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[kalaratiri]

1) To Pyre. You guys rock, keep doing what you're doing. Wish I was there, etc. I admit to some jealousy and frustration with you all at times, because 1) I am envious of the cohesive, skilled group youve made and 2) I cant really join you OR fight you, so I just kind of get to sit back and watch, but you're all having fun, and that is great.

One of us, one of us.

[Veiki]

For that type of exclusion I don't know that there is an easy solution, other than encouraging established players to reach out to newcomers.

I'd love to participate in interactions with newcomers to either Eve or RP but I'm also aware of my own negative reputation among some (or many) due to past jimmy rustling (Grr), past association with PYRE (Grr), and current association with GSF (Grr), that given my own past experiences will eventually lead to a scenario in which they will be judged, negatively, for such an association by others due to incidents they weren't even involved with.

However, I feel that dynamic of judging others only on the basis of their associations with others and expecting - even demanding - that their associations match their own with an, "It's me or them," attitude will naturally lead to social balkanization within roleplay circles. In what can be an adversarial and conflict oriented game like EVE there will always be grievances caused, but all too often they just seem to become intractable issues when the past is always brought up to beat others with and the sides involved feel they are justified in their blame of the others.

For myself, I'd say such a conflict dynamic makes sense from an in-character and roleplay perspective but when the dynamic feels like its also part of the out of character and player dynamics among and between roleplayers that the environment becomes negative and not enjoyable. When that becomes the case, then of course people would want to withdraw, not participate, make their interactions private, and put the social walls up.

Whilst I recognize and admit I was very much an asshole in the past, all too often for me these days it feels like even if I'd want to move on in a more positive manner, further in-character interactions with new players and even old players in future just means a lot of potential dramas for the reasons I've already outlined above.

[kalaratiri]

Also,



/thread

[Ember Vykos]

3) I have the RP history to leverage Pyre  (it would involve shooting people)

That sounds soooo interesting.

[Jikahr]

I tend to be in agreement with much of what has been said.

Silas is dead right about Factional Warfare. I would call it the WOW Theme park in the EVE sandbox. Low sec is the worst of high sec and null sec, with none of the benefits. Factional Warfare is like a half hearted or half realized attempt to plop the structure of WOW into the sandbox of EVE.

Yet I have to ask, is EVE really a sandbox? The developers tell us 'you can do what you want', as long as it involves either 1) killing stuff or 2) Making money. Anything too creative involves either a heavy dose of solipsism or wishing the game mechanics would change.

I agree with Samira about Blood Raiders in the Amarr militia, it's a logical contradiction. Pirates turning privateer is perfectly understandable. However, religious zealots and devotees teaming up with their most despised and feared heretics to fight against an apparently fractured and scattered enemy who by comparison are merely rebels and heathens? This makes no sense.

I too have argued that the Pirate factions should be able to declare war on each other and fight for FW territory as well. The Pirate factions are in fact, miniature nations. As someone else said, they are like a mirror image of the nation itself. Guristas are like Caldari who became ultra-capitalists, expanding into the lucrative black market as well. Blood Raiders are religious Amarrians that have devolved into some kind of crazy cult. They became a Pirate nation because they rejected (and were rejected by) their host nations.

The FW game mechanic allows the various factions to declare a free, permanent war dec on the opposing faction. Why can't this be expanded to include the pirate factions as well? Why not have a Militia recruitment button AND a Pirate recruitment button, with the Pirate recruitment automatically signing you into one of the four Pirate factions? Why not have the Blood Raiders in an automatic perma-war dec with the Amarr Empire, or all empires? Wouldn't the game coding to do this be exactly the same?

Pirate stations in the low sec factional war zones as well.

I also think it should be possible to have inter-factional civil wars. There should be a game mechanic for this. The Amarr Empire is in a kind of cold war with the Khanid kingdom as well as against the heretical Cult of St. Tetrimon. Lorewise, this is a little different than the war between the Sani Sabik and the Empire. The cult of St. Tertimon are a lot more palatable to the Amarrian people, so lorewise they should be more numerous. In reality, I think there are perhaps one or two Tetrimonists, but a gazillion Blood Raiders.

