civilizations who were never uplifted or developed. Technology may be old-fashioned, based on fossil fuels and local resources, though there may be smatterings of contemporary tech. Alternatively, the colonial cities found across the frontiers of the Federation are typically assigned delta status, as their standardized methods of construction and development are not considered to grant them any unique characteristics.

Living in a delta city is considered unremarkable. While a citizen cannot hope to be as well-off as those in more developed parts of the Federation, they are unlikely to fall into abject poverty either. These cities can be very remote, not interacting with space at all beyond industry, instead relying on various hinterland communities in its own political and economic bubble. Thus, any city that is relevant only to its local continent or planet can be considered a delta city.

Omega
Omega cities are no longer officially acknowledged by the Federation government, but are nonetheless recorded by independent groups. These are cities where order as defined by the Federation has collapsed (or never existed in the first place) for whatever reason, rife with abject poverty and instability. Any governments that exist are weak to impotent, and highly corrupt. Actual control of the fragmented populace is exhibited through non-recognized forces, including tribal warlords or illegal corporate proxies. Metrics such as personal health, life expectancy, and literacy rates are amongst the lowest in New Eden. Modern technology is either non-existent or in the hands of controlling forces. Any unifying identity is similarly absent.

Though such places exist in all four empires (and are numerous in null-security space), the Federation takes a different approach as it still classes the inhabitants of omega cities as full citizens, thus entitled to the same rights and support as everyone else. Governments of other territories or the Federation itself frequently attempt to intervene in omega cities to establish some sense of order and stability. This may be militarily, sending in forces to liberate the inhabitants from their oppressors. More peaceful means may be attempting to facilitate non-rigged elections and encourage voter turnout, but various local factors the Federation has been unable to take into account (either being unaware or unwilling depending on the administration) means that these endeavors can be unsuccessful.

Controversially, interstellar corporations have been implicated in keeping omega cities as such by using them to fill economic niches that cannot be compensated for elsewhere. For example, corporations have been caught employing child laborers in omega cities, in a wide variety of areas, but especially in textiles for use in interstellar fashion circles. Other illicit practices (like slavery) can frequently be found in omega cities. This has only been able to continue for so long because of the lack of any media or communications technology locally has kept many omega cities hidden from wider purview.

The majority of the Federation are in agreement that omega cities are in need of assistance. An unfashionable few defend the existence of these cities as serving a symbolic purpose, stating that omega cities are the exact reasons why citizens should not take their freedoms to the extreme, and should all work to prevent their own societies from falling that far.

Type-II

Type-II settlements are as large as their type-I counterparts, but are significantly older and will have instances of poverty and underprivilege. They will lack the advanced aesthetics of the higher tier, and constructed with last generation techniques without having been upgraded to modern standard. As such, their economic significance may have dwindled, creating unemployment and districts inhabited by relatively poorer individuals.

Older space stations and underwater cities are examples of type-II habitats.

At the other end of the spectrum, there are millions of subsistence communities that keep themselves isolated and are completely unknown to larger bodies, ranging from anything including planetary tribes to forgotten colonies. Many only realize that they are citizens of some interstellar Federation in the rare event they encounter someone from space. Though there may be perceptions of abject poverty (particularly amongst non-civilized races), the truth of the matter in many cases is that there is no local perception of it; the population are happy to live their lives without any item of modern technology. They are left alone for the most part, given the choice to engage with the Federation as equal citizens if they wish. Gallente colonialism still lingers in some parts, however, and they may find themselves modernized regardless, though they are free to protest this.

[Ollie]

 I have a similar view of the Federation to purple, although I'd argue that at least some of his statements and conclusions in his original post go a little too far. For me, one of the big tensions in the Federation is how all these trillions of people exist within a system that promotes freedom and democracy but doesn't have the resources or infrastructure to action its vision on the scale it needs to.

