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[Lyn Farel]

I seem to remember that in the demographic wiki article there was a few ratios stated, like how many minmatar slaves for total slaves, that kind of things. Now that we know that there is 10 Tn Matari slaves (for 21 Tn free Amarr) in the Empire, Then we can also get rough estimates for other bloodlines in slavery I guess ?

The nice thing is also that if we know how many total slaves there are in the Empire, then we can also deduce how many individuals an average amarrian household actually counts (and see how big their family households are), since we know the ratio already (2.3 per household), as well as the total number of free Amarrians. With the total number of slaves, all bloodlines included, bingo.

[Samira Kernher]

It does if ownership is actually counted by household instead of Holder, not only in the figures we have but in terms of who legally has 'custody' of a slave.  It is entirely possible that statistically speaking a household 'owns' a loaned or rented slave, with the 'responsibility' of the Holder as the true owner being the pursuit of reparations for crimes committed should the entrusted parties abuse their ownership.

As it is getting a little 'testy' in here I'll bow out.

Ownership is counted by Holder. This is explicitly stated. Only Holders can legally own slaves.

The 2.3 slaves per household number is exactly the same kind of number as, say, the fact that there are 90 guns per 100 people in the USA. This number does not mean that 90 of those 100 people own a gun. It means that for every 100 people, there is an average of 90 guns, even though in many cases multiple guns are owned by a single person.

The nice thing is also that if we know how many total slaves there are in the Empire, then we can also deduce how many individuals an average amarrian household actually counts (and see how big their family households are), since we know the ratio already (2.3 per household), as well as the total number of free Amarrians. With the total number of slaves, all bloodlines included, bingo.

20-21 trillion slaves in Amarr, of which 10-11 are Minmatar.

[Lyn Farel]

So that would be approximately households of 9 persons average. That's extremely high, and even if I am expecting Holders to count by the hundreds or thousands, I also expect commoners (the huge majority) to have 'normal families', and also some people just being alone without any household to begin with.

[Silver Night]

Sort of starting to get tangential, but if it is an average of 9 people per household, it could indicate that in large parts of the empire, people have a household that includes some extended family (this is a pretty common arrangement, though not so much in the US or western Europe). So, it might be include a grandparents, perhaps 2 or more married children and their spouses, and their children. Even with just part of 3 generations you get up over 9 pretty fast. Particularly if we assume an overall better (or at least more advanced) level of medical care.

[Lyn Farel]

Yes, but that's why I said it's huge. You will only find similar results in the Minmatar.

[Valadeus]

Maybe I'm saying something that's already been stated or agreed upon, but it seems to me like we simply have a case of a demographic that is very largely skewed.

For instance, if you take into account the fact that Commoners should dramatically outnumber Holders in the Empire (something along the ratio of like 10,000,000:1) then you'll see the numbers more like this:

For every 10,000,000 Commoner families, there is 1 Holder family. That one Holder family will have anywhere from 10,000 - 100,000 slaves. Which means you have roughly 50,000 slaves per 10,000,000 people in the empire. Which is 0.5% of the population being slaves.

So, in a population of 21 trillion, the numbers would look like this:

"Free" population: 21,000,000,000,000 (21 trillion)
Slave population: 105,000,000,000 (105 billion)

To correct this, you simply have to elevate the number of slaves per Holder family, or the number of Holder families per Commoner family.

If we elevate the number of Holders per 10 million people to something more like 10,000,000:5 and keep the same ratio of slaves. Then you end up with something like 250,000 per 10,000,000 people which is 2.5% of the population being enslaved. So your numbers would be:

"Free" population: 21,000,000,000,000 (21 trillion)
Slave population: 525,000,000,000 (525 billion)

So on, so forth until you reach the desired ratio. The key is to determine what you raise: the number of slaves per Holder family or the number of Holder families per Commoner family?

No matter which path you take, you can arrive at the desired numbers; it comes down to what picture of the Empire you want to paint. Do you want a vastly Commoner Empire with few Holder families responsible for literally millions of slaves each or do you want a more spread Empire with slightly larger numbers of Holders and only thousands or hundreds of thousands of slaves each?

[Pieter Tuulinen]

There's something more. I believe that the Empire follows the model of slavery that is based on the Classical system, not on the Chattel system. From what I've read slaves can actually occupy very different social levels within the Empire - I doubt that the clerical slaves (religious and administrative) or the other high status slaves look very similar to the field slaves or the mine slaves, and I imagine that many slaves go most of their lives without ever seeing the Lord Holder that they are ostensibly the property of - filling their lives with work similar to that of an Egyptian Scribe or a Roman Overseer and communicating mostly within a hierarchy of similar caste slaves.

I wonder how many slaves are even part of their Holders households and how many live in property simply owned by that Holder in the cities and other communities where their work is?

[Samira Kernher]

There's something more. I believe that the Empire follows the model of slavery that is based on the Classical system, not on the Chattel system. From what I've read slaves can actually occupy very different social levels within the Empire - I doubt that the clerical slaves (religious and administrative) or the other high status slaves look very similar to the field slaves or the mine slaves, and I imagine that many slaves go most of their lives without ever seeing the Lord Holder that they are ostensibly the property of - filling their lives with work similar to that of an Egyptian Scribe or a Roman Overseer and communicating mostly within a hierarchy of similar caste slaves.

I wonder how many slaves are even part of their Holders households and how many live in property simply owned by that Holder in the cities and other communities where their work is?

A significant amount, yup. The higher the generation, the more opportunities.

[Valadeus]

I would agree, Pieter. Which is why the number of slaves a Holder is responsible for is so high. It's not like they're micromanaging a hundred thousand people.

[Louella Dougans]

So, you can get a rough idea of the number of households of any social class from the number.

And that number is wrong and unworkable.

Then it's wrong and unworkable. The end. Errors can be made.

that was my whole point.

[Jekaterine]

[mod]Off topic split into new thread found here [/mod]