It should be possible for entire regions to have war with one another, such as tribe against tribe or Holder against Holder. The followers of Tibus Heth should be able to declare a kind of free perma-war dec against Caldari loyalists, and so on.

In defense of the Blood Raiders though, I do think that they are doing some of the best (or only) RP in EVE at the moment. Naupilius is spending a lot of his own time and ISK to provide content such as placing 'easter egg' towers, simply to give other people the opportunity to shoot these towers down. Synthetic Cultist is doing her (it's?) part in providing story lore content in the summit. A lot of work and creative thinking went into the RP that these players are doing. The downside of this is that they all seem fractured and dissenting, despite Omir Sarikusa's efforts to unite them.

Also, I have been an Amarr loyalist in FW and it is a little boring. I chose the Amarr faction because I thought they were the 'bad guys'. Slavery = Bad. Am I right? In reality, I join a FW loyalist corp who are one of the few, if only, roleplaying corps in EVE. The roleplaying was kind of off and on at times, and at times I felt like it was being used as a convenient excuse to belittle or humiliate me. It's true that we were restricted to Amarrian hulls, which wasn't a problem for me, but some people got kicked out or quit the corp over it. The use of drugs was also prohibited.

FW itself is quite limiting to roleplay. It's hard to tell a good story or a funny joke in the middle of a car crash. This is what FW seems like to me, a kind of demolition derby. There isn't much time for roleplaying in a fire fight.

As far as game mechanics, I have wondered about adding a 'War cry' and a 'Death cry' to a character's creation sheet. The war cry would be a pre-chosen sentence delivered as soon as the first shots were fired, and the Death cry an EVE mail once a pod has been ruptured. This would add a lot to the roleplaying experience.

[Elmund Egivand]

Oh, that adds another reason why I do not roleplay a loyalist: Status Quo. Nothing changes, far as I can see. Any attempt to destroy the Amarr Empire is doomed from the get go due to game-enforced status quo. Trying to reclaim the Republic is also doomed to failure for the same reason. When nothing bloody well changes, except for the superficial change-of-hands of systems in FW systems, all it generates is frustration.

I'm not keen at that. I decided that it's not going to be fun. Having roleplayed in WoW, where NOTHING CHANGES until two expansions later, I decided, you know what? I don't want to roleplay something that is enforced by the status quo.

Screw that crap and go play a freelancer.

[Samira Kernher]

In defense of the Blood Raiders though, I do think that they are doing some of the best (or only) RP in EVE at the moment. Naupilius is spending a lot of his own time and ISK to provide content such as placing 'easter egg' towers, simply to give other people the opportunity to shoot these towers down. Synthetic Cultist is doing her (it's?) part in providing story lore content in the summit. A lot of work and creative thinking went into the RP that these players are doing. The downside of this is that they all seem fractured and dissenting, despite Omir Sarikusa's efforts to unite them.

They are far from the only people doing RP.

As far as game mechanics, I have wondered about adding a 'War cry' and a 'Death cry' to a character's creation sheet. The war cry would be a pre-chosen sentence delivered as soon as the first shots were fired, and the Death cry an EVE mail once a pod has been ruptured. This would add a lot to the roleplaying experience.

I don't think it would. Stock, automated phrases are not roleplay. Roleplay is deliberate interaction, the back and forth of action and reaction. In such a case as a fight, roleplay is inherent in what ships people fly, how they approach and act in the battle, and how they choose, directly, to open or end it. It will also be partially built on what they choose to say, such as local taunts (PIE fleets for example frequently quotes Scripture when the enemy is choosing not to engage, as a way of hopefully taunting them. It's not just RPers that do this as it happens all the time with OOC smacktalk as well, and that in itself is a form of RP).

Either way I would consider the vast majority of RP to happen outside of battles. Battles are battles and their purpose is in that limited capacity. They are useful for demonstrating a character's commitment to fight for their beliefs but ultimately most interaction rests in the spaces between battles. Sometimes that is local smack, but it is more often dialogue in The Summit, on the official RP forum, or in private conversations between characters or in the various other RP channels and establishments. The interactions in these mediums fosters relations and can lead to or be spawned off the battles, or not be related at all as having a battle is not at all necessary for RP.

