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[Aria Jenneth]

(Warning: written in the throes of a PF-hacker's high)

Greetings, all.

So, it's come to my attention that CCP did a little ... narrowing ... of the prime fiction surrounding clones. Used to be we could all just merrily swan about shooting each other in bar fights and rely on the not-quite-not-PF device of the backup, or "soft clone."

I even seem to remember a CCP PF-maven being asked about it at some point and basically going "Eh, sure."

No more, evidently.

"The possibility looms that cloning may at some point take place outside the strictures of a capsule or a similar machine, though it's considered unlikely that it will ever be anything other than instantaneous."

IE, no putting human brain scans in cloud storage and no we don't care whether you can afford the storage space.

... Never mind the CEO of Zainou Biotech. Ignore him. He's crazy anyway.

And yet! And yet, there is still hope. Even without giving CCP the proverbial bird, we may yet be able to acquiesce to dramatic, gruesome, and possibly deserved out-of-pod demises at the hands of our fellow infomorphs without having to push the biomass button.

The method is simple: make it a little ... evil.

Our dear authors, you see, went to great lengths to make the cloning process dark and gritty, but neglected to consider the possibility of cloning with one sending station, but multiple receivers. Naturally, creating multiple active copies of a single mind is apt to be highly illegal (might be worth going into this elsewhere). But nobody ever said they all had to be active.

Not all of these receivers need attach to clones that will ever wake up.

Let's say you set up a rig for a standard jump-clone contract, but, for a fee, you also offer a bit of "insurance." Instead of transferring to one new body, the client's consciousness is transferred to two-- one of which is kept at a secure location in a medically-induced coma. This clone need not possess arms, legs, or even the ability to survive unaided. Nor does it need to be repeatedly written to-- it can simply be disposed of and replaced each time the backup is updated.

When the time comes (confirmed death of the client, a particular time without contact from the client, whatever), the cloning agency simply executes a jump-clone type scan from the "backup," thereby restoring the capsuleer to life, naturally missing any memories that might have accrued since the backup was last updated.

Poof. Back you come.

This has the handy side effect of validating the various otherwise contradictory bits of PF that indicate that killing an out-of-pod capsuleer is just as futile as killing one in-pod, and the further handy quality of sticking to the PF's grimdark intent.

So. Thoughts?

[Samira Kernher]

It should be noted that if you want to do multiple clones, something this complicated this isn't needed whatsoever. You can just transfer it to a database first, saving the pattern in the database while using it to replicate a new copy. Afterall the only reason that clones are one-to-one at all is because, by default, the burn scanners are connected via quantum entanglement directly to the new clone's gel structure to make the transition as smooth as possible. As seen in various news articles and missions, however, saving the data to a computer first (by just hooking up the fluid router to a computer database instead of the clone) allows you to replicate that data as often as desired, or to keep it in storage for emergencies (backup clones). This is how DUSTers work by default, with their core brain pattern kept on a central database. Of course, creating multiple clones is still illegal as hell.

This is what would be needed for your method anyway. Quantum entanglement can only ever be one to one, so any 'multiple recievers' idea necessitates sending the data to a middleman first (like a computer database) and then splitting it from there.

Anyway, while softclones (as in, slow, non-destructive scans) are less canon now, backup clones do exist, as stated in Source. They almost certainly would be, as said above, saving the pattern in a computer database after a burn scan so that it can be pulled out later if needed.

[Aria Jenneth]

Eh ... maybe I'm misinterpreting the article, then.

Lovely!

As you were, folks.

("Source?" Please point to source of Source.)

(Still a bit giddy.)

[Samira Kernher]

("Source?" Please point to source of Source.)

(Still a bit giddy.)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1616552719/

[Aria Jenneth]

Oh.

Heck.

Well, maybe I'll ask for one for my birthday this year.

... Or wait for my next paycheck. That works, too.

[Samira Kernher]

Some people say, "Bad on you CCP, I don't want to buy my lore!", but these days using our wallets is basically the only way to encourage CCP's executive management to actually work on lore. Subscription only goes into game development now, lore stuff is done by a few people on their spare time, so I'm personally quite fine with paying for it if that's what it takes to get them to do it. Source was written by Falcon, Eterne, Abraxas, and a few others I think, and is easily far better than any of the previous (TonyG) attempts at peripheral products. It's mostly stuff we all already knew, but there are some nice new bits and clarifications added. There are some silly parts, but those are the exception IMO.

I'll say that I have been and am willing to transcribe any particular section from the book for people if they'd like, by the way.

[Aria Jenneth]

Hm. I was about to say something similar to your first couple of lines-- both aspects.

Fair enough, then. If paying them will keep them thinking about it, I'm for it.