I'm always amused by the stereotype of successful Gallente and Federation citizens as vapid, celebrity-obsessed airheads when the reality is that in order to excel under such a system and rise out of the sleaze and slime that exists beneath the popular image of Federal society you would need to be strong-willed, extremely intelligent and/or capable and ruthless enough to crush your own children along with anyone else who gets in your way.

Power Politics and The Human Painting have always been two of my favourite Gallente focused chronicles as a result.

[Arkon Sarain]

Perhaps part of the difficulty in approaching this discussion is the fact that we've never defined properly the nebulous term "slavery" - perhaps if we begin by trying to reach a consensus, for the purposes of this discussion at least, as to what we mean by "slavery" we can press forward and achieve synthesis.

[Lyn Farel]

I really doubt that you will succeed in such a task imo... That's the whole point of it : be it IC or OOC, slavery can take many mantles, from various indentures to hardcore breeding slavery.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

It's really easy to define a term such as 'slavery' sufficently, even if it has to include a vast variety of practices. The problem is not the definition, but to have people agree on it. Is wage slavery really slavery? Some people would say yes, others would say no and both would be sure to have it right.

Even if you try to bring forth a 'minimal definition', with which everyone should be able to agree that everything that falls under it certainly is slavery, there will be problems, when you look at it closely. Things like forced penal work or legal guardianship are hard to differentiate from slavery and people will here, again, disagree on what is a form of slavery and what not.

Also, the slavery debate is rarely one taking place on the field of reason, but rather on the emotional plane. Definitions can't really do justice to the emotional side of things.

All that said, I think it'd be a good thing to agree on a definition for the sake of the discussion. Even if one doesn't agree with all facets of the definition, it helps making clear where one disagrees and where one agrees and generally gives a discussion a structure that allows to better understand what is actually talked about and how.

[orange]

Perhaps pertinent to the discussion.  CNN Freedom Project - Ending Modern Slavery

[Valadeus]

I'm always amused by the stereotype of successful Gallente and Federation citizens as vapid, celebrity-obsessed airheads when the reality is that in order to excel under such a system and rise out of the sleaze and slime that exists beneath the popular image of Federal society you would need to be strong-willed, extremely intelligent and/or capable and ruthless enough to crush your own children along with anyone else who gets in your way.

Power Politics and The Human Painting have always been two of my favourite Gallente focused chronicles as a result.

Heh, those two chronicles are part of what formed Liam as a character. It's why I try and roleplay him as a highly intelligent, somewhat guarded individual who is proud of where the Federation is compared to where it could be.

[Arkon Sarain]

I really doubt that you will succeed in such a task imo... That's the whole point of it : be it IC or OOC, slavery can take many mantles, from various indentures to hardcore breeding slavery.

Then surely this discussion is moot? If there is no possibility of defining the term "slavery" to the extent where we can adequately estimate OOCly the actual number of "slaves," as defined by our agreed upon definition, then isn't this discussion irrelevant? And should properly then be consigned to IC debates?

[Lyn Farel]

I don' t know. Nico is probably right.

[Arkon Sarain]

I don' t know. Nico is probably right.

From my reading of Nico's post they said that "slavery" is a hotly contested term (not an essentially contested one), and that most discussions attempting to define it are not rationally set out.

However they concluded that for the purposes of our discussion here, to OOCly determine the number of slaves in the Federation, that it is assuredly worthwhile to define what is meant by "slavery." Even if only in relation to our peculiar positions, as this will help others to know what the person posting defines "slavery" as.

Apologies for any errors in this post, am on my phone, any edits will be done when I am at a computer.

[Ollie]

Or we could, you know, keep it undefined while still acknowledging (OOCly) that it's likely to exist under some definition and use that conjecture to generate conflict/debate ICly.

As soon as you try to apply numbers to anything in RP someone will try to use those numbers to game the system and 'win'.

[orange]

Or we could, you know, keep it undefined while still acknowledging (OOCly) that it's likely to exist under some definition and use that conjecture to generate conflict/debate ICly.

As soon as you try to apply numbers to anything in RP someone will try to use those numbers to game the system and 'win'.

Too late.