RP needs a balance of interactive activities and in-game space activities. But the moment it becomes automated, it is no longer RP, just two-dimensional cariactures in a video game. it is for this same reason that I also dislike characters who have been created solely to be stock mouthpieces for their faction, without any consideration for the actual character itself. I, for one, want to immerse myself in a real universe populated by real people with real beliefs, emotions, and interactions.




As far as all this talk against faction loyalist RP? Different flavors. For me, independent, freelancer, pirate RP is about as dull as it gets. You have no purpose, no drive, no structure. There is no want or conflict in that kind of RP because by its nature you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want. And when you have that kind of freedom, there no longer becomes any reason to do anything. Yes, you can build something, you can create your own goals, but for me the capacity to build something means little if there is no reason to build it beyond what reasoning you invent to give it purpose.

Loyalist RP provides a framework for a character. It provides a structure to guide their actions, as well as conflict in that what that character wants or how they act may or may not mesh with the structure and they must try to deal with this in some way. Limitations and restrictions on a character create conflict, and conflict is what drives a story. I'm glad to have limitations. I'm glad to have a structure. I'm glad that my character has a purpose to try and fulfill, and that there are roadblocks on the way of that. And no, this purpose is not such two-dimensional goals such as 'defeat the Republic and win the war'. Yes, that can't be acheived within mechanics, and yes that is dull. Any two-dimensional and uninspired RP is dull. Purpose, for any of the factions, is what is determined by that faction's culture, its beliefs, and where RP lies is in how how these cultures and beliefs interact or clash against the individual wills of the people who uphold them.

When you remove all of that, what are you left with? What is the point of a blank slate that has nothing to guide its motivations and no purpose to fulfill? For me, independent RP is that. There's just no point to it for me. Essentially, I for one prefer and need a collectivist angle in my RP, and so loyalist RP is by far more interesting to me than independent RP.

[Zanzi]

Look guys! I remembered my password!

I'm going to address a post regarding both my current corporation and my previous one here.

Do I dislike Pyre as a whole? No, hell I still like Zanzi he hasn't tried to get me to second guess friends and we generally have a good talk when we are on together.

I can't speak for the others you name dropped here but personally, I dislike that you're using our friendship as a means to make you sound reasonable in an argument against my corp. Frankly it's disrespectful.

As for the sub-sec: Do I dislike some of the things TS-F did:

First the part about the moderation of OOC and other channels; especially ts-f public. While yes it is their channel and they have every right to pick and choose who can be there, as a person who thought we had some good RP with liuni or at least us talking about lore. It was fun while it lasted, only to also be on an alt and have someone (Also in the killmail further below) say they did it on a whim still can urk someone; and again the rest of their leadership standing by the decision....I believe most here would find that an annoyance and harmful to RP especially when none of the rules were broken IC or oocly. But in the context of the following two points, probably a minor one.

For this point, I'm going to have to start with OOC. The idea that TS-F ever moderated OOC is a fallacy, pure and simple. Tib was a summit moderator, and a damned good one, whilst in TS-F he never bent his principles for corpmates, nor was he asked to. If anything he held us more accountable for our actions than non-TS-F members.
 
We also, through Drake hosted the OOC TeamSpeak 3 server, which was also our corp TeamSpeak server for a very long time. Resultantly, there were a lot of TS-F server admins, however we also took pains to make sure that there were non-TS-F admins on the server.

In regards to TS-F Public, it is our channel and you made a personal attack on one of the channel mods, who used his own judgement and powers to remove you for that. I personally condone his decision to exercise his power within that channel. Moreover, your mention of not breaking rules holds no water, as previously mentioned you made an attack on a former TS-F member and were removed for it.