... My main objection, such as it is, is that I hate having to find out about PF by tripping over it. See, for example, above.

[Samira Kernher]

Well, the vast majority of the stuff I mentioned is from free sources, the science chronicles and EVElopedia. About the only thing that Source clarifies specifically on this issue is that backup clones are definitely a thing and that keeping brain data saved on a database is a thing (explicitly done with DUSTers).

Tripping over PF these days is more about the sheer amount of it, I'd say. It's hard to keep everything in order.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Aria, I recommend to have a look at Source before buying it. Opinions differ on Source and I think one can generally agree that they differ in the way that there are two general camps: People who rather like it and people who rather dislike it.

I, personally, fall into the latter category and so I think it's only fair if I give my perspective here, given that Samira is in the former.

Source promised to get the conflicts and inconsistencies of PF solved. Rather than doing that it either retoconned those conflicts out of existence, opting for a solution outside of previously established PF or it simply didn't resolve those conflicts, ignoring them largely. Yes, the majority of Source is stuff we already know: But I don't agree with Samira's assessment that the 'silly parts' are exceptions. Source does, indeed, introduce quite some new PF conflicts and isn't at all consistent itself. If I look purely at what was added in Source, I'm quite disappointed: Source does a lot of entirely unecessary retcons there, in my opinion and adds inconsistency.

I don't want to get into details, but my impression is that the Amarr and Minmatar suffered most fiction wise in Source and that this reflects the factional bias of some of the authors of Source.

I don't think that money really is a way to encourage CCP's executive management to actually (have someone) work on lore: It's a way to have them work on monetizing lore. And people buy stuff if they have to update. Retcons out of the blue are a great measure for that - they are not, though, for great storytelling.

I think monetizing lore just deepens the conflict between the goals of having good lore and making money out of lore.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Things I learned in Source: Achuran women have on average 20 babies in their lifetimes. All pod pilots are, by definition, the peak of intellect. Khanid Kingdom? What?

[Lyn Farel]

Hm. I was about to say something similar to your first couple of lines-- both aspects.

Fair enough, then. If paying them will keep them thinking about it, I'm for it.

... My main objection, such as it is, is that I hate having to find out about PF by tripping over it. See, for example, above.

There is that but my biggest problem these days is that I happen to trip over retconned PF. For us that started playing before TEA with the old, old lore, those retcons often prove completely contradictory to the first, original lore, and that is extremely unnerving.

[Halcyon]

Aria, I recommend to have a look at Source before buying it. Opinions differ on Source and I think one can generally agree that they differ in the way that there are two general camps: People who rather like it and people who rather dislike it.

I, personally, fall into the latter category and so I think it's only fair if I give my perspective here, given that Samira is in the former.

Source promised to get the conflicts and inconsistencies of PF solved. Rather than doing that it either retoconned those conflicts out of existence, opting for a solution outside of previously established PF or it simply didn't resolve those conflicts, ignoring them largely. Yes, the majority of Source is stuff we already know: But I don't agree with Samira's assessment that the 'silly parts' are exceptions. Source does, indeed, introduce quite some new PF conflicts and isn't at all consistent itself. If I look purely at what was added in Source, I'm quite disappointed: Source does a lot of entirely unecessary retcons there, in my opinion and adds inconsistency.

I don't want to get into details, but my impression is that the Amarr and Minmatar suffered most fiction wise in Source and that this reflects the factional bias of some of the authors of Source.

I don't think that money really is a way to encourage CCP's executive management to actually (have someone) work on lore: It's a way to have them work on monetizing lore. And people buy stuff if they have to update. Retcons out of the blue are a great measure for that - they are not, though, for great storytelling.

I think monetizing lore just deepens the conflict between the goals of having good lore and making money out of lore.

Problem is, to get them t create more Lore, they need to care more about lore than PvPs, otherwise all focus is on PvPs because that brings in more people

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

All pod pilots are, by definition, the peak of intellect.

To be fair, this one has been LOTS of fun to snark about on The Summit.

[Saede Riordan]

Ahh yes the 'only scanner is a burn scanner' thing.

How about we just fix it up like this: I have a high tech technological nation with an interest in ubiquitous cloning, and we have come up with a method for non-invasive clone scans. Thus its tied to the lore of Origin instead of the lore of the rest of Known Space, with all of its inconsistencies and limitations.

[Mizhara]

I don't want to get into details, but my impression is that the Amarr and Minmatar suffered most fiction wise in Source and that this reflects the factional bias of some of the authors of Source.

Unfortunately, I have to say I agree here. On both the Amarr and Minmatar counts. Source is the kind of book I love in any roleplaying setting, but it created more problems than it solved.