What recently happened to make me just write them off while in Pyre was the fact that a friend ValentinaDM decided to join them because they wanted to do more factionwar and stay in frigates instead of TISHU's bigger doctrines. The Scopeworks was sad to see her go but we wish her well and still do, and even request updates with cheer leading parties. However the day it happened someone I thought of as a friend, who kept me playing eve when the times were tough yet then joined ts-f decided to try and form a wedge between ValentinaDM and myself by saying things like she was a spy the entire time; "how does it feel to be tricked" and generally being a horrid anti-diplomat and antagonist on the verge of being comical if it wasn't an honest try. (You know who you are) Again, that srs rp 'why do people hate us?'

In this case, this is the first time I've heard anything of this. Resultantly I'm disinclined to really give this much credence.

Frankly, as your friend I'd have hoped you'd be able to come to me about someone saying things link this in our group. On a professional level, as head diplomat I implore people to bring this kind of thing to me, with logs and action will be taken accordingly.
Both PY-RE and TS-F hold their members to a standard.

The main problem with what happened that made myself and scopeworks mad before there even was a scope works was https://zkillboard.com/kill/35788890/ Where Deadrow lured Avio (New to pc gaming in the first place) into their system with the -OOC- promise of learning how to rat and PVE. Instead, as you see they blapped him. Now, many might be saying he should have known better he couldn't; it was even and the guy was a mid-teen at the time new to the game with the promise of maybe making a new friend or two with the help of Deadrow telling him now to fit things. What compounded this was that the TS-F corporation instead of saying "Sorry, there is one jerk in every circle" instead laughed at him for a couple months (Along with OOC channel trolling) and even to this day (This week) basically hold the standard of "he should have known better" where even most alliances now teach new people and don't pull such mean tactics.

If there is ever a way to make sure no new people come to eve and no new RPers come out to play; -that- is the way to do it.

I'm going to work from the bottom to top here. Your point is fairly self defeating, insofar as Foley still plays, he's more involved in the RP community now than he was, and frankly has become a very competent PvPer. While what happened with Deadsie didn't have any real bearing on how he's progressed as a character, it certainly didn't drive him away as you claim these kind of actions do.

As for your suggestion that we should have apologise for DeadRow firstly there was an internal process that happened that we kept internal for the sake of professionalism. Secondly, TS-F was a pirate entity in which one of our members adhered to the letter of a rules while bending the spirit of them. As our rules weren't broken we did not feel the need for any disciplinary process to be made public.

Finally as a personal note on this subject, Foley came to Reynire despite being told by the entire OOC channel barring DeadRow himself that it was a trap. The obvious happened and Foley exploded. While he was annoyed at the time, he's since taken it in good spirits.

In conclusion the thought that Pyre is ruining RP is a very limiting thought when CCP has opened up the game mechanic to anyone and everyone without the ability to even shoot the circling outposts. However, with the previous talk about the 'old guard' and the 'new guard' duking it out; nothing brings it to the head as a new RPer coming to EVE from DUST514 and console gaming only to be blapped by TS-F in the height of their moderating days. Unfortunately that is what seemed to culminate my 2014 with RP, repairing the damage done to new players and the 'we aren't all like that' which has to happen way too often when I mention eve on steam or on other games. I am hoping for a better 2015 and I think it will happen with posts from Kala and updates from Valentina saying Pyre is welcoming to new people (Pyre is expanding like no tomorrow) and other corps having a newer person devision instead of 'lol freshmeat time to troll'

To conclude I have to note that PY-RE is not TS-F, the things that TS-F did are not things that PY-RE has done. Again, TS-F never had moderating days, Tib did. PY-RE is and always has been new player friendly, we will continue to be so and we will continue to shoot all of the things in Factional Warfare.

Should you wish to discuss this further, hit me up in game about it.

Zanzi out.

edit: My English is potato.

[Jocca Quinn]

Oh, that adds another reason why I do not roleplay a loyalist: Status Quo. Nothing changes, far as I can see. Any attempt to destroy the Amarr Empire is doomed from the get go due to game-enforced status quo. Trying to reclaim the Republic is also doomed to failure for the same reason. When nothing bloody well changes, except for the superficial change-of-hands of systems in FW systems, all it generates is frustration.

I'm not keen at that. I decided that it's not going to be fun. Having roleplayed in WoW, where NOTHING CHANGES until two expansions later, I decided, you know what? I don't want to roleplay something that is enforced by the status quo.

Screw that crap and go play a freelancer.

This   (unfortunately)

[Lyn Farel]

I have always seen a general lack in loyalists, or at least ones who stick with it. So its nothing new.

Probably because loyalist RP is very restrictive. You limit yourself to 1/4 or 1/2 of all the high and low-sec regions, constantly spout the same slogans like a broken record and maybe even restrict your ship choices. Throw in the fact that you will need to either stop training this loyalist character to train that other character to do whatever or buy another account for the sake of consistently loyal behaviour in the RP character and you get something that is, let's be honest, pretty not fun. And it's not like you can just get to become good at whatever you want to do within just one year either, unless what you want to do is frigate solo combat every day all day, making the transition a bit problematic.

It's basically why I did not make my character a loyalist but instead a privateer. That way if I ever get sick of doing that privateering thing I could just hang in or simply shred that letter of marquee and go take on some other adventure.

I don't know, I have always played the loyalist and it never really bothered me. I never felt it constraining. I have been able to do nullsec stuff in Provi as well as empire wars, then lowsec stuff in Solitude, then FW... I have experienced most of what the game has to offer, even wormholes.

Of course I cheated a little back then. But I was creative. When I left the Amarr bloc to join a gallente loyalist RP corp, I played it as an Amarrian envoy, and the real goal was to help to cleanse the hell out of Solitude in some kind of CONCORD work. Of course it worked better than if it had been now, because it was before TEA and the war. But it was perfectly valid, and in the end cultural conflicts made my character leave the corp in bad terms with some of them after having been recognized as a valuable asset.

So all in all, be creative.  Today though, it's a lot more difficult...

Holy fucking threadnaught.

1) To Pyre. You guys rock, keep doing what you're doing. Wish I was there, etc. I admit to some jealousy and frustration with you all at times, because 1) I am envious of the cohesive, skilled group youve made and 2) I cant really join you OR fight you, so I just kind of get to sit back and watch, but you're all having fun, and that is great.
2) To the people who want to be pirates and loyalists - no. It doesnt work that way. You can be a pirate with loyalist sympathies, but you cannot claim to be upholding an empire when, well, you dont uphold it. Sorry. Keep having fun regardless. You rock. But youre not RPing loyalists. That doesnt mean you shouldnt do it! Just expect some teeth gnashing, most of which I understand.
3) To the community in general: Sometimes, the IC/OOC divide has to be broken. Sometimes, it hurts. I spent six months as New Eden's Most Hated for the whole Coleile mess, which was, you know, CCP's story, not mine. Sorry that I wanted to take part in the ONE live event that both involved minmatar AND was actually at a time i could attend, but I did, and well... it fucking sucked. Sometimes, things happen for OOC reasons; that doesnt give anyone the right to single anyone out for extra RP shunning.
4) To CCP: FW fucking sucks. Period. You have managed to destroy everything about eve i loved, starting with the losec static plexes and ending with FW. Maybe someday you'll unfuck it, but frankly, I don't think I want to wait around, wringing my hands and hoping.

You know what the no 1 source of RP for me is anymore? People RPing NOT RPing with me. In bars, amarr and caldari emote ignoring me. People make a point of telling me i am not invited to RP events. Guess what? THIS ISNT FUN. This brings us back to the whole "oh, just make your own content". Really? I'll just RP with myself, then.

Am I bitter? FUCK YES. Why wouldnt I be?

A lot of people in this thread need to step back and breathe. Me included.

I didn't know it went that way... I wonder exactly what make people start to exclude you OOCly (through RP) added to ICly...

Anyway, Lyn has always been kind of fond of Ava so you are welcome to RP as much as you want... Just need time to get back from vacations next week...

[Lyn Farel]

Oh, that adds another reason why I do not roleplay a loyalist: Status Quo. Nothing changes, far as I can see. Any attempt to destroy the Amarr Empire is doomed from the get go due to game-enforced status quo. Trying to reclaim the Republic is also doomed to failure for the same reason. When nothing bloody well changes, except for the superficial change-of-hands of systems in FW systems, all it generates is frustration.

I'm not keen at that. I decided that it's not going to be fun. Having roleplayed in WoW, where NOTHING CHANGES until two expansions later, I decided, you know what? I don't want to roleplay something that is enforced by the status quo.

Screw that crap and go play a freelancer.

Again, FW kind of asks for that, but being a loyalist outside is a lot more free, albeit a bit less these days since it's war and all, and not just the old subtler cold war setting with CONCORD on top of it, granted.

Something that was horribly annoying the years past TEA was that you always got curbstomped ICly by every so called loyalist bloc for not being in FW and so not doing your part for your faction. It was understandable from some elements ICly, but it still was extremely annoying because it also bled terribly OOCly.

Anyway now, it should be less present and since RP has become rather anemic in proportion, it shouldn't be too hard to find valuable ways to be a loyalist outside of FW.

Without FW though, I would already be involed in some kind of bridge between factions project, but now that they are in a war... :/

[Halcyon]

My RP at the moment is fairly simple
Non conflict and non aggression in a game where 90% of people tell me I have to PvP to "play the game" or "Enjoy myself"
Over time I try and work myself to be thoroughly neutral, at the moment I'm still erring on good and telling people that their murdering is wrong. We'll see. I've declared my corp as non aggressive and essentially neutral so if you want to visit my place and tell me why I shouldn't hate your faction, by all means do so.

[Silas Vitalia]

@ Liuani,

I'm not sure the best way to say it, but people are going to shoot people in EVE all the time for the lols, it's a thing. Talk to the person if you are that concerned for their emotional well being at losing?  Other than that your post is reading very rawr at TSF which is just silly talk


@ Jikahr,

There's been a ton of people begging CCP for all faction faction warfare for years   Civil wars, pirate factions, there's no damn reason why they can't implement the gameplay for other border regions.  We've been smoking that crack idea pipe on backstage for a long time

Then again maybe they realize how shit it is and don't want to ruin the rest of their regions.




As for RP in general I think current players just have to really put some self-imposed blinders on to the overall cluster and state of things, put up some high walls around what topics to talk about or try to influence, and play in a very small sandbox with other capsuleers.   I think there's plenty of world-building and adventure to be had between capsuleers, but it is no longer a thing where you are going to do something for faction A against other capsuleers for faction B and have any change in the storyline.

[Gaven Lok ri]

The unchanging nature of FW is one of the places where that whole part of EVE feels abandoned. I don't think *anyone* six years ago thought that FW's warzones would still be the same static ones that they are now.

[Elmund Egivand]

Oh, that adds another reason why I do not roleplay a loyalist: Status Quo. Nothing changes, far as I can see. Any attempt to destroy the Amarr Empire is doomed from the get go due to game-enforced status quo. Trying to reclaim the Republic is also doomed to failure for the same reason. When nothing bloody well changes, except for the superficial change-of-hands of systems in FW systems, all it generates is frustration.

I'm not keen at that. I decided that it's not going to be fun. Having roleplayed in WoW, where NOTHING CHANGES until two expansions later, I decided, you know what? I don't want to roleplay something that is enforced by the status quo.

Screw that crap and go play a freelancer.

Again, FW kind of asks for that, but being a loyalist outside is a lot more free, albeit a bit less these days since it's war and all, and not just the old subtler cold war setting with CONCORD on top of it, granted.

Something that was horribly annoying the years past TEA was that you always got curbstomped ICly by every so called loyalist bloc for not being in FW and so not doing your part for your faction. It was understandable from some elements ICly, but it still was extremely annoying because it also bled terribly OOCly.

Anyway now, it should be less present and since RP has become rather anemic in proportion, it shouldn't be too hard to find valuable ways to be a loyalist outside of FW.

Without FW though, I would already be involed in some kind of bridge between factions project, but now that they are in a war... :/

Those are among my reasons though. I have more, but those have nothing to do with game mechanics and more to do with mindsets I like to get into and mindsets I like to avoid.